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#303691 - 11/04/17 12:36 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all


But back in the real world, if Sanders had been the Democratic candidate by the time Republicans got through screaming "COMMIE" in every medium, he would have got maybe 10% of the votes. Not won the popular vote by millions like Clinton.


I keep hearing that but I keep realizing that the only people that the dreaded red baiting "COMMIE" tag works on are people who would never vote for ANY Democrat because, for them, ALL Democrats are commies, and even a few Republicans. Ike Eisenhower was branded a commie sympathizer by those people.

No one who thinks of voting for a Democrat takes red baiting seriously.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#303696 - 11/04/17 02:02 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7094
Loc: North San Diego County
I don't think that is true. There are PLENTY of people who are not very politically sophisticated but know you don't vote for a communist. Lots of them vote Democratic because their family has always voted Democratic probably because of stuff that happened back in the 50's with labor unions. I think Sanders would have lost all those old blue collar democrats.

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#303698 - 11/04/17 02:43 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
I have heard to many republicans and independents state they would have voted for sanders if given the chance.
The idea that Sanders would be given a chance go run in the democratic primary as a farce is the height of patronization and disingenuousness. Not to mention there was also other democrats running. Let's set them aside for the moment though. Are we now saying the first candidate that can exert control over the parties committee before the primary gets the nomination? My mistake,
I thought it was to be decided by the voters. Has the Democratic Party resolved itself into nominating its candidates thru palace intrigue? Perhaps Sanders was right that it was a process of anointing.
There is no progressive left wing of the Democratic Party. If you don't understand why after this charade of a nominating process then I can't imagine what more there can be shown to illuminate the problems within it. My fear is that it has been allowed to be so co-opted by special interest money and neoliberal mindset that it can no longer be considered an effective counter force to the growing facism. We could use some of those labor unions right about now for the coming struggles. If Dems can't differentiate between progressive liberalism and regressive neoliberalism the future looks grim. If you can't have an honest debate and have to bury them a odd times during major televised distraction your scared you can't win on them. If you have to put a fix in on the fight your afraid you'll lose if it's fought fairly.
I'm becoming more and more convinced that as the evidence mounts of the grift and corruption between the DNC and the Clinton's and the inability of the party elites to recognize the problems within the party and course correct, that they still don't know what time it is in the country.
I would also say that the beginning of the end may have begun with BIll Clinton's administrations 'third way' rebranding.



Edited by chunkstyle (11/04/17 02:50 AM)

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#303699 - 11/04/17 04:21 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7094
Loc: North San Diego County
Nonsense, Sanders had his chances to run in the primaries and he lost. You don't think if he trounced Clinton the superdelegates would not have jumped on board? But in order for that to happen he had to actually win. It didn't happen.

And once he was confirmed as the candidate, the Republicans would have screamed "COMMIE" non-stop until the election and also "child molester" because of some pro-child liberation stuff he wrote decades ago. They never attacked him because they wanted him to win: He was the most easily defeated candidate. The Socialists would have been happy he was the Democratic candidate but he would have got about 10% of the vote. Essentially just the hardline Socialists because the Democrats would have been frightened away from him.

Just look at what 30 years of Republican mudslinging did to Clinton and she never did anything wrong. Imagine what they could have done with a Socialist! Lots of Sanders supporters were in his camp not for the issues but "because Hillary is a crook", which is a totally Republican-fabricated idea.

Republican-fabricated but also pushed to millions of people by Russian troll farmers, we now discover. Any American still pushing the "Crooked Hillary" idea is either a Republican or a Russian dupe.

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#303700 - 11/04/17 04:46 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Nonsense, Sanders had his chances to run in the primaries and he lost. You don't think if he trounced Clinton the superdelegates would not have jumped on board? But in order for that to happen he had to actually win. It didn't happen.

And once he was confirmed as the candidate, the Republicans would have screamed "COMMIE" non-stop until the election and also "child molester" because of some pro-child liberation stuff he wrote decades ago. They never attacked him because they wanted him to win: He was the most easily defeated candidate. The Socialists would have been happy he was the Democratic candidate but he would have got about 10% of the vote. Essentially just the hardline Socialists because the Democrats would have been frightened away from him.

Just look at what 30 years of Republican mudslinging did to Clinton and she never did anything wrong. Imagine what they could have done with a Socialist! Lots of Sanders supporters were in his camp not for the issues but "because Hillary is a crook", which is a totally Republican-fabricated idea.

Republican-fabricated but also pushed to millions of people by Russian troll farmers, we now discover. Any American still pushing the "Crooked Hillary" idea is either a Republican or a Russian dupe.


You have not responded at all to the DNC/Clinton scandal PIA. The hypotheticals of what the republicans would have smeared him with was distracting but not enough to ignore the rigging of the primary.
Are you good then with a handfull of elites deciding who you will get to vote for? You sound like you are.......
As I said, it wasn't just sanders, there were other candidates as well. Are you okay with one major political party getting a loan from a future nominee to bend the rules and raised money towards that nominee? I have to wonder if the teams jerseys were red, instead of blue, would you be as easy about it or would you have any derision to share on team reds behavior and it's lemming like followers?


Edited by chunkstyle (11/04/17 04:50 AM)

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#303701 - 11/04/17 04:47 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Oh wait,
That is done here on a daily basis. I say a pox on both houses.

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#303702 - 11/04/17 06:02 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7094
Loc: North San Diego County
I did have a chance to vote for either Sanders or Clinton and I voted for Clinton because I knew Sanders would lose very badly. I actually liked a lot of Sanders positions but you know what? I would rather win with 80% of what I like than lose with a 90% candidate. It does NO GOOD to lose with a better candidate.

Yes, I don't think there was any DNC/Clinton scandal. I think Brazile has sold out now that she is out of a job. I really have no problem with the Democratic candidate having a tighter connection to the Democratic Party than somebody who says he is only a Democrat for the election and then switches back to being a Socialist. His ploy didn't work and I think that is exactly what it was. If all the Party officials wanted the person who had been working for the Party for decades over the outsider, then I (and most Democrats) think that is fine.

Parties are NOT completely democratic, which is why they have superdelegates. It lets people with a lot more commitment to the Party have more influence than pure democracy. This defeats a lot of mischief like cross-party voting to nominate the candidate you see as the most easy to defeat. If you are all upset about it, I suggest you join Sanders in the Socialist Party.

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#303703 - 11/04/17 06:31 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7094
Loc: North San Diego County
I wonder just how much internet traffic for Sanders was generated by the Russian Troll Farm. They hit millions of Americans with "Clinton is Crooked" messages. I wonder how many of those drove the left away from Clinton in spite of it all being Republican mudslinging. I saw some real visceral hate for Clinton among Sanders supporters, and for what reason? Were they all Socialists? I don't think so. There just are not that many Socialists in America where so many have 401Ks and own stock.

Were they mad because she is just too practical and her husband triangulated so he could actually accomplish so much in his administration? Seems like a pretty flimsy excuse for so much hate. Too centrist, so she should die!

I suspect that a lot of Bernie Bros were there because they fell for the Republican Big Lie, and then got it amplified by the Russian Troll Farm. That's why so many of them stayed home after Bernie conceded or even voted for Trump, the exact opposite of Sanders.

The sad thing, is that the Troll Farm is not even pro-Trump. Immediately after the election they started posting en masse about how unqualified Trump is! They just want America to be as screwed up as possible. And people are STILL listening to them. It was very important to them that we not have competent leadership because stuff like the Magnitsky Act was threatening Putin's fortune and grip on power.

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#303704 - 11/04/17 10:13 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
To think that Sanders did is well as he did must have been a result of russian trolling is delusional. To accept that a parties nomination contest can be bought in advance of the contest is simply institutionalizing corruption. 'He wasn't really a Democrat anyway so Waddya expect?' Is weak rationalizing.
Hillary lost for for a lot of reasons. Until the Democratic Party accepts those reasons and stops scapegoating I don't have a lot of faith in their future prospects. There are real systemic problems with neoliberalism that are only going to get worse and drive us further towards facism without an alternative. To many voters Clinton represented the status quo that helped institutionalize the real and growing problems we have in this country. Russians could only exploit the divisions that were already there. They simply borrowed a page out of our book.
Clinton had real flaws. Those flaws could be and were exploited by Trump. They weren't all lies. Donna Brazile seems to be capitolizing on them to sell her book in much the same way Trump took advantage of them to win the election.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/04/17 11:24 AM)

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#303709 - 11/04/17 05:16 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12728
Loc: Whittier, California
I'll just leave this here:

Russia paid for Facebook ads promoting Jill Stein

I'm sure they also paid for the army of online trolls who decimated
EVERY SINGLE Bernie Sanders group on Facebook.
Even now, even today...if you visit any of the Bernie pages, there's a dedicated troll army in the comments section.
It's impossible to have a sane, rational discussion on the issues, because you will be inundated with troll comments.
Been that way since three months before the election.
PS: Many of those Bernie pages mysteriously morphed into Jill Stein
pages WITHOUT changing the NAME.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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