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#303582 - 10/28/17 06:37 PM the democratic plan to win
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I keep reading and hearing about the Democratic lack of identity and their lack of a plan to attack. Trump has put an agenda on the table which they can attack without ever mentioning his name. His housing guy is clueless, the budget is going to reduce medicare by 500 BILLION dollars (and cut a lot of other stuff), our government stand on the environment lets, pretty much, anybody to do anything. the Lying Jackass has presented the dems with opportunities. They don't have to promise the world just promise to fix gov. I am not sure that they shouldn't also go after the 1% just on principle.

Just a thought...............

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#303585 - 10/28/17 08:35 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15531
I agree that the Democrats have a huge opportunity if they can take it: FAIR tax reform, competent government, real concern for the working man. Trump represents maybe 20% of the population, but he has exposed the plaucity of Republican ideas. If they focus on core AMERICAN values, they can do what FDR did in the 30s-40s. Unite and conquer.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#303588 - 10/28/17 09:57 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
Just promise to fix everything Trump has broken. They really need to pound in that message: "Trump = broken". Every other sentence out of a Democratic candidate's mouth should allude to "Trump = broken".

Then restore all the rules, put competent people in charge of agencies, put the inheritance tax exemption back to 5 million, and put the income tax rates and rules back to what they are now.

The average voter needs simple catch phrases these days. No more elaborate economic theories that lose the audience, no matter how smart the candidates are.

Maybe in the next election, the catch phrase could be "No morons allowed".

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#303590 - 10/29/17 01:55 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40554
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


(10/27/17)
Two Dems different views on how Dems win. Who's correct, Joy or Van?



_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#303592 - 10/29/17 04:12 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Legalize weed, Medicare for all, campaign finance reform, large jobs package centered on infrastructure and energy grid . Basically Bernie Sanders.

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#303597 - 10/29/17 08:53 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I watched some of the hearings they had on the energy grid when Obama thought he could fix it. It was an incredible mess. Seems that EVERYBODY has something to say about the energy grid from a plain citizen and each step up through gov, ie, citizen, town/city, county, state, fed and all the various agencies up through all of that. The only way that any part of the grid is going to get fixed is for it to completely fail (and that could actually happen! (its old, vulnerable to hacking, tired, and pretty shaky)). Then there will be a chance. Hopefully, somebody in go has put together a plan, and updated it regularly as tech changes, to create/fix/rebuild any given grid if its necessary.

I know, more wishful thinking <sigh>

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#303606 - 10/30/17 01:42 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15531
I think that there is a great deal of sentiment that the Democratic party can win by BECOMING the "common sense" party. They have better ideas on taxes, healthcare, the economy, social justice... Really, almost everything. They just don't sell them as well as the hucksters.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#303608 - 10/30/17 04:26 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12728
Loc: Whittier, California
They don't sell them at all, they CAVE.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#303610 - 10/30/17 05:28 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Caving might not be as accurate as they pander?
Like the right, they have said all the right emotional things that make them sound like progressives but their legislative actions don't back it up.
The obstacles thrown in front of Sanders campaign by the DNC illustrated to me the extent of the rot in that party (I won't even bring up the recent purge at the DNC of the Sanders and Ellison people).

Trump represents the rot that has settled into the republican party and it's media machine.

Democrats are captured as much as the Republicans by the Powell Memorandum. We've had neoliberalism from both parties ever since with all it's accumulated social, civic, economic and now scientific damage, IMHO.

A true inclusive populist (such as we had in Sanders) that can unite the left and right and drop the red team blue team distractions ( as Sanders managed to do, evidenced by polling during the primaries) would be a good start.

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#303613 - 10/30/17 06:33 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Oh and terminal environmental damage should also be on that neoliberal contribution.
Lemme ask: who do you think has visited DAVOS in the last two decades? Clinton or Sanders?

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#303622 - 10/31/17 05:15 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Its true - the dems do have better plans. The dems are also, historically, better for the debt (the right just decided to gamble and run up the debt over a trillion dollars). The problem with the dems is that they don't communicate and ALLOW the right to lie their heads off with nary a peep from the left. The the left was serious they would start fighting back! It is, for instance, no mystery how Hillary got demonized - she never questioned any of the lies, for over 30 years, she just took it because, I guess, she was above that kind of nastiness (and look where that got her!).

The card carrying, signed up dems also need to take back their own party. Bernie is proud not to be a democrat. That's fine with me. My problem is that the Dems just rolled over for him and allowed him to run as a Democrat. Its insane. If the dems actually want to win they have to lay down some general planks and make sure that ANYBODY running under their banner subscribes to those planks. They should also insist that anybody running under their banner be a member of their party. I can remember when the communists tried a takeover of the Democratic party and that was simply not allowed. Now, any yahoo can run as anything, irregardless of party membership, beliefs, or anything else. This is simply crazy. The trick for the Dems is to lay out a set of principles that define them and is loose enough so that most folks on the left and middle can support them, right now nobody really knows what the hell they stand for and its the causes that cause the problems. A good example us abortion. For some strange reason you cannot be a dem and not believe that abortion is just dandy. I would submit that there are probably a bunch of people against abortion who also believe that reducing things like medicare and medicaid is a bad idea as is pouring poison from coal mining into running water is a bad idea but, because of the abortion thing these people are throwed out of the party. Causes <sigh> The left and right, for a very long time, simply were names of people who had a basic belief in what was right and its all, basically, about regulation. The problem with the dems is that they tend to go too far, the problem with the right is that they too go too far (we are not a people noted for moderation, I fear). This is why its important that each side sit down with the other and find if there is any common ground at all but to do that 'causes' should probably be left out of the conversation?

Another example is murder. I think that both sides can agree that murder is not a good thing. The trick, in this case, is that both sides first agree that its bad, define 'bad', and then put forward their views on to fix it. I suspect that both sides would find common ground rather quickly. Again, the trick is to pick the battles (not the causes) define, describe, and find a solution that everybody can live with.

Just a thought.................

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#303629 - 11/01/17 01:56 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Democrats moved to the right with Clinton and pretty much took over the moderate republican position. Bernie is the last vestige of the new deal democrats with the exception of his consistant approval of the war dept. budgets.
To not recognize the Sanders positions being predominantly moderate democratic positions of 40 years ago and to resent him running as a democrat would appear to me to be another sign of the success of the slow rightward drift. The Clingons went all in with neoliberalism while harking to liberal themes all the while passing neoliberal legislation. Obama wasn't much better and in some cases worse.
The right has been so crowded out of the middle ground that they've wound up in far right facist territory. The left is effectively dead. The march rightward continues. We continue to view the political terrain as left/ right instead of where were at, moderate right/ fascism struggle.
The actual progressive left has seen its party coopted. When they saw Bernie they saw what they had been looking for. A true progressive populist. I know of two car loads of supporters that took the 50 mile trip, one way, to hear him speak at a packed sports stadium. Hillary wished she had such enthusiasm.
People were ready to trust in progressive populism, they were there for it. Bernie was the man for the times. The Democratic Party, in the service of the donor class, had to shut him down.
Many progressives didn't vote, some yearning for a populist went with Trump. The democrats are blaming the Russians for the loss and resenting Bernie. He was saying the wrong things for the democratic corporate sponsers. True progressive politics can win. If only the Democratic Party could remember what that is.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/01/17 01:59 AM)

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#303632 - 11/01/17 11:51 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15531
What does Hillary Clinton believe? Where the candidate stands on 12 issues - PBS News Hour. 2016 Democratic Platform. It's mostly there. Did we forget how much of a populist Obama was?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#303638 - 11/01/17 03:04 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
What does Hillary Clinton believe? Where the candidate stands on 12 issues - PBS News Hour. 2016 Democratic Platform. It's mostly there. Did we forget how much of a populist Obama was?


After reading that link to Hillary's positions, I'm convinced of the possibility that you do not know what progressive liberal policies are NWP. SHe is and has been a servant of corporate interest and the top 10%
Tax credits? Tax credits........
WE DONT NEED NO STINKING TAX CREDITS!!!!!
Tax credits are reserved for those earning enough to be able to take advantage of them. For the mojarity of us that is not a consideration let alone having the up front cash to take advantage of tax credits.
Not the time for single payer? Well when is a good time?
ETc...etc...etc...
She is not a liberal progressive. She's first and foremost a coporate democrat. AKA a centrists republican.
This is a problem with the Democratic party. They don't see (or are paid not to) a true progressive democrat when it's in front of their face. Nor does it seem they remember what one is.

what we don't hear from mainstream DEMS

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#303639 - 11/01/17 03:40 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Obama was not a populist. He merely spoke the language of a populist to elicit an emotional response. It didn't hurt that he looked radically different as well.
Comparing his actions for dealing with the banking scandals to those of FDR's is a way in which to measure how much of a populist Obama was.
The teachable moments were nice though.......

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#303643 - 11/01/17 05:44 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Here's a recent example of what the democratic party used to sound like
Gone but now forgotten yet

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#303686 - 11/03/17 09:45 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
I am curious to the sound of crickets over the Clinton election strategy that has been revealed by the confessions from Donna Brazile. She has vindicated what the Bernie camp had been saying thruout the primary. The DNC, supposedly a neutral facilitator of the contest, had been co-opted by Clinton money before the primary begun. A classic example of he who pays the coin calls the tune.
In the rabidness of our red team blue team duopoly there seems to be no wrongs that can be done by either teams champion. IMO, this has lead to both parties falling behind deeply flawed candidates. This tribalism is so powerful that it blinds the loyalists to the rot settling into their parties foundations. A clear example of winning arguments was in front of the citizenry but money, well applied, ruled the day.
Sanders arguments became Clintons arguments to co-op his supporters in much the same way the Clintons co-opted the DNC and subsequent primary race.
Instead of facing the hubris and lies of the democratic party THey're caught in a cheap spiral of scapegoating and excuse crafting.
Even now Sanders 'the same old ways of doing things in the democratic party isn't working' seems prophetic yet here we are.
'Sanders wasn't really a Democrat...'
'Sanders was a spoiler like Ralph Nader'
'the Russians...'
etc etc etc.....

Was the behind the scenes coup of the DNC by the Clintons more fruitful than the loud,angry and entertaining hostile take over of the RNC by Trump or did Sanders call it?

Will Democrats look in the mirror at long last or continue to blame everything else for their misfortunes and continue to listen to those neoliberal Ozark hustlers who "feel your pain"?






Edited by chunkstyle (11/03/17 09:48 PM)

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#303687 - 11/03/17 10:23 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15531
Wow, chunk, seems a nerve was stimulated. I agree that there are degrees of both populism and progressivism. But I don't believe in puritanism from either side of the aisle.

By the way, I think you mistake tax credits for deductions. Credits are EXACTLY what helps the less well off., especially refundable credits. Childcare, healthcare, education, etc, are what brings the tax burden down most for those who need it most. Deductions helps them who already have money.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#303688 - 11/03/17 11:09 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
I thought the fact that Clinton made a deal to raise money for the Party was pretty much how these things work. Does any candidate for President ever NOT do this? Did Sanders not say he was going to support the Party and this was somehow unfair?

I think it was pretty obvious all along that Clinton was the Party candidate (for years and years) and Sanders was the Socialist who was just a Democrat in-name-only trying to use the Party to get elected. Now Socialists are all crying unfair, when actually Sanders should have just run as a Socialist candidate.

On the other hand, Sanders is welcome to become a Democrat any time he wants. The Party would be happy to have him, since we need more voices from the left within the Party. He and Warren could form a left-leaning caucus.

But back in the real world, if Sanders had been the Democratic candidate by the time Republicans got through screaming "COMMIE" in every medium, he would have got maybe 10% of the votes. Not won the popular vote by millions like Clinton.

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#303690 - 11/03/17 11:35 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
There is, currently, a LOT of whining over Bernie Sanders and the Democrats. I really do not understand. Why, for instance, would a self confessed Socialist even want to run as a Democrat whilst, at the same time, denying that he is a Democrat. This is, from my view, EXACTLY what is wrong with both parties. The real Democrats, those who paid their dues and are signed up members of the party have to take charge of THEIR party! Then they can do all the rest, state what, exactly they are for and against and what they stand for AS DEMOCRATS. Once that gets done they can get down to business. Right now, who knows? What does "Democrat" even mean?

The same thing applies to the Republicans. They too are being hijacked by outsiders and have remained even more silent than the Democrats. In either case who know what the hell they stand for. Its probably really time to start some new parties so everybody else will know, exactly, who stands for what because, right now, its not real easy to figure it out.

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#303691 - 11/04/17 12:36 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all


But back in the real world, if Sanders had been the Democratic candidate by the time Republicans got through screaming "COMMIE" in every medium, he would have got maybe 10% of the votes. Not won the popular vote by millions like Clinton.


I keep hearing that but I keep realizing that the only people that the dreaded red baiting "COMMIE" tag works on are people who would never vote for ANY Democrat because, for them, ALL Democrats are commies, and even a few Republicans. Ike Eisenhower was branded a commie sympathizer by those people.

No one who thinks of voting for a Democrat takes red baiting seriously.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#303696 - 11/04/17 02:02 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
I don't think that is true. There are PLENTY of people who are not very politically sophisticated but know you don't vote for a communist. Lots of them vote Democratic because their family has always voted Democratic probably because of stuff that happened back in the 50's with labor unions. I think Sanders would have lost all those old blue collar democrats.

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#303698 - 11/04/17 02:43 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
I have heard to many republicans and independents state they would have voted for sanders if given the chance.
The idea that Sanders would be given a chance go run in the democratic primary as a farce is the height of patronization and disingenuousness. Not to mention there was also other democrats running. Let's set them aside for the moment though. Are we now saying the first candidate that can exert control over the parties committee before the primary gets the nomination? My mistake,
I thought it was to be decided by the voters. Has the Democratic Party resolved itself into nominating its candidates thru palace intrigue? Perhaps Sanders was right that it was a process of anointing.
There is no progressive left wing of the Democratic Party. If you don't understand why after this charade of a nominating process then I can't imagine what more there can be shown to illuminate the problems within it. My fear is that it has been allowed to be so co-opted by special interest money and neoliberal mindset that it can no longer be considered an effective counter force to the growing facism. We could use some of those labor unions right about now for the coming struggles. If Dems can't differentiate between progressive liberalism and regressive neoliberalism the future looks grim. If you can't have an honest debate and have to bury them a odd times during major televised distraction your scared you can't win on them. If you have to put a fix in on the fight your afraid you'll lose if it's fought fairly.
I'm becoming more and more convinced that as the evidence mounts of the grift and corruption between the DNC and the Clinton's and the inability of the party elites to recognize the problems within the party and course correct, that they still don't know what time it is in the country.
I would also say that the beginning of the end may have begun with BIll Clinton's administrations 'third way' rebranding.



Edited by chunkstyle (11/04/17 02:50 AM)

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#303699 - 11/04/17 04:21 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
Nonsense, Sanders had his chances to run in the primaries and he lost. You don't think if he trounced Clinton the superdelegates would not have jumped on board? But in order for that to happen he had to actually win. It didn't happen.

And once he was confirmed as the candidate, the Republicans would have screamed "COMMIE" non-stop until the election and also "child molester" because of some pro-child liberation stuff he wrote decades ago. They never attacked him because they wanted him to win: He was the most easily defeated candidate. The Socialists would have been happy he was the Democratic candidate but he would have got about 10% of the vote. Essentially just the hardline Socialists because the Democrats would have been frightened away from him.

Just look at what 30 years of Republican mudslinging did to Clinton and she never did anything wrong. Imagine what they could have done with a Socialist! Lots of Sanders supporters were in his camp not for the issues but "because Hillary is a crook", which is a totally Republican-fabricated idea.

Republican-fabricated but also pushed to millions of people by Russian troll farmers, we now discover. Any American still pushing the "Crooked Hillary" idea is either a Republican or a Russian dupe.

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#303700 - 11/04/17 04:46 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Nonsense, Sanders had his chances to run in the primaries and he lost. You don't think if he trounced Clinton the superdelegates would not have jumped on board? But in order for that to happen he had to actually win. It didn't happen.

And once he was confirmed as the candidate, the Republicans would have screamed "COMMIE" non-stop until the election and also "child molester" because of some pro-child liberation stuff he wrote decades ago. They never attacked him because they wanted him to win: He was the most easily defeated candidate. The Socialists would have been happy he was the Democratic candidate but he would have got about 10% of the vote. Essentially just the hardline Socialists because the Democrats would have been frightened away from him.

Just look at what 30 years of Republican mudslinging did to Clinton and she never did anything wrong. Imagine what they could have done with a Socialist! Lots of Sanders supporters were in his camp not for the issues but "because Hillary is a crook", which is a totally Republican-fabricated idea.

Republican-fabricated but also pushed to millions of people by Russian troll farmers, we now discover. Any American still pushing the "Crooked Hillary" idea is either a Republican or a Russian dupe.


You have not responded at all to the DNC/Clinton scandal PIA. The hypotheticals of what the republicans would have smeared him with was distracting but not enough to ignore the rigging of the primary.
Are you good then with a handfull of elites deciding who you will get to vote for? You sound like you are.......
As I said, it wasn't just sanders, there were other candidates as well. Are you okay with one major political party getting a loan from a future nominee to bend the rules and raised money towards that nominee? I have to wonder if the teams jerseys were red, instead of blue, would you be as easy about it or would you have any derision to share on team reds behavior and it's lemming like followers?


Edited by chunkstyle (11/04/17 04:50 AM)

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#303701 - 11/04/17 04:47 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Oh wait,
That is done here on a daily basis. I say a pox on both houses.

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#303702 - 11/04/17 06:02 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
I did have a chance to vote for either Sanders or Clinton and I voted for Clinton because I knew Sanders would lose very badly. I actually liked a lot of Sanders positions but you know what? I would rather win with 80% of what I like than lose with a 90% candidate. It does NO GOOD to lose with a better candidate.

Yes, I don't think there was any DNC/Clinton scandal. I think Brazile has sold out now that she is out of a job. I really have no problem with the Democratic candidate having a tighter connection to the Democratic Party than somebody who says he is only a Democrat for the election and then switches back to being a Socialist. His ploy didn't work and I think that is exactly what it was. If all the Party officials wanted the person who had been working for the Party for decades over the outsider, then I (and most Democrats) think that is fine.

Parties are NOT completely democratic, which is why they have superdelegates. It lets people with a lot more commitment to the Party have more influence than pure democracy. This defeats a lot of mischief like cross-party voting to nominate the candidate you see as the most easy to defeat. If you are all upset about it, I suggest you join Sanders in the Socialist Party.

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#303703 - 11/04/17 06:31 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
I wonder just how much internet traffic for Sanders was generated by the Russian Troll Farm. They hit millions of Americans with "Clinton is Crooked" messages. I wonder how many of those drove the left away from Clinton in spite of it all being Republican mudslinging. I saw some real visceral hate for Clinton among Sanders supporters, and for what reason? Were they all Socialists? I don't think so. There just are not that many Socialists in America where so many have 401Ks and own stock.

Were they mad because she is just too practical and her husband triangulated so he could actually accomplish so much in his administration? Seems like a pretty flimsy excuse for so much hate. Too centrist, so she should die!

I suspect that a lot of Bernie Bros were there because they fell for the Republican Big Lie, and then got it amplified by the Russian Troll Farm. That's why so many of them stayed home after Bernie conceded or even voted for Trump, the exact opposite of Sanders.

The sad thing, is that the Troll Farm is not even pro-Trump. Immediately after the election they started posting en masse about how unqualified Trump is! They just want America to be as screwed up as possible. And people are STILL listening to them. It was very important to them that we not have competent leadership because stuff like the Magnitsky Act was threatening Putin's fortune and grip on power.

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#303704 - 11/04/17 10:13 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
To think that Sanders did is well as he did must have been a result of russian trolling is delusional. To accept that a parties nomination contest can be bought in advance of the contest is simply institutionalizing corruption. 'He wasn't really a Democrat anyway so Waddya expect?' Is weak rationalizing.
Hillary lost for for a lot of reasons. Until the Democratic Party accepts those reasons and stops scapegoating I don't have a lot of faith in their future prospects. There are real systemic problems with neoliberalism that are only going to get worse and drive us further towards facism without an alternative. To many voters Clinton represented the status quo that helped institutionalize the real and growing problems we have in this country. Russians could only exploit the divisions that were already there. They simply borrowed a page out of our book.
Clinton had real flaws. Those flaws could be and were exploited by Trump. They weren't all lies. Donna Brazile seems to be capitolizing on them to sell her book in much the same way Trump took advantage of them to win the election.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/04/17 11:24 AM)

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#303709 - 11/04/17 05:16 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12728
Loc: Whittier, California
I'll just leave this here:

Russia paid for Facebook ads promoting Jill Stein

I'm sure they also paid for the army of online trolls who decimated
EVERY SINGLE Bernie Sanders group on Facebook.
Even now, even today...if you visit any of the Bernie pages, there's a dedicated troll army in the comments section.
It's impossible to have a sane, rational discussion on the issues, because you will be inundated with troll comments.
Been that way since three months before the election.
PS: Many of those Bernie pages mysteriously morphed into Jill Stein
pages WITHOUT changing the NAME.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#303711 - 11/04/17 08:03 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Clinton had real flaws


Yeah, she's too centrist in a time that we are being pushed to extremism with a lot of Russian help. I'm basing this on info that just came out within the last couple of weeks in testimony by internet companies before Congress. It's not delusional: It's sworn testimony by Facebook, Google, etc. lawyers. Maybe you have not been keeping up.

Just as an example, Russian trolls spent about $200 to create two web pages and then take them viral with their bot army. One page promoted an anti-Muslim patriotic American isolationist rally for a particular city at a certain time and date. The other page promoted a rally in the same place and time for Muslim understanding. The Russians were playing "Let's you and him fight." And they have done this many many times, even before the latest Presidential races.

According to you, Clinton's big fault is that she is a neoliberal. I've got some news for you: So are most Democrats. Bill Clinton did not invent world trade or moving low-skill jobs overseas. It was already happening, and there was NOTHING he could do to stop it. So he chose to look at it's positive benefits and concentrate on them. Sure, we don't get to make TVs or solar panels any more, but we can BUY really cheap giant flat TVs and really cheap solar panels. The future proceeds, and fighting it is like beating the incoming tide with a stick.

This globalization is actually inevitable: After WW II we were the only developed country left essentially intact. We had almost no attacks on the mainland US, so all of our manufacturing infrastructure was unharmed while the rest of the world's was in tatters. We enjoyed great wealth as a result, but now that so many other nations have rebuilt we have to share that wealth with billions of other people. Unless you favor the idea of enslaving the rest of the world and keeping them poor. I suppose we could do that.

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#303717 - 11/04/17 09:57 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all

This globalization is actually inevitable: After WW II we were the only developed country left essentially intact. We had almost no attacks on the mainland US, so all of our manufacturing infrastructure was unharmed while the rest of the world's was in tatters. We enjoyed great wealth as a result, but now that so many other nations have rebuilt we have to share that wealth with billions of other people. Unless you favor the idea of enslaving the rest of the world and keeping them poor. I suppose we could do that.


The difference is, at the close of WW2 we had The Marshall Plan which included some regulated means of helping countries rebuild their economies and manufacturing while doing at least a modicum to support our own.
In other words, there was some regulation that was good for both parties, or all parties.
At the dawn of the Reagan era, we essentially gave away the entire store, plus the keys, plus the combination to the safe, plus the inventory, plus the client list.
Nothing was left to chance, no stone was left unturned, we flat out slammed the door on American manufacturing and told them "Drop dead".

And we didn't just open trade from other countries, we regulated our own out of existence. We made it so difficult to make flat panel displays over here that companies just gave up, just as one example.

We didn't just welcome rare earth metals processing from China, we sold 100% of our own TO China. Magnaquench closed its doors at a time when our defense industry was totally dependent upon their output.
Now we buy 100% of our rare earth magnets FROM China, even our military.

DROP DEAD, SUCKERS.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#303718 - 11/05/17 04:04 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13828
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The difference is, at the close of WW2 we had The Marshall Plan

And now that worldwide manufacturing is in full swing again we have the Martial Plan...eternal warfare to keep manufacturers busy building weapons systems.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#303719 - 11/05/17 05:59 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
We made it so difficult to make flat panel displays over here that companies just gave up


Look up Vizio: They are in Irvine, CA and they make flat screen TVs and have been for a long time. It's not impossible.

And a funny thing about rare earths: Any place that has "rich rare earth deposits" only has a tiny percentage more rare earths in their soil than the entire rest of the planet. You can mine them anywhere on earth. Just a few places will be slightly more productive than others. Of course, you have to strip mine the hell out of where ever you mine it. So the decisions to not do that here were probably more for purposes of self preservation than anything else.

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#303722 - 11/05/17 03:35 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
Clinton had real flaws


Yeah, she's too centrist in a time that we are being pushed to extremism with a lot of Russian help. I'm basing this on info that just came out within the last couple of weeks in testimony by internet companies before Congress. It's not delusional: It's sworn testimony by Facebook, Google, etc. lawyers. Maybe you have not been keeping up.

Just as an example, Russian trolls spent about $200 to create two web pages and then take them viral with their bot army. One page promoted an anti-Muslim patriotic American isolationist rally for a particular city at a certain time and date. The other page promoted a rally in the same place and time for Muslim understanding. The Russians were playing "Let's you and him fight." And they have done this many many times, even before the latest Presidential races.

According to you, Clinton's big fault is that she is a neoliberal. I've got some news for you: So are most Democrats. Bill Clinton did not invent world trade or moving low-skill jobs overseas. It was already happening, and there was NOTHING he could do to stop it. So he chose to look at it's positive benefits and concentrate on them. Sure, we don't get to make TVs or solar panels any more, but we can BUY really cheap giant flat TVs and really cheap solar panels. The future proceeds, and fighting it is like beating the incoming tide with a stick.

This globalization is actually inevitable: After WW II we were the only developed country left essentially intact. We had almost no attacks on the mainland US, so all of our manufacturing infrastructure was unharmed while the rest of the world's was in tatters. We enjoyed great wealth as a result, but now that so many other nations have rebuilt we have to share that wealth with billions of other people. Unless you favor the idea of enslaving the rest of the world and keeping them poor. I suppose we could do that.


I understand what's been happenning on the inner webs. We got hoisted by our own petard.
I understand fully what's happenned to the Democratic Party. The party jettisoned their left and embraced the centrist rights neoliberal policies and campaign donors with shared values.
Neoliberal policies have shrunk the public space by privatization, subjugating the rights of peoples self determination, decoupling wages from worker productivity, accelerating wealth accumulation for a very few and the largest disparity of income since the 1800's. Protections are reduced to increase profit and social safety nets are evicerated. This works very well for the donor class.
What we have in return for our compliance to neoliberal order and a replacement for true progress is identity politics. Inclusiveness for sexual orientation and gender identification comes to mind here. A false choice if there ever was one. Trump's campaign used identity politics too.
Spare the neoliberal bromides of the rising tides lifting all boats, etc...
The data is in. Piketty's 'Capitol' does a brilliant job exposing this charade for what it is. A massive upward redistribution of wealth we havnt seen since the Gilded age.
The Democratic Party ought to course correct and work for real social and economic justice. A great deal of the Sanders supporters thought so. The reflexive defense of a bankrupt party by its comfortable and complacent base of support (shrinking amongst rural and working poor) and it's Clinton apparatchicks makes me think it won't happen anytime soon.

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#303723 - 11/05/17 08:13 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
it won't happen anytime soon


Not if every left-leaning Democrat exits to join Sanders. The Democratic Party needs those voices, if you want it to change, you and all your cohort need to get involved with it, become a Party member, an official, a delegate, etc. If enough of the Democratic base really wants something the candidates are going to incorporate it in their platform.

Forget the Socialist label: Too many ignorant Americans are going to run from "Socialism". Might as well call yourself the "Baby Killer and Child Molester Party" as far as the American voter is concerned. Make the Democratic Party a party that Sanders can join, but you have to do that from the inside. Standing outside and complaining about the Party you left is totally useless.

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#303724 - 11/05/17 09:37 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
it won't happen anytime soon


Not if every left-leaning Democrat exits to join Sanders. The Democratic Party needs those voices, if you want it to change, you and all your cohort need to get involved with it, become a Party member, an official, a delegate, etc. If enough of the Democratic base really wants something the candidates are going to incorporate it in their platform.

Forget the Socialist label: Too many ignorant Americans are going to run from "Socialism". Might as well call yourself the "Baby Killer and Child Molester Party" as far as the American voter is concerned. Make the Democratic Party a party that Sanders can join, but you have to do that from the inside. Standing outside and complaining about the Party you left is totally useless.


The neoliberal democrats have flown the effin plane into the mountain.
Joining the Reagan republican light party is not the answer. The Clinton machine needs to get out of the way for change to happen. Their third way has laid it low.
Sanders did get behind Hillary after she agreed to his concessions. One of which was having his people on the DNC rules committee. The appointing of 75 'at large' members that are Clinton loyalist as well as firing 4 of Sanders aligned people off the executive committee by Perez. We have seen the results of what happens when you try and bargain with the neoliberal democrats.
40 years of 'where else are you going to go?' has got us where we are. Nice....
The only thing I would work for in the democratic party is to get rid of the neocons. Currently, that road does not look to be open until the rank and file decides it time for a change. I will vote third party though. I have brought two of my family members out. One was an elderly new deal democrat. I was proud of that one! The last argument was not being able to vote in the primary if your not a registered democrat. The scandal brought to light by Donna Brazile made it easy for one of FDR's democrats to go independent. Voting with your feet is effective too. I will encourage that whenever possible.
To some extent the DNC reminds me of some of the ossified corporations of the past. Kodak comes to mind. A company that had all the signs warning them that they needed to change but chose to ignore it and bury their heads in he sand. Tweaking their film product to stave off declining sales. Bringing some new shiny film camera or print kiosk to market to boost product sales. Wanting to believe that they could somehow keep the wildly profitable 'make it by the mile, sell it by the inch' formula of film manufacture alive. The executives still keep the buildings' marque lights on and somehow pay the electric bills. They've devolved into a patent litigation law firm, basically. Litigating this company or that on patents that they historically held and, ironically, neglected to capitalize on. They invented digital photography for gods sake!
The Neoliberal democrats at the top remind me of the Kodak board and CEO. Your willingness to support them, PIA, reminds me of the film diehards that kept claiming 'film wont ever be replaced completely. There will always be a need for film...'




Edited by chunkstyle (11/05/17 09:52 PM)

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#303725 - 11/05/17 10:09 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
the United States has two basic parties. One represents the right (conservatives, social and fiscal) and the left (liberal, regulations and concern for others). None of the descriptions are absolute and there has been, in the past bleeding of one set to the other (good times).

The problem is that both sides (not unlike the entire Muslim religion) have extremes. Some of the problems, in all of this, is the problem with issues. "Right to life", for instance, seems to have become an issue owned by the right although people holding that view may have other thoughts about other "issues" so it all boils down to which party can hold onto which issues. Another example is fiscal conservatism. This used to be one of the main legs of the right but no longer. One only needs to do a cursive examination of the state of debt under each side to see that those who actually run what some could call a "conservative fiscal policy" are the Democrats and not the Republicans. The Republicans talk about it more but the simple fact is that the Democrats are functional fiscal conservatives when compared. The current problem of the parties is that issues have overwhelmed the simple liberal/conservative, spendthrift/fiscal responsibility, etc. Each side also has competing philosophies. The right, for instance, has many Libertarians, with different degrees of go-it-aloneness). For differences I would suggest http://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_conservatism.html For the left there is: http://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_liberalism.html

The point of all of this remains, for me, to be pretty simple. The right firmly believes that people will do the right thing if allowed and the left firmly believes that people will not do the right thing and need regulation. The other fact is, again, pretty simple, people are different; individually, groups, societies, etc. None of this stuff is really simple. I think it probably boils down to which local group are you more comfortable with. Its no mystery for me, when I notice that people from different parts of the country tend to have different views and those views, for the most part, tend to be held by a majority. I believe that this simply reflects comfort zones for many.

So, when Sanders made his run at the Democrats, as a Socialist, he was, more or less, put in his place which, I think, was right and fair. Had he, on the other hand, joined the Democrats, as the party of the left, it would have been entirely different. The problem with the left is that they don't seem to understand that if they are "on the left" they have to understand that its unlikely that they are going to find people who agree on every point. They only have to understand that everybody on the left is 'liberal' to one degree or another. The same applies to the right. They too have to understand that they are "on the right". Both sides have to understand that everybody can agree when something is, obviously wrong. Then they have to sit down and actually define 'wrong' and then start offering solutions and hope that, eventually, both sides can come up with something they can live with. Right now, on the other hand, we have a system where each side takes no prisoners, disagrees with EVERYBODY the other side says on principle, and refuses even to listen to the other side.

I find this very strange. The Left, for instance, is fighting each other on which degree each one embraces the left. Same thing on the right. What they have to do first is to understand that if they are on the left or right they are there for a reason and, hopefully, they can made reasonable adjustments so that they can work together, on both a party level and the 'wrong' level. Its like Libertarianism on the right. I know any number of folks on the right. I do not know a single person there, however, Libertarian or not, that does not think that police are a good idea. I think I can say the same thing about the left, irregardless of degree of liberalism, everybody things the police are a good thing. On either side, if they think that police are not needed I suspect they are probably out in a field, left or right, with few fellow travelers.

Sorry - got kinda carried away................. (can't seem to disconnect from my wishful thinking)

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#303727 - 11/05/17 10:43 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
Everything would be perfect if all the centrist Democrats would just turn into Socialists...

Never going to happen. When Socialists march in the streets, all those centrist Democrats and Independents suddenly find their conservative side and cheer on the police who beat up the Socialists.

So what can a Socialist do to change this situation? Go to Socialist rallies and cheer on Socialist candidates? Absolutely useless. Preaching to the choir.

The very best way to change people's prejudices is to interact with them so they can see you as a human being, not an ideology. Worked great when homosexuals tried it, prior to the marriage equality fight. And you can't meet centrist Democrats at Socialist rallies. You have to join the Democratic Party and start going to their events.

You can sit there in some kind of holier-than-thou solipsistic paradise or you can actually do something effective. The Party is made up of people, and Party officials and candidates are only there because the people in the Party want them. Want to change Party leaders? Change the Party members. And the very first step toward that end is to join yourself.

Or don't. Just sit there and complain and your candidates and issues will always be relegated to Third Party Hell. All they can do is make Republicans win elections and get horrible judges on the bench. And sometimes (like now) that is disastrous.

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#303728 - 11/06/17 01:52 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
"So, when Sanders made his run at the Democrats, as a Socialist, he was, more or less, put in his place which, I think, was right and fair. Had he, on the other hand, joined the Democrats, as the party of the left, it would have been entirely different."

The Democratic Party is no longer a party of the traditional left, IMO, Jgw. Sanders is perhaps all that remains. The political spectrum is center right to far right based on legislation and campaign commitments.
I agree with you that there are no absolutes and there's a lot of cross over on issues. I have found that to be the case when canvassing.

PIA, you do not know wether or not I am involved with politics. You view my criticism of the DNC's corruption and neoliberal policies as a demand to call themselves socialist? The thread's topic is a winning strategy. My opinion is for the Democratic Party rediscover it's liberal progressive roots, abandon neoliberal economics, reform it's nominating process, etc.....
Some can be accomplished here but I'm convinced that most cannot. Way to much party over policy and covering each other's arses.
I give examples of current events and long term trends go back up my opinion.
You seem quite satisfied with the status quo?
This election was not about the status quo. It seems many in the dem party think it was a winning enough strategy if not for the Russians and won't entertain any notions contrary. Well that thinking and a dollar might get you a hot cup of coffee in Michigan, I'm guessing.
Now if the party saw its membership decline in large enough numbers, that might get their attention.

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#303729 - 11/06/17 03:09 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
Okay. I'm sorry. I didn't realize that you are a Democrat. Pissed-off Democrat, but a Democrat.

Pissed of is fine. I think there is plenty of room within the Party for people leaning left. I do myself. I agree that the Party has to do more for working class people and less for the elite donor class.

All those people who voted for Trump in the small Midwestern states need to see the Republican Party as the "Screw The Working Class" Party and the Democrats as looking out for them.

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#303730 - 11/06/17 05:40 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
PIA, the word 'democrat' means many things to many people. I gave up trying to figure it out years ago. Looking at the legislation coming out and assessing its benefits is the only way to see it for me. Some need the comfort of labels and brands often times a substitute for real progress. I have seen mostly regression in my real world observations. If I lived in a college town my perspective might be different.
The rich are getting richer while the working class are getting cut out. Upper class crimes go unpunished and the swindles get larger. Identity politics get thrown up as a smoke screen for the getaways. Party identity being the biggest smoke screen.
Here's another one breaking... The intersectionalities of class and politics
I no longer identify party allegiance. As the grift and corruption mounts I think more will do the same.

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#303738 - 11/06/17 08:03 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

I no longer identify party allegiance. As the grift and corruption mounts I think more will do the same.


And at the same time, more and more of those will either not vote (a vote for the Republicans) or will vote for exotic candidates who do not have a snowball's chance in Hell of winning anything (another vote for the Republicans) while the Right will continue....you guessed it...voting for Republicans.



Change that to "Rainbow Farting Unicorns" and there you have it.
I'm sick of watching and hearing people complain about the Right, then watching them chase Rainbow Farting Unicorns.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#303739 - 11/06/17 09:42 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

I no longer identify party allegiance. As the grift and corruption mounts I think more will do the same.


And at the same time, more and more of those will either not vote (a vote for the Republicans) or will vote for exotic candidates who do not have a snowball's chance in Hell of winning anything (another vote for the Republicans) while the Right will continue....you guessed it...voting for Republicans.



Change that to "Rainbow Farting Unicorns" and there you have it.
I'm sick of watching and hearing people complain about the Right, then watching them chase Rainbow Farting Unicorns.


More lesser of two evils and wasting your vote Jeff?

If the party wants to continue it's rightward drift it has to be willing to lose it's left flank. You have any other suggestions to stop the rightward drifT I'm willing to listen to them. If you want to disagree with my observation of the systemic corruption of the democratic party, fine, lets hear it out.
Yelling 'Socialist!' or 'yer throwing your vote away ya dreamer!' is not a winning plan that I can see.

I still submit that Sander's plan was the winning one were it not for the neoliberals taking over the DNC BEFORE the primary had begun. We know the rest of the story.

Not even a year after the election they have managed a purge of the left wing of the party from the DNC and replaced them with neoliberals.

Ya'll realize she ran a crap campaign strategy don't you?
No? Russians? Voter suppression? Sa'll good for another Hillary run in 2020?

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#303740 - 11/06/17 09:43 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Politics is not a baseball game, and it is not a soap opera.

People are hurting in this country, and our job is not to be distracted by political gossip and Donald Trump's tweets. Our job is to revitalize American democracy and bring millions of people into the political process who today do not vote and who do not believe that government is relevant to their lives. Our job is to create an economy and government that works for all of us, not just the 1 percent and wealthy campaign contributors.

Here's the problem: the strategy the Democratic Party has been pursuing in recent years has failed. Since 2009, Democrats have lost more than 1,000 seats in state legislatures across the country. Republicans now control the White House, 34 out of 50 governorships as well as the U.S. House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate. In dozens of states, the Democratic Party is virtually non-existent. Too much is at stake for our country and our people for us not to learn from our past failures and move forward in a way that makes the Democratic Party stronger so we can take on and beat Trump and the right-wing Republican agenda.

What the recently released book excerpt from former interim DNC Chair Donna Brazile made clear is that unless we get our act together, we are not going to be effective in either taking on Donald Trump or in stopping the extremist right-wing Republican agenda. We have to re-establish faith with the American people that in fact we can make positive changes in this country through a fair and transparent political process that reflects the will of voters across this country.

In order to do that, we need to rethink and rebuild the Democratic Party. We need a Democratic Party that opens its doors to new people, new energy and new ideas. We need a Democratic Party that is truly a grassroots party, where decisions are made from the bottom up, not from the top down. We need a Democratic Party which becomes the political home of the working people and young people of this country, black and white, Latino and Asian and Native American ... all Americans.

And we need to make it abundantly clear that the Democratic Party is prepared to take on the ideology of the Koch brothers and the billionaire class – a small group of people who are undermining American democracy and moving this country into an oligarchic form of society. YES. We will take on the greed, recklessness and illegal behavior of Wall Street, corporate America, the insurance industry, the drug companies, and the fossil fuel industry.

Now, what the Establishment (political, economic and media) wants us to believe is that real and fundamental changes in our society are impossible.

No. We cannot guarantee health care to all as a right. No. We cannot revitalize the trade union movement, raise the minimum wage to a living wage of $15 an hour and provide pay equity for women. No. We cannot effectively compete in the global economy by making public colleges and universities tuition-free. No. We cannot lead the world in combatting climate change and transforming our energy system away from fossil fuels. No. We cannot reform our broken criminal justice system or finally achieve comprehensive immigration reform.

They want us to think that in the wealthiest country in the history of the world, a nation which has more income and wealth inequality than almost any nation on earth, the best that we can do is to accept tiny, incremental change.

I could not disagree more.

Right now, a Democratic National Committee Unity Reform Commission, comprised of people who supported our campaign, people who supported Secretary Clinton's campaign, and people appointed by DNC Chair Tom Perez are working on a set of policies that will determine the future direction of the Democratic Party. In many ways, this Unity Commission will determine whether the Party goes forward in a dynamic and inclusive way, or whether it retains the failed status quo approach of recent years. It will determine whether the Party will have the grassroots energy to effectively take on Donald Trump, the Republican Party and their reactionary agenda or whether we remain in the minority.

In my view, this Commission must:

* Make the Democratic Party more democratic and the presidential contests more fair by dramatically reducing the number of superdelegates who participate in the nominating process. It is absurd that in the last presidential primary over 700 superdelegates (almost one-third of the delegates a candidate needed to win the nomination) had the power to ignore the will of the people who voted in the state primaries and caucuses.

* Make primaries more open by ending the absurdity of closed primary systems with antiquated, arbitrary and discriminatory voter registration laws. Republicans are the ones who make it harder for people to vote, not Democrats. At a time when more and more people consider themselves to be Independents our job is to bring people into the Democratic Party process, not exclude them. It is incredibly undemocratic that in some states voters must declare their party affiliation up to six months before the primary election.

* Make it easier for working people and students to participate in state caucuses. While there is much to be said for bringing people together face-to-face in a caucus to discuss why they support the candidate of their choice, not everybody is able to attend those caucuses at the time they are held. A process must be developed that gives everyone the right to cast a vote even if they are not physically able to attend a state caucus.

* Make the DNC's budget and decision-making processes more open and transparent. If we are going to build a Party that relies on working people who are willing to give $5, $10 and $27 donations, they deserve to know where that money is going and how those decisions are made.

I look forward to following the progress of the Unity Reform Commission, and I urge Chairman Tom Perez and the entire Democratic National Committee to develop policies which move the Democratic Party forward in a very different direction – a direction that will lead us to national and statewide victories. It's important that you do the same:

Please sign the petition calling on the Democratic National Committee and Chairman Tom Perez to accept, support and implement policies which make the Democratic Party more inclusive, more democratic and more transparent.

Right now, our job is to come together, and not be distracted by the political gossip and drama of the moment. We must fight President Trump's destructive efforts to divide us up by the color of our skin, our gender, our religion, our sexual orientation or our country of origin. We must rally the American people to oppose Trump's proposal to provide massive tax giveaways to billionaires while taking away the health care that millions now have.

But we must also make it clear – if we are going to elect Democrats who will move us forward as a country – that we must institute long-needed reforms in the Democratic Party. When we do that, we will not only create a dynamic and progressive party, we will be able to transform our nation and create a government that represents all of us, not just the people on top.

In solidarity,

Bernie Sanders

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#303742 - 11/07/17 01:21 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12728
Loc: Whittier, California
I disagree, chunkstyle.
PRESIDENTIAL politics IS a baseball game, or a football game, in this country.
We do not HAVE nor have we EVER HAD, a viable third party nor do we have a coalition style parliamentary system.
So yes, for every single aspect that defines football and baseball, there is a matching aspect to presidential electoral politics, two teams, one playing field, one winning team and one losing team.
Every other election is NON baseball/football.
And we can HAVE that conversation about building new parties and erecting a coalition type parliamentary system but it is generational work.
As regards the rightward shift, that can be remedied very quickly, as has happened many times in the past.
Parties get retooled and rebooted all the time. The Republicans were the liberals, the Democrats were the segregationists, then suddenly the Democrats were the Civil Rights and Environmental people, backed by liberals and the segregationists all became Republicans.
Then a few years ago, all the MODERATE conservatives were booted out of the GOP and it became radicalized because a pair of billionaire brothers invested a billion dollars or so and FreedomWorks did the job.

And Bernie COULD have done the same via CROWDSOURCING had HE JOINED the Democrats around 2009 and played the long game with 2016 in mind.
There would be no denying him in the party once he had raised the billion or so needed.

The Democratic Party protected itself from an outsider, and Bernie hasn't been a real socialist for 25 years or more.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#303743 - 11/07/17 02:07 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
"There would be no denying him in the party once he had raised the billion or so needed."

Nuff said

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#303749 - 11/07/17 05:18 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658

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#303750 - 11/07/17 09:41 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12728
Loc: Whittier, California
And again we can have THAT conversation as well, and even the Matt Taibbi conversation.
I'd welcome all of them, just not from the inside of a Trump gulag.
Taibbi casually throws out the term "crypto-fascist" but I assert that Trump and Co. aren't crypto-ANYTHING.
They're dead serious and they're for real.
They are real fascists, and they're not playing this as a game either.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#303751 - 11/07/17 12:16 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15531
There are two major parties in the United States. One is the party of divide, the other is the party of unite. Both seek to build a coalition from those in the general ambit of their constituencies. At present, the politics of division are ascendant. If the Democratic party hopes to be successful, it must convince most people to believe that unity is a better path. It must listen to needs, and seek to meet them. Clinton's theme of "stronger together" is really the core message of the democratic ideal, and is embraced by the majority of Americans. But, division succeeds in the heartland, and we have a federal system. Smaller, rural States control the National agenda. For Democrats to succeed, they need to spread the gospel of inclusion in rural America. Once that happens, the tide will turn (unless we are destroyed before then).
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#303752 - 11/07/17 03:07 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Jeff,
I'm of the opinion that this thread is all about a democratic plan to win. I've suggested that the Bernie plan was a winning one (hell I even posted his most recent 'get out to vote' scolding to discuss...) whereas the Hillary plan is/was lacking.
The lack of any meaningful conversation about his generating enthusiasm (especially among the usually apathetic youth vote) , scorn with his being self described as a socialist and justifications of the neoliberal wing's capture of the DNC prior to the primaries is telling.
Can there be no criticism of the coifed one? Her behavior and tactics are beyond reproach here? Bernie was a socialist or not in the last 25 years?
Hence the Taibbi article link. To my mind, they are all the same conversation. A critique of the campaign and lessons learned from it may help to come up with the 'winning strategy'. Others prefer to have prequalifiers to discuss.

'Are you now or have you ever been a member of a communist or socialist party?'

'Can you tell us how long you have worked within the Democratic party?'

'Can you give us some idea of how much money you have raised for the democratic party?'

NWP,
At some point Clintons' campaign slogan changed from 'stronger together' to 'I'm with her'. Whatever the heck that means.... Identity politics boiled down to it's most simplest form.
The inclusiveness doesn't mean much when your getting debt collection phone calls or notices of foreclosure on your house and you get to watch Jamie Diamond scold our congress. Losing your job at the Briggs and Stratton plant while seeing the motors on equipment down at the home depot with 'Made in China' stickers just adds salt to a wound in Minnesota. Maybe she could have gone there. And by going there, I mean beyond a college town book store? Maybe I'm too cynical but I found Clintons platform (when she ever cared to explain it) full of shop worn platitudes and positions having no real meaning for ordinary americans. Ledders of opportunity sounded like so much tired horsesh*t whereas Sanders made sense. She never really caught fire with the voters with the exception that she could be the first female president. Some of the younger generation I talked to had very little enthusiasm for her as well. Are any of these points I'm trying to make here even allowed or are we going to carp about Sanders not being a 'true' democrat?
Bernie struck a chord with a wide swath of voters in my mostly rural area, as I previously mentioned. I don't think it was the strength of his Brooklyn accent. That deserves to be acknowledged and considered. Mounting a challenge to the hidebound neoliberal Clinton machine (with it's co-opted DNC capture) thru individual donations is no small feat. It could be prudent to acknowledge this accomplishment and consider what those policy positions were.
It looks to me that the party itself represents the antithesis of inclusiveness as far as the primary process goes. If I could see it so could many others. You want to lose the Bernie support? Then by all means, purge his supporters from the DNC and don't take his Commission recommendations seriously all the while chanting UNITY. (again Matt Taibbi link)
I'm afraid that will alienate many Sanders supporters and depress their turnout. As they (and myself included) see it, the DNC is long overdue for reforms and I mainly agree with Sanders recommendations.



Edited by chunkstyle (11/07/17 05:58 PM)

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#303753 - 11/07/17 04:40 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13828
Loc: Florida
Quote:
the DNC is long overdue for reforms and I mainly agree with Sanders recommendations.

I agree with Sander's recommendations too.
But I don't see them happening in the foreseeable future.

Sweeping change is difficult to accomplish, maybe even impossible. The DNC is entrenched and is going to stay that way. The selection of Tom Perez is a perfect example of this calcification and proof that we can sit back and watch Republicans win until the entire country becomes Kansas.
Anybody wanna bet on who wins the Virginia gubernatorial election today? My money's on the Guy with the R beside his name.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#303754 - 11/07/17 06:07 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Perhaps not at the national level Gregor but there are opportunities at the local levels
Just one example
There are many who believe that change won't come from the top down. It can only come from the bottom up. Reasons already having been posted in this thread.

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#303756 - 11/07/17 08:38 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13828
Loc: Florida
Oh, I agree that change comes from the bottom up but mostly what I've seen is incremental changes moving us ever rightward. Republicans are, if nothing else, patient and persistent.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#303757 - 11/07/17 08:48 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
At 76, Sanders is probably too old to run. He would be 79 in 2020 and 87 by the end of a typical 8 year term in office.

But that doesn't mean a younger Democrat with similar ideas couldn't run. The Senate and House are almost half Democrats and there are still some state Governors in the Party. I assume after the Trump disaster we go back to electing people who actually are qualified and have some experience in government.

But in the real world, he or she has to be working IN the Party and DOES have to raise a ton of money to be competitive. If all that money comes in the form of $5, $10, and $25 individual donations, all the better because that means a lot of people support them. But they still need the money. It does absolutely no good to have the perfect candidate and not enough money to get that message out.

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#303762 - 11/08/17 12:40 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: Greger
Oh, I agree that change comes from the bottom up but mostly what I've seen is incremental changes moving us ever rightward. Republicans are, if nothing else, patient and persistent.


The Democratic establishment shouldn't be helping with that drift. I still contend that the third way strategy has helped with this.
Sanders campaign positions were refuting that third way mind set. As did his 'get out the vote' scolding that I posted earlier.
Medicaid for all.
Free colledge education.
Campaign finance reform
Etc....

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#303763 - 11/08/17 01:51 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13828
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Anybody wanna bet on who wins the Virginia gubernatorial election today? My money's on the Guy with the R beside his name.
Looks like I was wrong...Democrats have taken Virginia and New Jersey according to early reports....but you see how cynical I've become?

Elected Democrats are scared, Chunky. Or perhaps they're just cowards, afraid to move left as the nation appears to be moving right. With a few wins under their belts they might become bolder though.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#303764 - 11/08/17 03:31 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12728
Loc: Whittier, California
Greger, we may be witness to the first rumblings of a large landslide in 2018.
God please let it be so!
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#303767 - 11/08/17 03:55 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Exit polling reporting I've read suggested that health coverage was the largest concern amongst Northam voters. Government assisted healthcare...... Seems like a left wing proposal going back decades.
The democrats can't go left becaus their donor class won't allow it. They can quibble on gender equality issues and the like but the real big stuff like public funding of colledge education, health care, bringing the financial sector to heel or taking the opoid pharmaceuticals to task are off limits. They can't even talk about the war dept budget.
They've taken the money, how can they?

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#303768 - 11/08/17 04:00 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40554
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


Welp, Dems did fantastic tonight. smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#303769 - 11/08/17 04:00 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Maybe a come to Jesus moment in the party? One can only hope

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#303770 - 11/08/17 04:01 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40554
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Greger
Elected Democrats are scared, Chunky. Or perhaps they're just cowards, afraid to move left as the nation appears to be moving right. With a few wins under their belts they might become bolder though.

Yup, it shoulda been Bernie. smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#303772 - 11/08/17 04:07 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Well I'll be. A red state passing a ballot measure like this one....
Bernie will be pleased
The quantitative studies I've read suggest the politics have shifted right (read accelerated campaign spending by corporate interests) but the population wants progress

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#303773 - 11/08/17 04:09 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: pdx rick]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Greger
Elected Democrats are scared, Chunky. Or perhaps they're just cowards, afraid to move left as the nation appears to be moving right. With a few wins under their belts they might become bolder though.

Yup, it shoulda been Bernie. smile


From your keyboard to gods' ipad Rick!

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#303774 - 11/08/17 04:29 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40554
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

Chunk, I was never with her, and I never voted for her. ***shhhh***
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#303776 - 11/08/17 05:32 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: pdx rick]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13828
Loc: Florida
I would've been happy with either of them. As things stand I am decidedly not happy.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#303777 - 11/08/17 05:44 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: Greger]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13828
Loc: Florida
And, without malice, I'll point out to the Democrat haters among us, I'm looking at YOU Chunkstyle, the current Democratic plan to win appears to be working.
These were all state and local elections of course, which doesn't speak to Democratic plans for national elections but it is an area where Republicans have been kicking ass and taking names for years.

Is Trump ruining the Republican brand? Is this a harbinger of things to come in 2018?
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#303778 - 11/08/17 06:16 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Yeah Blue team!!!
USA! USA! USA!

Down sides:
Productivity wage gains have stopped since apx. 1973.
Accelerated growth in wealth gap.
Accelerated environmental destruction.
Growing occurrence and scale of systemic financial market fraud with no criminal penalties.
Dismantling of protective environmental, civil and financial regulations.
Corporate political campaign spending increasing on both political parties.
Massive military budgets.
Massive incarceration of citizenry.
Militarization of police.
Longest war in U.S. history.
Acceleration of U.S. nuclear 'first strike' capability, undermining a 60 year nuclear deterrence equation.
Nuclearization of the Korean peninsula.
Nancy Pelosi's eyebrows locked in a permanent alarmed expression.



All happening under BOTH red team and blue team oversight.

I wont be celebrating until I see an honest attempt by any politician to try and deal with these real issues.
And Nancy Pelosi's eyebrows come unstuck.

Yeah, I know...
Debbie Downer....

Congrats. Go Blue team....

I really miss the voice of a Ted Kennedy in these colorful times...

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#303779 - 11/08/17 06:23 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Phil Murphy........ Another Goldman guy.








yay....

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#303780 - 11/08/17 07:04 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
"twice as many people came out to vote against Donald trump than voted for Donald Trump"- Va. exit polling quoted by CNN

THat's not a ringing endorsement for neoliberal democrats....

Northam bio

He's not bad on paper and I would like to think that Trump may push moderate republican out of their party. Time will tell.

Voted for Bush TWICE?!




Edited by chunkstyle (11/08/17 07:13 PM)

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#303781 - 11/08/17 07:11 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
All happening under BOTH red team and blue team oversight.


Of course, Obama had to deal with a Congress that was dedicated to not ever cooperating on ANYTHING, and a President can't actually change laws if that is the case. I would say that Obama did about the best he could with the tools at hand. It could be a better arm-twister like LBJ could have done more. (But we all know how much the left hated LBJ!)

So it's unfair to blame your whole laundry list on Democrats. Hillary actually made some campaign sounds about minimum wage, health care, and tuition, but apparently those were not winning issues. And "Nuclearization of the Korean peninsula" is not any American President's choice. I'm not sure just how the Party's in America are supposed to affect what North Korea does along those lines.

I understand that those things are simply things you think are going wrong with the country, but there is a huge difference between Republicans and Democrats relative to them.

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#303786 - 11/08/17 09:23 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all

So it's unfair to blame your whole laundry list on Democrats.


Which IS INDEED exactly what you just did above, Chunkster.
I don't take issue with you doing that quite so much as I am emitting peals of laughter at it.
Do you honestly believe that all that malaise is the product of the Democratic Party? You're giving the RepubliCONS a free pass on the last forty years of Trickle Down?

tinfoilhat LOL ROTFMOL LOL tinfoilhat
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#303787 - 11/08/17 10:24 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Obama had an opportunity to take the financial houses to task. He missed the moment. He expanded the drone strikes on targets beyond Iraq and Afghanistan. Minorities have had some of the biggest losses in real wealth since the civil war and the accumulation of wealth towards the top 1% has amassed more than at any time since the late 1800's.
I'd much prefer him over trump but he did not walk on water. Do we need to mention Syria and Libya and the radicalization of far right parties from mass immigration of refugees to Europe. Was that destabilization necessary or part of a plan?
The crack down on Occupy?
I didn't lay all of my listed problems on just democrats. I believe I said that they have been occurring and getting worse under a dem or repub administration.
Were miles from FDR's second bill of rights and the Dems have drifted away for decades.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/08/17 10:26 PM)

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#303788 - 11/08/17 11:11 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all

So it's unfair to blame your whole laundry list on Democrats.


Which IS INDEED exactly what you just did above, Chunkster.
I don't take issue with you doing that quite so much as I am emitting peals of laughter at it.
Do you honestly believe that all that malaise is the product of the Democratic Party? You're giving the RepubliCONS a free pass on the last forty years of Trickle Down?

tinfoilhat LOL ROTFMOL LOL tinfoilhat


Are you saying that Democrats had no hand in the situation, both economically and socially, we find ourselves in today Jeff?
That would be as ridiculous as me saying it was all democrats fault.
I say we are in uncharted water and the quicker we figure out how we got here the quicker we might find a way out.
I saw the darkest convention in my life time. I saw a LOT of people go for those dark messages from that convention. I'm looking at the failure of both parties....
You think Virginia solved anything?
We'll see.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/08/17 11:12 PM)

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#303789 - 11/08/17 11:23 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
matthew Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/24/16
Posts: 319
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

The democrats can't go left because their donor class won't allow it. They can quibble on gender equality issues and the like but the real big stuff like public funding of college education, health care, bringing the financial sector to heel or taking the opioid pharmaceuticals to task are off limits. They can't even talk about the war dept budget.
They've taken the money, how can they?

How very, very true!
.
_________________________
Once, weapons were manufactured to fight wars; today, wars are manufactured to sell weapons

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of Americans

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#303791 - 11/08/17 11:36 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13828
Loc: Florida

Still, if it's all the same to you, I'm gonna blame most of the country's woes on Republicans.
To many on the farther left than me squad the perfect is the enemy of the good. It is what it is...I saw some good come out of the Obama administration, it wasn't perfect by any means, but Republicans took obstructionism to levels never seen before in history.
I expect to see absolutely nothing good come from this administration or Congress.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#303792 - 11/08/17 11:42 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
I humbly submit that a lot of the problem started with the Powell Memorandum

Here tis

I believe the corporate donation cash made it difficult for democrats to hold out from being intellectually captured. I believe both parties exhibit shared values towards rights of corporations and often put corporate interests above citizens. I believe the democrats are as complicit as republicans with this behavior.
Tell me again why we can't get single payer?
Why we cant negotiate trade deals that put our workforce on equal footing by demanding a level playing field with respect to safety and environmental impacts. Can't negotiate those details? Not even democrats?
Oh well, those are just simple low skilled jobs anywho....Capitols gunna do what capitols gunna do...
I've heard democrats mouth these rationals and we have seen what that has meant to communities and whole regions. Don't want government choosing winners or losers? Drive fifty miles from any major city. It already has. I have watched the democratic party fight the good fight for transgender bathrooms. All well and good but I wonder what the guy in Flynt thinks about that after losing his job to a plant set up in Mexico? Where's the fight for him, he may ask? Sorry buddy, your too expensive. We get for a dollar a day south of the border...
Sometimes I wonder if it's the betrayal that causes the most anger?
I occasionally re-watch Moore's 'Roger and Me'. It helps me to make sense of where we are today. If you get a recent re-issue try it with the filmaker and crews' commentary on. It's illuminating.
Ladders of opportunity...
Gimme a break!

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#303793 - 11/08/17 11:50 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
I also spend a lot of time here: Money talkin
It helps me better understand where all these pithy memes get generated from.
Like the perfect being the enemy, I'll take better over the perfect and other neoliberal memes of lowered expectations.

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#303795 - 11/09/17 04:10 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Obama had an opportunity to take the financial houses to task. He missed the moment.


He had an opportunity to get laws passed for just four months out of his 8 year term. He picked ACA as the highest priority and managed to get that passed, which was a historic achievement. There is no reason to think he didn't want to do more, a lot more. But he didn't have the opportunity: Presidents can only decide how to execute the laws, they can't make new laws.

When Obama Had Total Control of Congress

Even so, he did propose what became Dodd-Frank in 2009 and signed it into law in 2010. His focus was on preventing financial abuses, which is much more important then trying (and maybe failing) to prosecute people for past actions which were within the law.

Quote:
the accumulation of wealth towards the top 1% has amassed more than at any time since the late 1800's


In order to change the tax code, CONGRESS has to enact legislation. Presidents can't.

Quote:
He expanded the drone strikes on targets beyond Iraq and Afghanistan


Good for him! Ask any US soldier if they like drones and they will tell you they are life savers. Being against expanded use of drones is the same as saying you wish more US servicemen and women were killed.

Quote:
Do we need to mention Syria and Libya and the radicalization of far right parties from mass immigration of refugees to Europe. Was that destabilization necessary or part of a plan?


Now you're just getting silly. The President of the US does not control Syria or Libya, what far-right parties are going to do, or the flow of refugees into Europe.

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#303799 - 11/09/17 05:01 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
I humbly submit that a lot of the problem started with the Powell Memorandum



Thanks, you saved me from having to drag that up to the podium.
That memo was perhaps weightier than any public policy essay short of The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith.
But far from a hoary old shibboleth in homage to cigar chomping tycoons, the Powell Memorandum was a highly detailed and precise blueprint for what would wind up being the next forty years of Republican and corporate policy.
Powell is to the one percent what Roosevelt's Square Deal was to blue collar labor and the middle class.
Indeed, one could daresay that Powell was actually advocating that the owner class utilize labor union tactics to organize the one percent the way labor unions organized the working class.

And the sheer utter beauty of Powell's evil is the fact that it flew under the radar for at least thirty of the last forty years.
Ask the man on the street if they know anything about The Powell memo, and watch the question marks and knitted brows in response.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#303800 - 11/09/17 05:12 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
He expanded the drone strikes on targets beyond Iraq and Afghanistan.


Drone warfare is absolutely the very worst form of warfare, except for all the other ones.

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

The crack down on Occupy?


Now you're confusing Barack Obama with Mayor Bloomberg.
In fact, Obama took a rather "risky embrace" of Occupy Wall Street.
Not risky for the reasons the WaPo says, but risky because Occupy was a sloppy, loose, meandering assemblage of aimless people who continually INSISTED that they were "a leaderless movement" which...SORRY Chunk, is a recipe for infiltration.
And that is precisely what HAPPENED to Occupy Wall Street. They were infiltrated and penetrated, so much so that comparisons to drunken sorority girls pale at first blush and last looks.
It's a miracle Occupy accomplished anything of substance at all, which they DID DO, but almost by sheer dumb luck and a distinct minority of Occupy volunteers who finally DID decide to ORGANIZE long AFTER the fact.
I am referring to the successful Occupy sit ins on unfairly foreclosed homes as one example, the bulk of which began to take place MONTHS after the group was evicted from Wall Street.

That wasn't done by drumming circles, it was done by ORGANIZED leadership from the rank and file, who finally realized that leadership has its merits.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#303801 - 11/09/17 05:19 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all


Obama had "total control of Congress" for about ten minutes. wink
That was followed almost immediately by a two year campaign of
"Democrats Running Away From Obama", something for which I would like to STRANGLE a few people...more than a few, actually, but all of them Democrats.

WaPo

I am so utterly sick of the constant references to the failure of Obama to act sufficiently like some monarch with magic levers on his desk.

_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#303803 - 11/09/17 05:36 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
PIA,
It won't be worth your time or mine to try and pick each other's opinions apart. I would only say that the needles have been moving in the wrong direction for a while now and I've been witnessing a 'blame it on the other party' scapegoating for far to long.
Sanders has gone to the heart of the problems directly and vocally IMO.
One thing I will bring up is the argument you raise about the use of drones saving military lives. To be opposed to expanding the drone war is the same as not supporting the troops and keeping them from harms way. In other words, not supporting the drones means I would not be supporting the troops.
Is this your line of reasoning?
I recall that line of reasoning being used for unlawful rendition, enhanced interregation and collateral damage . Were you ok with those justifications of troop support? One could (and many with more experience in these matters than you or I ) have argued that these drone strikes now being conducted outside the regions of conflict of Iraq and Afghanistan are increasing the radicalization of the afflicted populations and helping create recruits.
But I hear ya. Gotta support our troops. No matter how.

Jeff,
Can you entertain the thought that the Powell mandate is equalling effective with the Democratic Party? Thru campaign finance?
I recall Obama foregoing public financing in the 2012 election. It's amazing how the 'winning at any cost' that Taibbi cautions about can play to the Powell strategies.
It's really illuminating to see your congressional representative answer to questions of special interest monies influencing their decisions on votes.
They become master masons of stacking bullsh#t.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/09/17 05:49 AM)

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#303804 - 11/09/17 10:42 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15531
I think the winning strategy for Democrats is theme-based. Policies follow themes. By theme, I mean things like equality, fairness in opportunity, patriotism means helping each other. From these come policies that implement them. That was, I think, Obama's genius. It's how he approached the Constitution.

To sustain leadership, Democrats need to reach rural America and inspire a different kind of thinking. After all, MOST of America is rural. Small town Americans think differently, but they have legitimate values. Democrats need to tap into those values that we share - patriotism, love of family, fairness, opportunity. Both Roosevelts did that successfully.

Republicans have successfully coopted and bamboozled small business owners and less educated white voters by using tactics of division and blame. To counter that, Democrats need to sell the concept that government really CAN help.

Look, Republicans are really bad for the working class and most of the economy, but they've been successful in obscuring reality. There is an historic opportunity to correct that. Trump has exposed the black heart of republicanism. People see the machinations of McConnell and the vacuity of Ryan and the greed of Trump, and they hate that. What Democrats need to do is offer a contrast to that and hope for meaningful change.

The targets are the disaffected and the people who work for a living. That INCLUDES the small business owner who works for themselves. Tap into that and they will have a near "permanent majority", but that can never happen if they don't reach middle America. Turn Kansas blue and you win America.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#303805 - 11/09/17 01:14 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8631
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
To NWP's point, here is a fascinating article that illuminates the psychology of what moves a very large portion of the voting populace. This story is primarily about union members who have stable employment in Iowa.

Note below, they saw Clinton as "elitist", but not the narcissistic billionaire con man, all because of the show they were putting on.

I think conservatives get this more than liberals - a yooge percentage of Americans are not among the sharpest tools in the shed. They respond to bullshit advertising for a reason, and no amount of logic is going to change that.

The Cons go for the best con man because they want to win. The Libs tend to want leaders who will fix things, and those people tend to be "elitist" smart people with wonkish personas. Bill Clinton was a notable exception, but he also wasn't top shelf on the issues that are important to me.

We need candidates who are smart and good actors. Clooney 2020!!

The county that voted for both Obama and Trump in a landslide

Quote:
"Clinton came to be seen as establishment and dishonest in a year when a plurality of voters wanted change. ... her ads were more about Trump’s antics than about how she would raise voters’ wages or how Trump might lower them — effectively ceding that ground to Trump’s utopian jobs promises and inescapable slogan."

“We’re skeptical of career politicians,” ...

“For however many years, Democrats and union leaders denounced NAFTA. All of a sudden, you had a Republican candidate saying that it’s all for big business. The average working person said, ‘Hey, here’s someone who’s not going by the party book, he’s breaking the mold.'”

As for Clinton? “She was elitist, was what I kept hearing,” said Laura Hubka, a Navy veteran and ultrasound technician who chaired the county’s Democratic party and knocked on doors for Clinton. “We’re a blue-collar town.”


These folks probably would have gone for Bernie in a big way.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#303806 - 11/09/17 02:35 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
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How did they vote in the primaries?

By the way, I'm not a huge fan of primaries, except open ones. Nor am I a fan of parties, particularly. They are a recipe for corruption. Nonetheless, realistically, in a country the size of ours progress will not be made without the mechanism of parties. So, again realistically, the only way to have a big impact is to take control of a party. Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump all recognized this (as did Vladimir Putin).

Since the Democratic party represents the values that I hold dear far better than the GOP, it is my fervent hope that it remain healthy and in charge. I do NOT want the Dems to become as fractious and unworkable as the GOP is, so the insurgents of the left should not be as destructive of their host as the TEA party has been to the GOP. Donald Trump is a symptom as well as a disease (like Kaposi sarcoma).

One reason I really liked Obama was that he was a pragmatic idealist. He strove to put into practice the principles he believed in, and the proof of his success is the panoply of laws and regulations Trump and the GOP have been at such pains to overturn and undermine. Think about that as you seek to burn down the house.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#303807 - 11/09/17 02:38 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
A good article Logtroll. Seems like an true attempt at assessing the zeitgeist with eyes open.

I take some exception to your statement here:

"I think conservatives get this more than liberals - a yooge percentage of Americans are not among the sharpest tools in the shed. They respond to bullshit advertising for a reason, and no amount of logic is going to change that."

I think the people in your referenced 538 article have a more honest understanding of the Clinton/Sanders choice than many even here on this board are willing to admit too. She did have the election rigged. They called that one well. They also know the B.S. she was peddling for what it was.

Thomas Frank has done some good retrospective work here:
THe clintons were who they were.

Thanks for sharing. It was a good morning read.

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#303808 - 11/09/17 03:04 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8631
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
I'm not advocating for renegade candidates, I am hoping for more effective leadership of the Democrats. Obama was pretty good on the charismatic front, when he made the effort to turn it on. He was reasonably good on the policy front as well, especially considering the opposition of the Vandals. But he was not a big change guy... I think we are now need of a big change leader who can prevent the world from the consequences depicted in Greger's recently posted train photo.

A charismatic lib with policy chops could easily push single payer healthcare, atmospheric CO2 reduction, wealth redistribution, etc., with the support of the party. Right now the Democratic party is just as much about personal ambitions and power as the Republican party is. The egos need to be tamed and some real teamwork has to appear around some valid and motivational themes!

Hillary was ill suited to put on the necessary show, though. Policy wonks with little charisma do not stand much of a chance of harvesting the dull tool vote, which, unfortunately, is a big part of the electoral math. Being "her turn" to run for president was not a good strategic move. It was not a good theme, even if she had won.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#303810 - 11/09/17 03:26 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
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Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
We've had charismatic leaders in the past. Hence the retrospective Clinton administration article.
The thing that Republicans do very well is leverage that kernel of truth about liberal elites into a bigger lie that bolsters their aims and objectives.
Liberal elites simply B.S. themselves.
How does the party avoid this trap?




Edited by chunkstyle (11/09/17 03:30 PM)

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#303811 - 11/09/17 03:35 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6208
Loc: Highlands, Tx
"pragmatic idealist" <> "cult of personality"

As Mr Trump continues his assault on America and becomes just as complicit in Congressional failures, it has become clear his supporters did not care about policy or ideology. The GOP has become a cult of personality, reality TV show personality. Rep Ryan stated it accurately when he said, the GOP has become the party of Mr Trump. Yes it is the party of populism and nativism, but more succinctly, it has become the party of a cult following. Pledge your loyalty to me personally. A fealty oath seals the deal.

I do not believe a liberal TV show icon is the path forward. It would become another cult in the opposite direction. Liberals need someone with the charisma to not just inspire people but to inflame them with the ideals our Founders had in mind for our country. Our exceptionalism was founded on the Founders ideals and fulfilled by people who believed in them.

I believe we have entered a historical period when there is not a clash of civilizations but a clash of fundamental ideals whether men should be enslaved by governments or men should be free. I am not optimistic as I recall the dark ages lasted a 1000 years. We can no longer afford men to make promises of good intentions but find men who inherently keep them.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#303812 - 11/09/17 04:02 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Analyzing Trump's appeal (I admit to still being mostly baffled by what any normal person would see in that sub-human clown), I can only settle on the fact that he is fearless; he is stupid, narcissistic, angry, destructive, crooked to the hilt, racist, misogynistic, bullying, cowardly (yes, I know that seems to contradict fearlessness), unprincipled, dogshiit. But all he needed was to be fearless and say whatever insulting thing that came to mind, in order to get the votes of millions of dull-tool voters.

So what if the Dems consciously choose a fearless leader, and one who doesn't have the comprehensive list of negatives in their personality and history that Trump has?

Jeff may be right - Franken is our man.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#303813 - 11/09/17 04:49 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Or maybe that 'dull tool' voter has had enough of the B.S. liberal crap that's been getting sold and Trump was a big F.U!
My last rock to throw. I'll shut up now. Clinton good. Barack Obama good. eek

Franks uncomfortable message to liberals if they care to hear it...

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#303814 - 11/09/17 05:30 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6208
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
Trump was a big F.U!

don't sell yourself short on the afterthught

listening to Trump supporters where I go that may be the over riding reason they voted for him and for no other reason. consider when apprised of all his failures they still support him and then say, it was all about him
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#303816 - 11/09/17 06:59 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Or maybe that 'dull tool' voter has had enough of the B.S. liberal crap that's been getting sold and Trump was a big F.U!
My last rock to throw. I'll shut up now. Clinton good. Barack Obama good. eek

Franks uncomfortable message to liberals if they care to hear it...


Whoops! my apologies to liberals. Meant to say neolibeal B.S.

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#303818 - 11/09/17 07:42 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: rporter314]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8631
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:
Trump was a big F.U!

listening to Trump supporters where I go that may be the over riding reason they voted for him and for no other reason. consider when apprised of all his failures they still support him and then say, it was all about him

I agree that the prime appeal to Trump's base is simply that he is an assshole. We can forget about ever swinging them.

The folks I am calling 'dull tools' are people like the ones in the Iowa town article - they can be influenced by a charismatic Lib.

Clinton only lost by -3 million votes out of what, 130 million? Just a temious guess, but I think at least 30 million of Trump's votes were swingable.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#303820 - 11/09/17 07:55 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: logtroll]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6208
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Let me refute your arithmetic with round numbers (not those square ones)

about 63M voted for Mr Trump. Currently Mr Trump enjoys continued support from his base of about 90%. Therefore today the number may be about 10M dissatisfied voters. But do not think that all would necessarily vote for a Dem. These folks may have actually been duped into believing Mr Trump would actually make good on his promises, which would probably be jobs, health care, etc.

I suspect Mr Trump brought to the surface the seething underbelly of American deplorables. I also suspect this may be the maximum number of people, despite the fact to me it appears large, who believe in the current Republican brand of populism and nativism, which can be a good thing, or perhaps I am wrong and it is only the beginning of these folks boiling over into the mainstream.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#303822 - 11/09/17 08:52 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Chris Hedges is currently on a speaking tour. If you get a chance I would suggest going to listen. He's done a harsh job of illuminating what time it is...
No easy answers here

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#303824 - 11/09/17 09:26 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Interesting. I titled this one "the democratic plan to win". Seems that all has to do with Trump so, effectively, this topic is yet another Trump topic. (pretty tired of Trump) The man is a liar and a jackass (there is, of course more). He has been doing an absolutely great job of gathering enemies and tooting his horn with lies and innuendo. The only really sad thing is that so many continue to believe his bs.

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#303829 - 11/09/17 09:59 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Win what? Maybe the question is not understood.



Edited by chunkstyle (11/09/17 10:00 PM)

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#303830 - 11/09/17 10:21 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Four words:
Overthrow the corporate state

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#303831 - 11/09/17 11:20 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8631
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Yeah, baby! ThumbsUp
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#303835 - 11/10/17 05:39 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40554
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Greger
To many on the farther left than me...

Yes, you rang...? coffee
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#303878 - 11/11/17 07:48 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I noticed that somebody mentioned not understanding how Trump won. This one is pretty simple and the fault is twofold. First Trump. The man is a flat out liar and jackass. The problem is that them that voted for him are all expert wishful thinkers that are a bit confused about reality. Trump has promised jobs for all, especially those who lost jobs due to automation and a tax law that rewards them that move offshore (still in place, incidentally). The might group of American voters actually believed the noise, ie. Furreners did it all, if they don' look like you they want your jobs, your wives, your daughters and anything else you can think of. After that bit there comes the; "I however, the only man alive who can fix this, is ME! I will bring back all the jobs and even create more. In addition I will also provide cheap healthcare for all, destroy all enemies, and make America not only great again but a paradise on earth.". He would then explain how he would do it which is, basically, controlling them damned foreigners whilst removing them that have sneaked in as well as building ANOTHER wall across the southern border.

His true believers are devoted to believing just about everything that has nothing to do with the fact. They have not seen, for instance, pictures of auto factories with all the welding machines (which used to be 2 or 3 humans welding). China, a couple of months ago, actually, replaced something like 60,000 workers with a single automated factory complex! Basically, them automated jobs are never to be seen again. Trump also is going to magically make all businesses that moved overseas return or he will be angry and that threat alone will be enough to get that job done. These are the same people who believe the Trump healthcare promise. They are, of course, completely ignoring the new Trump budget which removes close to half a TRILLION dollars from healthcare (he simply would never do such a thing!). No sense even talking about the environment or climate change. Climate change is a myth of the left and the environment is so good that it can stand a bit of coal waste in running streams so coal can continue to be mined - mostly by automation (them jobs are GONE!).

One can natter on about this stuff but, basically, Trump lies and idiots believe because, otherwise, things will never improve. I guess I should add that its pretty obvious to me that they also don't think homeless problem is growing at all! (you know, all them without jobs, or a place to sleep - dirty bums, the whole lot of them).

There used to be a a phrase about rose colored glasses. Seems we have an entire political segment of population that put on them rose colored glasses and they ain't gonna change their minds no matter what!

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#303879 - 11/11/17 08:16 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40554
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Quote:
...the democratic plan to win...

Getting out and voting - as we saw with Tuesday night's blue wave. smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#303881 - 11/11/17 10:19 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12728
Loc: Whittier, California
You sho nuff got dat right!
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#303894 - 11/12/17 07:54 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
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Posts: 15531
Who are the future leaders of the DNC? Al Franken? Cory Booker? Amy Klobuchar? Elizabeth Warren? All of the above? I like all of them, and Tulsi Gabbard, Kristen Gillibrand... other nominees?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#303896 - 11/12/17 08:10 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
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I left Tim Kaine off that list...
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#303897 - 11/12/17 09:35 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13828
Loc: Florida
Tim Kaine...far too boring. A more interesting VP choice might have meant we were suffering through a Democratic administration right now.

Like say, Bernie Sanders?
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#303898 - 11/12/17 10:28 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
I think that was Hillary's biggest mistake. She never should have assumed all of Bernie's supporters would vote for her when he conceded. She should have put him on the ticket as VP. This is not just hindsight. I always thought this and said it at the time.

That was her main sin: Hubris. She could have brought all the Clinton supporters and most of the Sanders supporters together but she wanted the campaign to be all about her and not a coalition. Stupid.

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#303928 - 11/14/17 06:37 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
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I don't think it was hubris, although I can see why it felt that way. I think it was caution - or overcautious. I think Hillary viewed Bernie as incautious, even reckless. Trump, of course, was MUCH worse.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#303929 - 11/14/17 07:23 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Hillary lost for 2 reasons. The first is that she had been demonized for the last 35 years with nary a peep from her fighting back. I watched her on an interview the other night. I have come to the conclusion is the problem with Hillary is that she is, simply, too nice to be in the political game. She rarely speaks out, never defends, and is always kindly. She has been beat up for 35 years and its estimated that PRIVATE parties have spent well over 10 million dollars trying to nail her (they failed). I am sure there have been additional federal millions spent, by the Republicans trying to nail her (they failed too). Trump has now got Sessions all worked up about spending more money to nail her and he will, I suspect, fail too. Oh, the second reason she failed is that of bad decisions, based on overconfidence plus the Russians messing around. She simply didn't stand a chance and somebody should have known that.

Off the topic, in reference to the above interview. Hillary explained that she had been supporting a number of small, politically active groups. That support ranged from sending somebody with expertise in politics to help out to training. She said that these small groups are the future of the party and, on reflection, I think she is right. The dems have been ruled by the elderly (mentally and physically) a bit too long I suspect, and its time to shake things up and these small groups just might be the answer.

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#303957 - 11/16/17 07:50 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
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The GOP tax plan, like the health care plan before it, is laser-focused on hurting Democrats and helping big business. Deductions for the middle class go away, benefits for students (educated voters) are targeted (This is what the GOP tax plan means for higher education CNN), local tax deductions go away (FU, NY & CA), mortgage deductions are limited (ditto), medical deductions go away (FU, unhealthy Americans), but GOP-favored deductions (like fake charitable deductions) stay (yes, I'm looking at you, Mr. President). If it's bad for Americans, it stays, if it's good for ordinary Americans, it goes. 'nuff said.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#303961 - 11/16/17 08:45 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I think that "hurting Democrats" is probably not right. You are assuming that they actually give a damn in either direction and, I think, you would be wrong. The results are exactly as you suggest but its not that they want to hurt anybody so much as they, literally, don't give a damn about anything but making the rich richer. Nothing else counts. I watched one of them on tv the other night and he actually started to explain trickle down and how good it is for everybody. Even the interviewer couldn't believe it but, there it was! The right is completely delusional about this stuff and simply believe what they are told. Its actually kinda scary.

My hope is that, if they actually pass this stuff, that their own base will rise up. I mean, stripping almost a trillion dollars out of healthcare alone should upset somebody. (half out of medicare and half out of medicaid - and bringing it to over a trillion with the recent Obamacare thing) is going to piss off all the seniors and all the poor. Of course, with the media simply ignoring the budget thing I believe its actually gonna happen and I fully expect those experiencing these cuts are going to rise up and its gonna get kinda messy. Hopefully their decision will only kill off a few thousand before it gets stopped and, again hopefully, we can survive it.

If it gets bad enough I wonder if our own military will fire on its own citizens.

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#303975 - 11/17/17 01:14 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
I'm kind wondering about the Senate including language in their tax bill to get rid of the mandate of ACA. News people say "They want to do it because it will save them money they need for the tax cut."

But the mandate is like a tax penalty: People who don't get insured pay it to the government. How could getting rid of it do anything but COST the government money? This makes no sense and nobody seems to notice!

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#303981 - 11/17/17 05:00 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15531
I actually think I know the answer to this one, but the answer will make your head spin. It turns out that a significant number of the 13 million people who are likely to drop coverage actually get government subsidies to defray the cost of coverage. Yes, people who don't have to pay for their coverage are complaining that they're being forced to take it. It's asking to the Medicare Seniors complaining about "socialized medicine". So, the government saves $300 billion (over 10 years) because it doesn't have to subsidize those who drop coverage.

The problem with this analysis is this: EVERYONE'S cost are going to go up because the least sick will drop coverage (estimates are that there will be an immediate 10% across the board, and an additional 10% more each year). Because many of those people get government subsidies, the government will actually be paying more.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#303984 - 11/17/17 07:22 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
And of course, the people who then get sick to the point of medical bankruptcy go on Medicaid and we all pay for them instead of an insurance company paying. This only works if you look at a subset of the whole picture.

The REAL Republican goal is to let poor people die instead of giving them medical care. But you run a news story about a hospital refusing to treat anybody and they die and we are all Socialists all of a sudden!

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#304022 - 11/19/17 10:00 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Interesting...... Don't forget, however, medicaid AND medicare are going to be reduced by 1/2 a billion annually until they have reduced both by approximately 1/2 a TRILLION each. I just went to the aarp site. They don't even mention the medicare cuts unless you look for them. So, if you are on medicare you not only have to fight with the politicians but the aarp! The media is in the same stance - they too are rarely, if ever, mentioning the cuts for healthcare. They are, however, talking about the CUTS to the ACA I find it all pretty strange. It also looks as if the Republicans are going to get their way. Then, of course, we are going to be gifted with all the outrage when both medicare and medicaid just kinda fade away.

I can remember when there used to be an organization call the Grey Panthers who would have gone nuts over this thing. Now, however, not only are the poor going to get wrecked (I think the logic goes something like; "Well, they don't vote so I don't care") but medicare is going to get stripped down drastically. I betcha, once that happens there are going to be a bunch of upset seniors who can't seem to be currently bothered with it all. How does it go? Something like; "We reap what we sow"?

Well, at least they are going to get gov out of medicare and medicaid so things aren't all that bad? (IDIOTS!)


Edited by jgw (11/19/17 10:01 PM)

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#304034 - 11/20/17 07:10 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Now we have been told that the budget and the tax thing is all about Republicans taking care of their 'donors'. This means that the Republicans are making their 'donors' richer so that they can give them even more money. I also found it interesting that reference to the Republican 'donors' stopped after approximately 2 days. Hopefully the left can wake up and attack on this one?

We REALLY need a constitutional amendment that simply says "money is not speech" which would solve a pile of problems with our system. They might also add another line that says "corporations are not individuals". If we could actually do that then the congress could proceed to actually put some regulations in place that would take care of this stuff. If/when the Dems win this should be at the top of their wish list.


Edited by jgw (11/20/17 07:11 PM)

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