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#303752 - 11/07/17 03:07 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 707
Jeff,
I'm of the opinion that this thread is all about a democratic plan to win. I've suggested that the Bernie plan was a winning one (hell I even posted his most recent 'get out to vote' scolding to discuss...) whereas the Hillary plan is/was lacking.
The lack of any meaningful conversation about his generating enthusiasm (especially among the usually apathetic youth vote) , scorn with his being self described as a socialist and justifications of the neoliberal wing's capture of the DNC prior to the primaries is telling.
Can there be no criticism of the coifed one? Her behavior and tactics are beyond reproach here? Bernie was a socialist or not in the last 25 years?
Hence the Taibbi article link. To my mind, they are all the same conversation. A critique of the campaign and lessons learned from it may help to come up with the 'winning strategy'. Others prefer to have prequalifiers to discuss.

'Are you now or have you ever been a member of a communist or socialist party?'

'Can you tell us how long you have worked within the Democratic party?'

'Can you give us some idea of how much money you have raised for the democratic party?'

NWP,
At some point Clintons' campaign slogan changed from 'stronger together' to 'I'm with her'. Whatever the heck that means.... Identity politics boiled down to it's most simplest form.
The inclusiveness doesn't mean much when your getting debt collection phone calls or notices of foreclosure on your house and you get to watch Jamie Diamond scold our congress. Losing your job at the Briggs and Stratton plant while seeing the motors on equipment down at the home depot with 'Made in China' stickers just adds salt to a wound in Minnesota. Maybe she could have gone there. And by going there, I mean beyond a college town book store? Maybe I'm too cynical but I found Clintons platform (when she ever cared to explain it) full of shop worn platitudes and positions having no real meaning for ordinary americans. Ledders of opportunity sounded like so much tired horsesh*t whereas Sanders made sense. She never really caught fire with the voters with the exception that she could be the first female president. Some of the younger generation I talked to had very little enthusiasm for her as well. Are any of these points I'm trying to make here even allowed or are we going to carp about Sanders not being a 'true' democrat?
Bernie struck a chord with a wide swath of voters in my mostly rural area, as I previously mentioned. I don't think it was the strength of his Brooklyn accent. That deserves to be acknowledged and considered. Mounting a challenge to the hidebound neoliberal Clinton machine (with it's co-opted DNC capture) thru individual donations is no small feat. It could be prudent to acknowledge this accomplishment and consider what those policy positions were.
It looks to me that the party itself represents the antithesis of inclusiveness as far as the primary process goes. If I could see it so could many others. You want to lose the Bernie support? Then by all means, purge his supporters from the DNC and don't take his Commission recommendations seriously all the while chanting UNITY. (again Matt Taibbi link)
I'm afraid that will alienate many Sanders supporters and depress their turnout. As they (and myself included) see it, the DNC is long overdue for reforms and I mainly agree with Sanders recommendations.



Edited by chunkstyle (11/07/17 05:58 PM)

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#303753 - 11/07/17 04:40 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13868
Loc: Florida
Quote:
the DNC is long overdue for reforms and I mainly agree with Sanders recommendations.

I agree with Sander's recommendations too.
But I don't see them happening in the foreseeable future.

Sweeping change is difficult to accomplish, maybe even impossible. The DNC is entrenched and is going to stay that way. The selection of Tom Perez is a perfect example of this calcification and proof that we can sit back and watch Republicans win until the entire country becomes Kansas.
Anybody wanna bet on who wins the Virginia gubernatorial election today? My money's on the Guy with the R beside his name.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#303754 - 11/07/17 06:07 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 707
Perhaps not at the national level Gregor but there are opportunities at the local levels
Just one example
There are many who believe that change won't come from the top down. It can only come from the bottom up. Reasons already having been posted in this thread.

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#303756 - 11/07/17 08:38 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13868
Loc: Florida
Oh, I agree that change comes from the bottom up but mostly what I've seen is incremental changes moving us ever rightward. Republicans are, if nothing else, patient and persistent.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#303757 - 11/07/17 08:48 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7285
Loc: North San Diego County
At 76, Sanders is probably too old to run. He would be 79 in 2020 and 87 by the end of a typical 8 year term in office.

But that doesn't mean a younger Democrat with similar ideas couldn't run. The Senate and House are almost half Democrats and there are still some state Governors in the Party. I assume after the Trump disaster we go back to electing people who actually are qualified and have some experience in government.

But in the real world, he or she has to be working IN the Party and DOES have to raise a ton of money to be competitive. If all that money comes in the form of $5, $10, and $25 individual donations, all the better because that means a lot of people support them. But they still need the money. It does absolutely no good to have the perfect candidate and not enough money to get that message out.

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#303762 - 11/08/17 12:40 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 707
Originally Posted By: Greger
Oh, I agree that change comes from the bottom up but mostly what I've seen is incremental changes moving us ever rightward. Republicans are, if nothing else, patient and persistent.


The Democratic establishment shouldn't be helping with that drift. I still contend that the third way strategy has helped with this.
Sanders campaign positions were refuting that third way mind set. As did his 'get out the vote' scolding that I posted earlier.
Medicaid for all.
Free colledge education.
Campaign finance reform
Etc....

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#303763 - 11/08/17 01:51 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13868
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Anybody wanna bet on who wins the Virginia gubernatorial election today? My money's on the Guy with the R beside his name.
Looks like I was wrong...Democrats have taken Virginia and New Jersey according to early reports....but you see how cynical I've become?

Elected Democrats are scared, Chunky. Or perhaps they're just cowards, afraid to move left as the nation appears to be moving right. With a few wins under their belts they might become bolder though.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#303764 - 11/08/17 03:31 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12908
Loc: Whittier, California
Greger, we may be witness to the first rumblings of a large landslide in 2018.
God please let it be so!
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."

----Leon Russell - "Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#303767 - 11/08/17 03:55 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 707
Exit polling reporting I've read suggested that health coverage was the largest concern amongst Northam voters. Government assisted healthcare...... Seems like a left wing proposal going back decades.
The democrats can't go left becaus their donor class won't allow it. They can quibble on gender equality issues and the like but the real big stuff like public funding of colledge education, health care, bringing the financial sector to heel or taking the opoid pharmaceuticals to task are off limits. They can't even talk about the war dept budget.
They've taken the money, how can they?

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#303768 - 11/08/17 04:00 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40737
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


Welp, Dems did fantastic tonight. smile
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Contrarian, extraordinaire



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