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#304046 - 11/21/17 07:43 PM Big Lies and Tax Cuts
NW Ponderer Offline
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I'm not sure how many citizens are being fooled by the tax arguments being offered by the GOP, but the audacity of the lies is astounding. The entire plan is based upon some of the biggest lies in history. Lies, Incoherence and Rage on Tax Cuts - Krugman, NYT.

Let us elucidate some of them:
1) Tax cuts are necessary to stimulate the economy. Initially, it should be noted that Trump keeps crowing about how good the economy is. If the economy is going so great, why is a stimulus needed?

_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304047 - 11/21/17 07:43 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15681
I'm just getting started: I had to post before my battery died.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#304053 - 11/22/17 12:59 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6284
Loc: Highlands, Tx
" If the economy is going so great, why is a stimulus needed? "

dripping with rhetoricallity

Middle Class Tax Cut .... how many ways can they say that and really mean tax cuts for the top tax payers

pay attention to the not so clever way of them saying the middle class will receive an increase in wages ... anyone? .... if more people are working even at low wages that would mean the middle class as a whole is making more money ... that doe not help middle class wage earners but does increase the disparity between the middle class and the wealthy

What happened to each individual getting a wage increase
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#304055 - 11/22/17 07:05 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Posts: 15681
So, Lie 2) was It's a Middle Class Tax Cut. As Krugman pointed out,
Quote:
Krugman argues that the GOP has always lied about its tax plans, but that Republicans' mendacity under Trump is "unprecedented." During the second Bush administration, Republicans similarly insisted that cuts would primarily benefit the middle class. That group did see a break in the form of a child tax credit, but their gains paled in comparison to those of the 1 percent, who profited handsomely from a lower tax rate and repeal of the estate tax.
...
"So what’s different this time?" Krugman muses. "As in the Bush years, Republicans are claiming to be offering a middle-class tax cut. But where Bush truly was cutting taxes on the middle class, just much less than he was on the wealthy, current Republican plans would raise those taxes on many lower- and middle-income families, even as they go down for the wealthy."
Alternet

Lie 3) Tax cuts Pay for themselves.
Quote:
Secretary of the Treasury Steve Mnuchin insists these tax cuts will finance themselves, despite all evidence to the contrary, while Budget Director Mick Mulvaney maintains that permanent tax cuts on multinational corporations are absolutely essential, for reasons unclear.
Republicans Can't Even Keep Their Lies Straight Anymore

But, Tax Cuts Don't Pay For Themselves.
Quote:
To combat arguments that such cuts will balloon the national debt, tax cut advocates have argued that the cuts could pay for themselves, largely through faster economic growth. Advocates point to tax cuts in 1981 and the early 2000s to make this case.

However, this claim is false. Tax cuts don’t pay for themselves.
And never can. "At best, tax cuts can finance a fraction of their costs through faster growth – and maybe not even that.... To do that, the economy would need to grow by $5 to $6 for every $1 of tax cuts." Tax cuts on corporations and the wealthy, moreover, do not stimulate the economy. "The actual growth effect of tax cuts would likely need to be even higher for two reasons. First, tax cuts would lower marginal tax rates and thus lower the revenue captured from additional economic activity. Second, tax cuts will likely add to the debt – at least in the early years – leading to both higher interest rates and a higher stock of debt on which interest is paid." Which leads to Lie

4) This Tax Cut Won't Grow the Deficit.
Quote:
The Trump administration, predicting tax cuts will set off an economic boom, dismisses the budget's projected $1.5 trillion deficit increase as overly cautious accounting. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin claims increased growth will create so much new tax revenue that it will reduce deficits and help pay down the nation's $20 trillion debt.

"It's going to be all growth," Trump told a Fox interviewer last week. "That growth can be staggering."
Trump's shiny tax-cut plan has a $1.5 trillion problem - CNBC.

As with the previous point, it is fiscally impossible for tax cuts to pay for themselves, much less reduce the deficit. Moreover, an economic stimulus when the economy is growing risks overheating the economy - increasing inflation, government outlays, and debt. That, my friends, is exactly what caused the crash of 2007-8, and the Great Recession (as well as the Great Depression of 1929).
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304056 - 11/22/17 07:43 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1794
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Its pretty obvious that the Republican cant on this is just plain baloney. They have, however, made absolutely no bones about what they are really doing, ie. taking care of their donor class (the big buck supporters). I also find it interesting that, in their effort to WIN, they are quite capable of rising above stuff like honesty, integrity, actually doing their jobs and all that useless stuff. After all,they need their jobs (at any cost! (screw the nation and take care of #1)

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#304060 - 11/22/17 09:10 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6284
Loc: Highlands, Tx
none of your arguments mean anything. Republicans want a tax cut .... they promised a tax cut and nothing will keep them from passing a tax cut regardless of consequences.

these guys are hellbent on ramming their belief system down the throats of every American. once Mr Trump signs the bill no Democrat will be able to repeal it or suffer grave consequences when they raise taxes.

Does anyone wonder why J Moore is so important to Mr Trump? $1B in tax relief when the bill is passed and signed into law.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#304063 - 11/22/17 09:58 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: rporter314]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Moreover, it's Robbing Blue States to Pay Red (NYT - Opinion).
Quote:
Much of the debate over the Republican House and Senate tax plans has centered on how they will shift income toward the affluent. But there is a second kind of redistribution in the plans — from Democratic blue states to Republican red states.

Call it the Republican two-step: redistribute upward, then sideways. The biggest beneficiaries are corporations and the rich regardless of where they are. But under the Republican plans, half of these big cuts have to be paid for in the first 10 years (the other half will be added to the national debt, increasing it by $1.5 trillion). And these “pay-fors,” as they’re called, are predominantly aimed at blue states.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#304065 - 11/22/17 11:19 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15681
I think I'm up to lie 5) Jobs. Its in the deceitful name. Corporate Tax Cuts Don’t Create Jobs, They Enrich CEOs - the Nation.
Quote:

US companies are already paying minimal amounts in corporate taxes, and the ones most likely under Republican theory to pour tax savings into job creation have instead been more likely to cut their workforce over the past nine years. The data shows that low corporate tax rates more often lead to increases in CEO pay and boosts for shareholders.
The con is based upon a grand prevarication: US corporations are overburdened by taxes. The reality is quite different:
Quote:

The average effective corporate tax rate in the United States, once deductions are factored in, is around 27 percent, putting it below the global average. If you limit the review to profitable corporations, the number drops to 19.4 percent. Corporate taxes as a share of GDP have fallen threefold since 1952, from 6 percent to 2 percent. Far from being overtaxed, corporations have carried an increasingly lighter burden.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304070 - 11/23/17 04:32 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40730
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

If the economy is doing so well, as con artist CONservatives claim - why the need for permanent Corporate tax decreases to stimulate the economy? Hmm
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#304076 - 11/23/17 01:17 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15681
If one were to take all the worst ideas for tax reform - for the economy, socially, politically, environmentally, etc. - and put them all in one package, what you would get is the House GOP tax plan.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#304078 - 11/23/17 07:26 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1794
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
This might amuse (subject is taxes):
http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2017/1...bate-on-nov-28/

senators-cruz-and-scott-to-face-off-against-senators-cantwell-and-sanders-in-a-cnn-town-hall-debate-on-nov-28/


Edited by jgw (11/23/17 07:27 PM)

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#304080 - 11/23/17 10:30 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40730
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


From my understanding of what I am reading, student loan interest rates will no longer be deductible, but sending a child to a relgious private school will be. Also, mortgage deduction interest going away for loans over $500K. The average home in Seattle is now $750K - as a reference point.

Also read that owning a private jet will be tax deductible.

It seems that Trump's "tax plan" will benefit him the most. Hmm
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#304081 - 11/23/17 10:33 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: jgw]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40730
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: jgw
This might amuse (subject is taxes):
http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2017/1...bate-on-nov-28/

senators-cruz-and-scott-to-face-off-against-senators-cantwell-and-sanders-in-a-cnn-town-hall-debate-on-nov-28/

The last time Bernie debated the alleged Zodiac Killer last month, Bernie kicked-butt. smile



_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#304084 - 11/24/17 03:54 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40730
Loc: Puget Sound, WA



The thing is, since Trump became President, the GOPs lies have become more bald-faced, blatant, and obvious. Not only that, the GOP can't even keep their lies straight any more. Hmm
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#304087 - 11/24/17 08:52 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7262
Loc: North San Diego County
The thing is that Trump lies ALL the time. So everybody working for him thinks they should too. Then they get in front of a Congressional committee, an FBI agent, or a court and do it.

Buy bye!

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#304089 - 11/24/17 06:50 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6284
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I hate these kinds of "debates". As a student of mathematics, we got in front of class and present on chalkboard our "proof" of some claim. Imagine a class of cynics who would inspect every nuance of a chalk line to guarantee there would be no hand waving proofs of anything.

Economics (and therefore taxation) is not so easy to present "proof" of anything because of all the assumptions.

If these guys are simply presenting a best argument for policy considerations, then that would be ok. However when anyone pontificates that a tax cut will do X, Y, and Z, the moderator needs to put their feet to the fire.

I expect it will be another case of confirmation bias because the details of economic theory will for the most part not be valid.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#304093 - 11/24/17 08:33 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7262
Loc: North San Diego County
The whole idea behind that Republican holiest-of-holys The Laffer Curve, is that government revenue increases when tax rates go from high to lower, but then it goes on to say that government revenue decreases when tax rates go from low to lower. If you are on the right side of the Laffer curve, it HURTS the government to lower rates. They are lying when they claim it is a straight line function: It is a curve that goes up and then down.

Right from the get go, this is intellectual dishonesty: It is a plan to gut the government, drive up the deficit, and make the income disparity problem worse. It is the exact opposite of tax reform.

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#304094 - 11/24/17 08:56 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12888
Loc: Whittier, California
It's a "$12.99 a month unlimited high speed internet plan!!!"....that quickly goes to $149.00 a month after 60 days, only that disclaimer is in microscopic print at the bottom of the page, and no one reads it, and once you sign up, you're bound to a five year contract.

How is it any different than that, aside from the numbers and time frames?
It's a giant fecking bait and switch, and dumb yokels are falling for it every single time.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."

----Leon Russell - "Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#304098 - 11/25/17 12:08 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1794
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Let me try again. Apparently everybody thinks this is not a tax cut, they would be mistaken. It IS a tax cut and its for the 1% and they actually make no bones about that (they quibble and lie a little, however). Anyway, the Republicans are cutting taxes and they are cutting taxes for their donor base and all the rest continues to be baloney.

The Republicans gave up any thought of honest, truth, facts, etc a while ago. Now, its very simple. They want to WIN (basically, their jobs. Nothing more, nothing less. They want to pound the other side to dust and nothing else will satisfy. They certainly are not interested in actually doing their jobs, just keeping them. I find it amazing that anybody would think anything else. The Dems do it too but not anywhere near the vigor of the Republicans. Its a bit like the Vietnam war when the unions were quite willing to march in favor of the war to the point of actually sacrificing their children who served so that the troops wouldn't come home and take their jobs (which they did and it was, pretty much, the end of universal unions). It is ALWAYS about jobs no matter the category; elected, driving a truck, electrician, whatever, it just doesn't matter. Trump won on job promises, he isn't going to keep those promises but that doesn't matter. Wishful thinkers thought he might and that was enough to vote for him. Historically we have seen this over and over again. Hitler promised all them jobs that them bad Jews were taking away. Everybody eventually got jobs, in the army. Trump's cant was the same except he blamed anybody who might be 'different'. Unlike Hitler he mentioned them all at one time or another; foreigners, blacks, browns, refugees, etc. If anybody is even vaguely different they are fair game and it WORKED!

I have mentioned it a couple of times but WE are not all that admirable as WE allowed it to happen. I know, its only 30% so. A simple question comes to mind - where was the other 70%? I would humbly suggest that we all may be fighting the wrong war here.

America has always had a problem with moderation. For instance, members of the left believe that regulation is necessary so that we can all live together in peace. The Right, on the other hand believe that any kind of regulation is an offense against God. The problem, for both sides, is the lack of moderation. I believe this is probably what has brought us to this point. The amusing thing is that both sides readily talk about talking with one another, etc. The reality is that it simply is not happening. In other words, irregardless what they say, the words are a damned lie.

Just saying................

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#304130 - 11/26/17 05:21 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15681
They whole tax cut fight demonstrates many things, chief among them that Trump has no idea how out-played he is. For Trump, GOP tax bill could have big downside - The Hill. Since he doesn't know how legislation is made, and doesn't understand any of the details (or basic concepts) of policy, he didn't notice that the tax bill basically eliminates his infrastructure proposal. "Not only would the tax overhaul use up one of the potential funding options for repairing infrastructure, it would also eliminate a financing tool that states have used to back a wide range of infrastructure projects." - Private activity bonds. That's how most state and local partnerships are funded (think arenas and bridges). Republicans Push to End Muni Sales by Businesses, Stadiums - Bloomberg. Having tax exemptions allows them to compete in bond markets. Most mutual funds use them to protect against losses. You probably own some of you have a pension plan or 401(k). Private banks don't like them so much (explaining who's calling the shots in Congress). But hedge fund managers like the move because existing bonds will increase in value.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#304139 - 11/26/17 11:31 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: pdx rick]
Spag-hetti Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1604
Loc: Middle, USA
Thanks for posting the debate, Rick. I had missed it and hadn't thought to look it up. Bernie mopped the floor with him.
_________________________
Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#304170 - 12/01/17 01:43 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1794
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
NOW the media is, finally, mentioning that the Republican tax plan assaults Medicare an and Medicaid. Not only that but even the Democrats have decided that they will at least mention the assaults. It almost makes me hopeful but, until they start hammering on it I won't get my hopes up. I find the entire thing absolutely strange. The media hasn't really mentioned it, the Dems have been absolutely silent on it and NOW they seem to have at least noticed - incredible!!!!!!!

The only thing I can think of is that the left has joined me in allowing this thing to become law, upset the elderly and poor, so they can get back into power. Sorry, maybe not...........

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#304171 - 12/01/17 01:46 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12888
Loc: Whittier, California
Oh let them have their government shutdown tantrum.
Every time they pull that stunt, it pisses off more and more of their supporters.
They're only going to get away with it a couple more times before they pay the ultimate price.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."

----Leon Russell - "Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#304190 - 12/02/17 09:03 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15681
Well, I thought that Trump was the worst thing to afflict America this year, so Congress decided to out- Trump him by passing that unmitigated disaster of a "Tax bill" in the wee hours of the morning on a weekend. I expect a new recession by the end of next year.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#304194 - 12/02/17 04:45 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13865
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I expect a new recession by the end of next year.


Yes, it's coming. I'm not going to try to predict when, but it appears to be inevitable and the sooner it occurs the better it will be for everyone involved. I'm hoping it happens before the 2020 elections but it took George Bush two disastrous terms to bring on one.

Our government is in shambles. Our economy can't be far behind.
I've said before that the only way to prove to Republicans that they are wrong is to give them everything they want.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#304195 - 12/02/17 05:01 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8701
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Greger
I've said before that the only way to prove to Republicans that they are wrong is to give them everything they want.

Nah... there is no way to prove to them that they are wrong. You just wait.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#304197 - 12/02/17 06:13 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Posts: 15681
Everyone who voted FOR this tax plan is an enemy of the United States, period. Full stop.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#304202 - 12/02/17 08:20 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40730
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


Well...certainly an enemy of the middle-class and those making less than $75K a year, for sure. Hmm
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#304204 - 12/02/17 09:45 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1794
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
and everybody over 65 on medicare. OH, all Muslims, blacks, browns, etc., all females not needing more male oversight, the majority of those under 30, etc., etc., etc. (basically most with half a mind (and some over 65 with less than half a mind))

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#304213 - 12/03/17 08:00 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15681
I'm very worried about what this mega tax cut will do. Many of its provisions are directly aimed at blue States, and democratic voters. Most of it is aimed at bolstering Republican donors. The problem is, it will be very hard to undo. Almost every credible economist views it as dangerously wrong, but supply-side fetishist-fantacists love it.

At this point, something along the lines of the Senate version (whatever it actually is), will become law. Bad law, but law. I think the most likely scenario is - Doug Jones wins in Alabama, and the Senate margin shrinks to 0. So, Ryan rallies the House to simply pass the Senate bill, rather than go to reconciliation - because only one Senator needs to grow a conscience and it dies. Lobbying against it will be intense, once enough people know what's in it.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#304217 - 12/03/17 09:27 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40730
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


It turns out that the GOP didn't factor in the military troops when the wrote their tax reform bills. The baseline amount to the deficit for the GOP plan is currently an additional $1T dollars. But with the military factored in, the troops will add another $1.5B for every 10,000 troops needed in the field, to the deficit.

The GOP once again, shows that they can't govern.

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#304218 - 12/03/17 09:31 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
At this point, something along the lines of the Senate version (whatever it actually is), will become law. Bad law, but law. I think the most likely scenario is - Doug Jones wins in Alabama, and the Senate margin shrinks to 0. So, Ryan rallies the House to simply pass the Senate bill, rather than go to reconciliation - because only one Senator needs to grow a conscience and it dies. Lobbying against it will be intense, once enough people know what's in it.


Quote:
“My donors are basically saying, ‘Get it done or don’t ever call me again,’” - Rep. Chris Collins (R-NY)


Quote:
"Republicans are literally out here warning each other that their big donors will stop writing checks if they don't do their bidding."

- Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC)
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#304219 - 12/03/17 09:46 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
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Republicans clearly admire Russia’s anarcho-capitalism and want to do the same here.
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#304220 - 12/03/17 09:52 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
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Awww...dummy conned by big orange fatty:

‘It’s depressing, you know?’:Trump supporters dismayed by tax plan that caters to the rich and leaves them behind

***Sad trombone***
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#304232 - 12/04/17 08:56 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Sometimes it is important to fight lies with facts: Ten Facts You Should Know About the Federal Estate Tax.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304241 - 12/05/17 05:51 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
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By far, the biggest problem is that rich people die with investments that have never been taxed. Their heirs get to step-up their basis in their share of the investment to the fair market value on the date of death, so they can sell it right then and NEVER PAY ANY TAX!

As long as the estate is under 5 million dollars, that is all tax free. Most large estates have a ton of such unrealized investments. If you get rid of the estate tax then that is even more income that is never taxed.

If you want to make it fair, require all estates to realize all their gains upon death and pay the capital gains tax on it. Or let the heirs pay 20% of the fair market value if they want to keep the property or business intact.

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#304242 - 12/05/17 10:42 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: pdx rick]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6284
Loc: Highlands, Tx
but ... but ... its the greatest plan ... it is tremendous .... greatest

what don't you get about that? ... that it is the greatest?
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#304243 - 12/05/17 02:41 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ujest Shurly Offline
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Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 250
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Yes it is the 'greatest', now for the rest of the sentence, ... swindle of middle and lower class Americans in history. It is almost on par with the swindle of Native American Lands.
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#304245 - 12/05/17 07:47 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
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Loc: Port Angeles, WA
The Republicans have figured it all out. Its really pretty simple. Voters in the middle and on the left tend to not vote. On the other hand the Republican voters have bought their line hook, line and sinker. They KNOW that if they don't vote then the entire world will end as they know it and so they vote how they are told, from the pulpit, from the mouths of them that know, etc. They ignore just about anything that doesn't scare the crap out of them.

We should also remember why the Republicans always seem to create more debt than the Dems. I know, the right mouths all the right words about debt but their actions tend to belie all of that. Its really pretty simple and that has been going on for about 50 years - its called "start the beast" (the government) and, it will all go away eventually. They have already cut the irs budget so severely that they can no longer efficiently collect taxes. Now they are attacking healthcare (medicaid and medicare) cutting them by close to a trillion dollars in the next 10 years. Their plan is, and has been, to get rid of all that socialist stuff; welfare, healthcare, child health, education, environmental stuff, etc. You know, all that giveaway stuff for all the bums. They even say stuff like; "I have real problems voting money for people who are incapable of even voting, or acting, in their own best interest". Given their seriously effective takeover of state legislatures, governorships, etc. through the ballot box (while the Dems patted each other on the back and declared their obvious superiority in everything but winning or getting out the vote), they would be exactly right.

I had thought that the very fact that Trump got elected would point out that votes matter but, I guess, I was wrong about that one too. I have been whining for years about the poor voting on the part of the American electorate. I even used to think that seniors always voted. Well, that turns out to be kinda true and it seems that most that did vote turned out to vote in Trump who is, now, working hard to eliminate their medicare. When that happens, of course, they will start some really loud whining because, obviously, it sure as hell wasn't their fault. The poor, of course, won't even do that much. I sometimes think that they are addicted to their own pain. I can remember when I would lecture employees (all poor) to VOTE! I did this for years and for years I watched them completely ignore voting, gov, and their own problems <sigh> In other words the righteous right is, pretty much, right about voters being unable, or unwilling, to act or vote in their own best interest. I, incidentally, believe that there should be a fine for them that don't vote. It works in Australia and it would work here too (along with gun control <g>)

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#304254 - 12/06/17 12:27 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: jgw]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: jgw
I know, the right mouths all the right words about debt but their actions tend to belie all of that. Its really pretty simple and that has been going on for about 50 years - its called "start the beast" (the government) and, it will all go away eventually. They have already cut the irs budget so severely that they can no longer efficiently collect taxes. Now they are attacking healthcare (medicaid and medicare) cutting them by close to a trillion dollars in the next 10 years. Their plan is, and has been, to get rid of all that socialist stuff; welfare, healthcare, child health, education, environmental stuff, etc. You know, all that giveaway stuff for all the bums.

Yup. Bow
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#304255 - 12/06/17 12:29 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Sometimes it is important to fight lies with facts: Ten Facts You Should Know About the Federal Estate Tax.

Please. The GOP is about to put a teen predator into the U.S. Senate. Hmm
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#304269 - 12/06/17 07:17 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Interesting thing: The GOP did such a bang up job of passing their Senate bill in the dead of night with scribbling in the margins, that they accidentally left the AMT in it! That means all their work on lowering corporation's tax rates is worthless, because they will hit the AMT tax.

Sure, they can fix it in reconciliation, but they thought if Moore loses the Dec 12 election the House could just accept the Senate bill intact and get it signed into law. Now they can't do that. It has to go into reconciliation to fix that because there's no way their donors would be happy with that.

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#304280 - 12/07/17 07:59 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
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I continue to wonder why neither side will even vaguely refer to the fact that the Republicans are determined to privatize Medicare and Medicaid (get rid of both programs). One would think that the Dems, at the very least, would mention this? Then there is media which, if they even mention it, is in passing, ie. "Medicare is being cut". The fact, however, is that these are not being cut but cut to the bone (almost 1 trillion over 10 years).

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#304281 - 12/07/17 08:10 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


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Registered: 08/03/04
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They are too busy rolling over and playing dead.
Thirty five of them did yesterday, in their eagerness to prove some moral high ground which the Republicans are bound to laugh at.


Edited by Jeffery J. Haas (12/07/17 08:10 PM)
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#304295 - 12/08/17 02:12 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Quote:
almost 1 trillion over 10 years


Cool, so AARP is going to endorse Democrats for the next decade.

Maybe not such a bad deal for Democrats, to pry retired people out of the GOPs fingers. The funny thing (not ironic, but belly laugh funny) is that Republicans have picked this strategy themselves!

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#304306 - 12/08/17 04:12 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Offline
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The Closing of the Republican Mind - the Atlantic. "The tax debate offers a clear measure of how deeply insular the GOP has become. It’s now governing solely of, by, and for Red America."
Quote:
The GOP not only entirely excluded Democrats from the process of drafting the bills, but the party punished Democratic constituencies—from residents of high-tax states to graduate students—in the bills’ substance. The tax plans represent a political closed circle: bills written solely by Republicans and passed solely by Republican votes that shower their greatest benefits on Republican constituencies. Meanwhile, the biggest losers in the plans are the constituencies of the Democrats who universally opposed them. It’s not just redistribution: The tax bills are also grounded in retribution.
Exactly!
_________________________
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#304311 - 12/08/17 09:08 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Quote:
The tax bills are also grounded in retribution.


Just like passing major bills with no bi-partisan support: It means that when Democrats get back in power it all changes. What goes around, comes around. Now that we got rid of the Supreme Court confirmation super-majority rule, the Democrats can install anybody they like when it's their turn. And it may be their turn pretty soon since the Republicans are doing everything in their power to be obnoxious, even criminal.

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#304326 - 12/09/17 06:08 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Jim Crow returns.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304328 - 12/09/17 07:31 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1794
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Here is one I heard this morning and its pretty amazing. Apparently the black community of Alabama is having a problem voting for the white guy and so they are not going to vote and Roy Moore wins. This is the guy, incidentally, who just announced that America was much better off when we had slavery. The left, and the blacks, are VERY picky. When they don't hear, and get, everything they feel they are entitled to they tend to act out in very strange ways and those ways are, invariably, against their own best interests. Its said, for instance, that the Bernie supporters switched their votes to Trump and were, in large part, responsible for Trump getting elected. Now we are told that the blacks of Alabama can't bring themselves to vote for a white guy.

I whine a lot about the Dems not fighting back but, with supporters like this, I am not sure that they don't have some kind of weird mandate to not fight back. I am not sure what to do about the blacks of Alabama but I think that the Bernie supporters, that voted for Trump, should be purged from ANYTHING left including the Democratic party. Brain deads like that are not valued voters of the left and should be abandoned before they wreck whatever of the left is left.

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#304329 - 12/09/17 09:14 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
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On the other hand, the Democrat in the Alabama race is the guy who prosecuted the KKK for killing Black children in a church bombing. I would think they could come out and vote for that.

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#304340 - 12/10/17 12:53 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
On the other hand, the Democrat in the Alabama race is the guy who prosecuted the KKK for killing Black children in a church bombing. I would think they could come out and vote for that.

Are you kidding?!? Hmm

CONservatism is the genesis of bigotry and racism. mad

Racism and bigotry are not a Democrat or Republican ideology, but racism and bigotry are 100% CONservative ideologies.


CONservatives are all about racism and bigotry. CONservative Democrats called Dixiecrats fought a war to keep slavery legal, LIBERAL Republicans fought a war to keep black Americans free and independent humans.

CONservative Democrats called Dixiecrats even wrote Jim Crow laws and started the KKK

In 1964 when the Civil Rights Act was signed, CONservative Dixiecrat Democrats switched to the Republican party to spite Lyndon Johnson. Richard Nixon also recruited the CONservative Democrats under his "Southern Strategy" effort.

While some CONservative Democrats remain in the Democratic party today and they're called Blue Dog Democrats, most CONservatives are in the Republican Party, today.


CONservatism is the only common thread to pre-1964 Dixiecrats and post-1964 Republicans. rolleyes

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#304341 - 12/10/17 02:54 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12888
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I'm not sure how many citizens are being fooled by the tax arguments being offered by the GOP, but the audacity of the lies is astounding.



We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false."-- William Casey, CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
_________________________
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#304354 - 12/10/17 11:21 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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All of that liberal Republican / conservative Democrat stuff in in the long past. Almost all Blacks know that Republicans want them all to be slaves or dead. Especially Roy Moore.

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#304372 - 12/11/17 04:33 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12888
Loc: Whittier, California
No, definitely not dead...just slaves.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."

----Leon Russell - "Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#304378 - 12/11/17 05:06 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
All of that liberal Republican / conservative Democrat stuff in in the long past. Almost all Blacks know that Republicans want them all to be slaves or dead. Especially Roy Moore.

It's still alive on the Disqus forums I go to. Intellectually dishonest Republicans conveniently forget the write "Dixiecrats" aka conservative Democrats and simply write Democrat when discussing the KKK.

They also have no words, and are a loss to explain, how the KKK are now associated with the Republican party. These people try to insinuate that the KKK being in the Republican party is a "false-flag" possibility.

Which is why I point out that bigotry and racism are not Democrat or Republican ideals, but 100% conservative ideals. Always have been, always will be.

I also point out that it's not the Liberals who are upset with Confederate monuments being taken down - it's the conservatives who are upset about it.
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#304379 - 12/11/17 05:38 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
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By their very nature, Conservatives ONLY look to the past and Progressives ONLY look toward the future. There are useful things to keep from the past, but there was also some very negative stuff. Liberals desire a rational mix of good things from the past and good ideas for the future. To be even more specific, Liberal Pragmatists want a mix of good things from the past (like the Bill of Rights) and good ideas for the future (like universal health care) that actually work.

This why Liberal Pragmatists were not totally on board the Sanders train: Because there was insufficient scientific proof (objective truth) that all of Bernie's ideas worked. Sure, they sounded good, but would some of them be very expensive failures? Universal Healthcare, on the other hand, was already proven to work by most Western countries in the world. That hesitation was NOT conservative: It was pragmatic.

Let me give an example of something that probably would NOT work: Free College For All. Sounds great, and if we can make more doctors, teachers, nurses, scientists, etc. then it would be a societal good. But what stops people from racking up huge college expenses to study art appreciation, basket weaving, English Literature, etc. That may be their passion but honestly we don't need more of them. What controls them now is the great expense of going to college for advanced degrees in useless topics when they will have a very hard time paying off their loans. So only the rich can do it. Make it free and all sorts of people will get advanced degrees in fields they can never get a job in. The Free Market works, in this case. Make it free and it can't.

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#304383 - 12/11/17 11:05 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
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Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 707
Indeed PIA, one only has to look to the past for the very example of what happens when we dole out education like lollipops. The historically high levels of art appreciation and basket weaving degrees corresponding to the advent of the G.I. Bill supports your argument.
It would be hard to argue a better mechanism to control rampant art appreciation diplomas than debt peonage. The notion that 1 1/2 trillion dollars of non-dismissable debt being repackaged as investment products bodes well for the future of the U.S. Economy and allows me to sleep easy at night. A beacon to the rest of the world, no doubt, and should be copied in much the same manner as our health care industry.
It's just that kind of brave thinking that's made 'liberal' a badge of honor amongst working class peoples thru out the land. A voting block that's sure to stay solidly democratic with the steady hand of liberal pragmatists steering their ship into a bright future.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/11/17 11:20 AM)

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#304389 - 12/11/17 12:26 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
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Last night 60 Minutes did an article on Jerry Brown and how he's done exactly the opposite of what Republicans prescribe for the country and how Cali has a YUUUUGE surplus now.

smile
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#304395 - 12/11/17 10:40 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12888
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pdx rick

It's still alive on the Disqus forums I go to. Intellectually dishonest Republicans conveniently forget the write "Dixiecrats" aka conservative Democrats and simply write Democrat when discussing the KKK.

They also have no words, and are a loss to explain, how the KKK are now associated with the Republican party. These people try to insinuate that the KKK being in the Republican party is a "false-flag" possibility.

Which is why I point out that bigotry and racism are not Democrat or Republican ideals, but 100% conservative ideals. Always have been, always will be.

I also point out that it's not the Liberals who are upset with Confederate monuments being taken down - it's the conservatives who are upset about it.


Too many people are missing the point so badly it makes my head hurt.
This isn't just "stuff in the past"...it's INTENTIONAL REVISIONISM.

Good God folks, do you people not even realize that there is a well funded Orwellian disinfo campaign which is more than just a hobby?

Rick gets it, I think.

How many still think this is just an accident?
Sure seems like a lot of you.
If I'm wrong, then why do people keep talking about putting it in the past where it belongs? Liberals aren't the ones who are unwilling to let it die, it's Republicans who are REANIMATING all of it to zombie strength.

What the "walkers" are to The Walking Dead, disinfo trolls are to the Republican Party. They deploy them the exact same way fer chrissakes!

_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."

----Leon Russell - "Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#304396 - 12/12/17 12:26 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: pdx rick]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6284
Loc: Highlands, Tx
it was and continues to be irrelevant. Conservative have an idiot-ological belief government has no business in "show" business. Because of that all their solutions are contorted to fit square pegs into idiot-ological round holes.

It doesn't matter to these folks
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ignorance is the enemy
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#304399 - 12/12/17 01:33 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: rporter314]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: rporter314
...Conservative have an idiot-ological belief government has no business in "show" business...

Yet they'll vote for a C- rated actor who's most memorable role was opposite a chimpanzee, or a toothless bloated orange puss-grabbing reality TV star. coffee
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#304402 - 12/12/17 07:03 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7262
Loc: North San Diego County
How about some Econ 101 classes for Congress, so they know the first thing about how the economy works? Like giving rich people more money does not help anyone but the rich people. Giving poor people more money actually does, because they immediately spend it. And the guy who gets it spends it, and so on.

Give it to a rich guy and he immediately sends it to his off-shore account. Nobody benefits, not even the rich guy! At least if you gave it to the poor, the rich guy would have a better country to live in. Fewer beggars, less TB and Hepatitis A, etc.

Disney may have been a terrible anti-semite but at least he had the Scrooge McDuck character so people could form an opinion about rich people.

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#304403 - 12/12/17 11:15 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6284
Loc: Highlands, Tx
when these folks are interviewed and asked a question about historical data demonstrating the lack of great impact of trickledown, they immediately reply .... wait for it .... wait for it .... they BELIEVE it will work

it does not matter what the facts are ... what the historical data says ... they simply believe their idiot-ology.

their base (in the current edition) still believes the federal government is that carpetbagging evil bunch of politicians who forced them to release slaves. so it is easy for these conservatives to convince their base they have to get the federal government out of their affairs.

they would rather vote for a pedophile or a con man and thumb their collective noses at the federal government than find pragmatic solutions to the tough problems which confront us today
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#304408 - 12/12/17 03:34 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: rporter314]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 250
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: rporter314
...they immediately reply .... wait for it .... wait for it .... they BELIEVE...


Facts do not matter just belief; it permeates their lives, everything is built upon that quicksand.
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The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

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#304427 - 12/13/17 12:14 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Now that Roy Moore has been defeated, although he hasn't conceded as he waits for his bigot-god to intervene, I expect the GOOP is even more desperate to get their abomination of a tax plan passed. Expect an unseemly rush to get it passed this week before opposition can build.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304428 - 12/13/17 12:42 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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If you thought Citizens United did irreparable harm to the political process, you ain't seen nuthin' yet: Tax Bill Could Offer New Way To Funnel Political Cash — And Make It Tax-Deductible - npr.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304433 - 12/13/17 09:53 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6284
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Republicans have done everything possible to get the tax cut for the rich and businesses through Congress, while insisting it is a middle class tax cut.

Expect it to pass and Mr Trump will then claim it was all his doing, the greatest tax cut of all time, and the middle class is and will be doing great again.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
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#304446 - 12/16/17 01:36 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6284
Loc: Highlands, Tx
apparently Republicans believe they now have the votes to get the tax cut through Congress and of course Mr Trump will sign anything in front of him.

With lost revenues and a large and increasing budget deficit facing Democrats should they regain power, the Republicans have effectively laid the foundation for the destruction of the federal government.

Expect nothing good to happen in the future.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#304447 - 12/16/17 02:52 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: rporter314]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3773
Loc: Eugene, OR
Indeed Trump will sign anything. He won’t even read what is presented in front of him. Just sign baby, sign.

His first law. And be sure to have all the cameras watching and observing this hysterical event.
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#304454 - 12/16/17 12:44 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: Ken Condon]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8701
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Something’s happening here, what it is ain’t exactly clear...

On a rather more right wing blog I have asked some ten times what anyone liked about the tax plan, and never got one answer. Polls show only about 30% support for it. No evaluation shows that it will help the economy, while all reports show it will significantly increase the deficit. Yet the GOP is pushing it like it was The Repeal Of Obamacare - even the handful of moderates.

I don’t get it. I know that the nuevo conservatives are not rational, but they are always angling for some benefit to themselves. I don’t see any upside to this one.
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#304467 - 12/16/17 04:49 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: Ken Condon]
pdx rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40730
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
Indeed Trump will sign anything. He won’t even read what is presented in front of him. Just sign baby, sign.

His first law. And be sure to have all the cameras watching and observing this hysterical event.

Bow

The guy lies like a rug, and apparently, as easy to lay.
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#304471 - 12/16/17 06:08 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13865
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I don’t see any upside to this one.

The only "upside" is a legislative victory that will make major Republican donors happy.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#304473 - 12/16/17 07:16 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
I don’t see any upside to this one.

The only "upside" is a legislative victory that will make major Republican donors happy.


Bow
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#304475 - 12/16/17 07:38 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8701
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
I don’t see any upside to this one.

The only "upside" is a legislative victory that will make major Republican donors happy.

That is the usual math, but I don't think it explains this move. Why did Collins, Corker, Flake, and McCain roll over for it?
_________________________
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#304479 - 12/16/17 11:05 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: logtroll]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6284
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
I don’t get it

The usual explanation as one of your respondents noted is something about donor class. Something about this doesn't ring as valid. Consider it helps liberal as well as conservative donors, unless of course (and I said that in my best conspiratorial voice) they are all in on it and have ulterior motives.

If they are serious students of possible outcomes they will have paid the foundation for the deconstruction of the federal government. Conservatives don't like government. If government does not have the revenue to operate, it will have no choice but to cut the budget. The cuts will be deep to cover their bet.

I don't think conservatives are deep thinkers or planners.

Quote:
No evaluation shows that it will help the economy, while all reports show it will significantly increase the deficit.

It is amazing but every time Moore or Cohn, or Hassat are interviewed when asked they always respond with they believe the historical data is irrelevant and they don't believe the projections because well they simply don't believe them. (Note they have been also talking about scoring models. These people in particular have accused the CBO and JCT of using closed models. Yet both are mandated by law to provide dynamic scoring which incorporates as many macroeconomics variables as possible to produce the most accurate analysis of the impact of major policy changes). Even Treasury says more policy changes are necessary for the tax bill to have any chance of making any significant impact on the economy.

I have a hard time believing they do not understand the data. Apparently they would rather believe idiot-ology over the facts and best analysis available. (In an added note the CDC will no longer be using words such as science based, in a science based field. I think this is the doing of VP Pence).

The best I can figure is Republicans were forced by their own idiot-ology to pass any major bill and in this case what started out as tax reform becoming a tax cut for businesses.

I still don't know who they will blame.
_________________________
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#304480 - 12/16/17 11:57 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: rporter314]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8701
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Maybe this has something to do with it.

Quote:
Republican congressional leaders and real estate moguls could be personally enriched by a real-estate-related provision GOP lawmakers slipped into the final tax bill released Friday evening, according to experts interviewed by International Business Times. The legislative language was not part of previous versions of the bill and was added despite ongoing conflict-of-interest questions about the intertwining real estate interests and governmental responsibilities of President Donald Trump — the bill’s chief proponent.
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#304485 - 12/17/17 12:28 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13865
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Why did Collins, Corker, Flake, and McCain roll over for it?

Because they are, first and foremost, Republicans.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#304486 - 12/17/17 12:34 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: rporter314]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13865
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I still don't know who they will blame.

Who do they always blame? And who always comes to their rescue and somehow manages to bail the country out?
Democrats.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#304487 - 12/17/17 12:37 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: rporter314]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: rporter314
I don't think conservatives are deep thinkers or planners.

Ya' think? coffee
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#304489 - 12/17/17 01:29 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15681
It's a trap!!

Seriously. This is the way it always works, at least for a century. Republicans drive up the deficit, cut taxes, and ruin the economy... Then when Democrats take office, they blame them for doing the work to right the ship: taxes have to be raised, money has to be spent, and economic discipline has to be enforced. They scream, "deficits!" They claim Democrats are "over regulating", and complain about Democrats "taxing and spending". It's a predictable pattern, and a tired old game.

The POINT of the tax cuts is to pauperize the government to excuse their mismanagement and handcuff progress. There is one administration that hasn't done that. It was Eisenhower, who invested in the highways and started the space race. But he couldn't do it today. Not with this bunch of loonies.

This tax bill is the most corrupt legislation in my lifetime. I can't think of a worse example in history. If anyone else can, I'm open to suggestion.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304490 - 12/17/17 04:13 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6284
Loc: Highlands, Tx
yeah but it still doesn't make sense.

Suppose what you say is true i.e. Republicans are smart enough to concoct a devious plan which will incorporate inherent critiques of opposition party. What that says is they are planning their own demise and lose of power just so they can criticize the Democrats after they gain power. Why would anyone design a plan so they could lose power and have a built-in criticism of the opposition? They of course could just be stupid, but there may be other more reasonable explanations.

May I suggest they are guided by idiot-ology. They have a belief system which dictates their agenda. First and foremost is no government is good government. Everything emanates from this fundamental premise. They do not believe it is the role of government to provide services to its citizenry (except for defense).

So it makes sense they would want to cut taxes, especially for those who contribute the most i.e. those who are propping up government spending, and to defund all social programs which are a drag on those who do contribute.

What they do not realize (because they are not deep thinkers and that is not to intimate I am) is their agenda would effectively destroy the very thing they hold so dear, the United States of America. What they essentially want is America without government, as if somehow magically it would remain a viable entity in a modern world.

a dystopian America is clearly in view
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#304494 - 12/17/17 06:41 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1794
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Its really pretty simple. The Republicans BELIEVE! They believe in trickle down and they believe that corporate America will do the right thing (raise wages, etc). They also tend to believe that ALL government, except for the military and border security, is bad as they hate ALL regulation as regulation removes the individual's right to do the right thing! I have been saying this for years as its true, now and historically. I know, some of us find this unbelievable and actually spend a lot of time trying to figure out how they come up with this stuff. Again, its pretty simple, they believe that people will do the right thing if they are just allowed to.

The Left, on the other hand, do not believe that everybody will do the right thing and many have no clue as to to what that might actually be. In other words the Left supports regulations.

Both sides hold views that philosophy anguished over in the 19th century to exhaustion. Our current system of gov actually was setup recognizing both sides and figured that if both sides, made up of people interested in the common good, could sit down, discuss, and arrive at solutions which both sides could live with. This is, basically, our system. Now, however, it has been changed. This was actually started by speaker Gingrich who started the "don't give an inch" business on the Right and its gone downhill ever since. His system was simple, do whatever it takes to win and then do what you want. Now, I think, both sides, to varying degrees have subscribed to that system. How does it go? Something like "as you sow so shall you reap". We are now reaping and its not real fun.

The trick, of course, is education of the voting public. We have a government which, in spite of all the claims of transparency, is, pretty much, a cipher for most of the voting public. We have a government, for instance, that actually has no idea just how many agencies it has! (seriously, you can google it). What has happened is whoever is in charge has no idea what moderation means and goes as far as it can. The ACA (Obamacare) was gifted, for instance, with 20,000 regulations! We all know how the Right is currently behaving. I know of very few people, personally, who don't believe that moderation is a good thing. In spite of that the American voting public doesn't seem to get it and we are, consistently, voting for idiots. We are currently living with the results of that. Until we can educate the voting public about this stuff its not gonna stop.

I watched tv over the weekend. The current enthusiasm is for interviewing Trump voters. When questioned about health care many have no idea that the ACA and Obamacare are the same things. Medicaid just somehow exists and many actually have no idea that its even a government program. Many want gov to stay away from Medicare. This is, folks, basic ignorance. Now add in the government, police, elected class 'ads'. This consists of negative views of those things and its relentless and unending and usually consist of tv shows or movies, flying under the flags of thriller, action, mystery, etc. We have an entire education, and news system, determined to undermine government, police, and our elected class. Now add in the simple fact that gov gets consistently slammed and has not done a single thing to defend itself. This, to my mind, is crazy. My solution remains that gov should take an hour of prime time, on public tv, to feature agencies, explain what they do and how they do it, how much it costs, and request public input. I would also like to see something like the Hoover Commission to fix gov (google it). Instead the current Republican regime is trying to pass a law which allows preaching politics from the pulpit (basic insanity, I think).

Anyway................

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#304495 - 12/17/17 08:09 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7262
Loc: North San Diego County
The biggest clue to what's wrong with this administration is they censored the CDC so they can't use the terms "science-based" or "evidence-based" in their reports. I think that says it all. They don't want their own agencies to publish anything that contradicts their fantasies.

We desperately need a real physical exam and psychiatric evaluation of Donald Trump and I would say let's get one for Pence as well, because it does no good to get rid of the top guy if his successor is crazy too.

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#304496 - 12/17/17 09:22 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1794
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I absolutely agree on the psychiatric exams. If sanity returns perhaps it could be made a rule for all candidates?

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#304498 - 12/17/17 11:33 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Loc: Puget Sound, WA


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#304499 - 12/18/17 01:43 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: rporter314]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13865
Loc: Florida
Quote:
They of course could just be stupid

A profound thought if it's true...

Something I've noticed; when you hear someone say something really stupid, and then look at little closer at the speaker's worldview, more often than not they're a conservative.

When you see someone do something really stupid(often preceded by the words "Hold my beer...") and look a little closer...yep, a Republican.

And then if you point out the stupidity to them and they look at you like you're stupid....Republican.

They're stupid, there's really no way around it.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#304500 - 12/18/17 01:48 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8701
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Greger
They're stupid, there's really no way around it.

That’s not a very satisfying explanation, but it seems to be the only one that works...
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"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#304503 - 12/18/17 12:30 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8701
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Two words: Corker Kickback.

A nice little retirement gift...
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"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#304505 - 12/18/17 02:42 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6284
Loc: Highlands, Tx
even if Sen Corker becomes contrary, they still have the votes (with VP Pence providing the margin of victory over the middle class)
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#304506 - 12/18/17 03:49 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: rporter314]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8701
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Maybe the emerging scandal will change a couple of minds. Even if they do pass it, there's a good deal more shite involved that will stick through the midterms.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#304507 - 12/18/17 06:29 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1794
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Corker AND Trump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#304509 - 12/18/17 06:32 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6284
Loc: Highlands, Tx
{reality check}-->

look at the current political climate .... I can not see at this time any Republican who would seriously suggest not passing this bill, or impeaching Mr Trump. Consider J Moore. While there were a number of Republicans who abhorred the idea of who Moore is and was, they would still consider him a political necessity to complete their agenda.

So why would it matter if there was a Korker Kickback? I haven't heard Hannity mention it (LOL because of his hypocrisy). Tax cut (not tax reform) has been a long time conservative dream (and not to mention repeal of the ACA mandate). They will pass it regardless of daily blowback.

<--{reality check}
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#304510 - 12/18/17 08:17 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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I'm sorry to say, rp, that you are exactly right. Not that you're right, you usually are, but that the implication/analysis is where we are. There is nothing economically sound about the tax cut - quite the contrary - but there is nothing that can counteract the political/personal benefit basis for its passage.

The Republican Congress is well aware that they are on the way out, and don't know when they get another opportunity to do this much damage to the government. GW Bush is jealous. It will be the work of generations to recover from these depredations. Our times parallel the 1930s so closely it is scary. We are barreling towards a world war to make the parallel complete.

I don't see sanity taking ahold until after the year end, and by then it will be too late. Reversing this damage immediately will be impossible until 2020, with the obstructive behavior of McConnell/Pence (okay, and maybe Trump, if he survives another year). Ryan has been wet-dreaming of this moment for a decade. Pray for our children.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304511 - 12/19/17 12:00 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7262
Loc: North San Diego County
Trump has just saved his heirs billions on estate tax.

Regarding the Treasury Department's phony "analysis" justifying the tax bill. They just wrote a single page that started with the assumption that the economy would grow at 3% per year and then made all their numbers fit that assumption. But I bet this is how ALL of Trump's business plans work: A list of the rosiest possible assumptions and then <profit>. This is exactly why he managed to bankrupt two major casinos! That takes a very special talent because even with community college business degree types or gangsters running them they practically print money. I doubt a random person off the street could do worse.

Now our country is being had in a gigantic con game, all because the rubes are dumber than ever.

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#304527 - 12/20/17 01:14 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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So the House has to revote because two last minute amendments need to be stripped-out. One was to give a tax deduction to those paying for private school out of a tax deductible savings account.

So my federal student loan interest is no longer deductible, but paying for a private (read: religious) school was going to be tax deductible?

mad
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#304530 - 12/20/17 08:29 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
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Loc: North San Diego County
Apparently, the new tax bill really screws over Puerto Rico. Estimates are like 50% of their GDP!

So I assume tons of Puerto Ricans will move to Florida and since they can register and vote immediately, it should end Republican domination of Florida. None of those Puerto Ricans could vote in federal elections but they are citizens with the right to move anywhere in the US. I think they will pick Florida because the weather is most like home and the large Spanish-speaking population.

Even if they have to come by boat and live on welfare and unemployment for a while, at least they will have electricity and potable water. Florida is one state where they can actually get a job even if they don't speak much English.

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#304531 - 12/20/17 08:45 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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I'm so mad I'm depressed.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304534 - 12/20/17 10:09 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6284
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I was gonna comment but I don't want to initiate a series of events which have deleterious results

keep your head up .... this should inspire to resist
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#304535 - 12/20/17 10:55 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13865
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I'm so mad I'm depressed.

Did you imagine for one moment that this wasn't going to pass?

This is what Republicans do. This is why we don't like them.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#304539 - 12/21/17 02:33 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7262
Loc: North San Diego County
I'm not depressed. It's just another nail in their coffin, as far as I can see. But this won't actually hurt me financially for a few years: This is the first year that we are taking the standard deduction because we paid off our mortgage. The big standard deduction will help. I'm thinking maybe we incorporate our rentals into a pass-through if that helps...

And by the time it all takes effect, the Republicans should be a little ball of dirt in our rear view mirrors. With a good Democratic sweep, we can change it all back. That's the problem with single-party legislation. It has no permanence. And we know exactly how crappy their tax ideas are because we have Kansas as an example.

They really should be paying attention to CHIP right now: If kids start to die for lack of care for chronic conditions they be widely condemned. Even by a lot of people who usually vote Republican. DACA too.

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#304549 - 12/21/17 06:37 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Posts: 15681
I will not personally be hurt by this tax cut, except when it destroys the economy and the government we all share. I'm just offended by the crass and careless greed that inspired it. As I have reiterated, there is no economic basis for it, no policy basis for it, no rational basis for it, or even a political basis for it. There is, however, a greed basis for it - crass, despicable, overweening, obscene greed.

40% for the 1%.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304550 - 12/21/17 05:01 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 707
Well here's a growing thought on that: Seeds of destruction, roots of despair?

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#304551 - 12/21/17 05:41 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6284
Loc: Highlands, Tx
shouldn't that be

Eve of Destruction

"Yeah my blood's so mad feels like coagulating
I'm sitting here just contemplatin'
I can't twist the truth it knows no regulation
Handful of senators don't pass legislation
And marches alone can't bring integration
When human respect is disintegratin'
This whole crazy world is just too frustratin'"
Barry McGuire

written in a different time but maybe they are all the same
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#304552 - 12/21/17 06:34 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 707
Whoops wrong link out. My bad meant to post the intergenerational fight that seems to be playing out right now:
Boomertown or bust


Edited by chunkstyle (12/21/17 06:35 PM)

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#304554 - 12/21/17 07:26 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15681
You Cannot Be Too Cynical About the Republican Tax Bill - NYT, Opinion.
Quote:
The rush to enact the tax bill was designed to mask — as a break for the middle class — what is in fact a $1.4 trillion package of benefits for key donors and lobbyists, the richest members of Congress, President Trump, his family and other families like his.

The speed from introduction to passage — seven weeks, with no substantive hearings — effectively precluded expert examination of the legislation’s regressive core, its special interest provisions and the long-term penalties it imposes on the working poor and middle class through the use of an alternative measure of inflation — the “chained CPI.”

Only last Friday, when the legislation came out of conference committee and was no longer subject to amendment — and when decisive majorities of House and Senate Republicans had publicly committed to vote for the legislation — did experts and journalists begin to fully catch up with its defects.
One of the problems that just surfaced: Why Trump Won't Be Signing His Tax Cuts Right Away - The Atlantic. Yet another huge lie....
Quote:
The reason for the possible delay involves a complicated bit of legislative gamesmanship. Under a 2010 “pay-as-you-go” law requiring Congress to offset any new spending or lower taxes, the $1.5 trillion bill would trigger automatic cuts to Medicare and other programs—across-the-board reductions that Republicans don’t want to be responsible for letting take effect. By waiting until the calendar turns to 2018 to formally enact the tax bill, Trump would push the automatic spending cuts to 2019 and buy Congress another year to waive them.


Americans brace for fallout from GOP tax bill; corporations happy - TRMS.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304555 - 12/21/17 07:41 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1794
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
First, it would be absolutely great if the voters came out and removed all republicans from congress but I don't see that happening. The Moore thing is a good example of why it won't. Moore was, to put it mildly, quite possibly the worst political candidate of a generation. On top of that every black athlete and politician went down there to get out the black vote and stop Moore too. The Dems also actually outspent the Republicans in that race. There is more than that but, I think, my point is made. In spite of all that this was not exactly a runaway election. The voters on the right will stick with Trump through thick and thin and, I think, that holds true of the rest of the extremists too. The Left has been crowing about how they are going to win everything, I am not sure that is going to happen. For starters I would also expect those on the far left will run their own candidate thereby splitting the vote of the Left.

Remember too that the Republicans do an absolutely great job of scaring people to death, demonizing, lying and they have the bucks to do just that (especially after the taking care of their donor case with their whiz bang giveaway to them). Anyway, its fun to think about actually being able to deal with stuff but the reality is that its not going to be all that easy. The Republican party, for instance, after all their cries, whines, and moans about Trump, have gone over to that dark side with some vigor. Add to that the simple fact that while they have put off dropping the middle class cuts for 8 years thereby allowing their followers to love the tax cut. Unfortunately it would seem that voters don't spend a lot of time on anything but the present. They won't be happy in 8 years but the Right will deal with that when the time comes (they are also really expert in "dealing with it later").

I get a pile of emails, everyday, from the Left. The problem is that they are all about me giving them money. There is a lot of late Trump, hate the tax cut, stuff, etc. I have yet to read one that has any kind of plan and no explanation as to how they are going to beat the Right, etc. I would love it if they had a plan and would really love it if they could replace every one on the Right but ..............

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#304558 - 12/21/17 09:37 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: jgw]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6284
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
Moore was, to put it mildly, quite possibly the worst political candidate of a generation.

Unfortunately that would be your opinion and not that of the many ultra conservatives. populists and nativists out there in Trumpland. J Moore represents the base. Most of the elected nuts maintain politically correct pubic presence, thus they are not on the record as being against Muslims, gays, etc, one can infer based on what they do say what they really believe (and do not pay attention to their lame, I did not say those words, excuse). I suspect we are in for Moore (pun intended) of the same type of candidate. After all, to listen to Republicans, Mr Trump was without a doubt the worst Republican candidate, and exhibited numerous faults which would have impacted all but a narcissist, and the country judged him to be worthy of the presidency.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
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#304711 - 12/29/17 07:42 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: rporter314]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15681
I put a lengthy post in the "Worst Case Scenario" thread, that maybe should have gone here, but I'm going to leave it there for now. I want to expand a little, though, on just how terrible, horrible, no good, very bad this tax fraud is going to be.

"Capital" in the United States is grossly undertaxed. Capital, in this case, includes physical and financial capital.

Physical capital is primarily the nuts and bolts activity of companies - factories, materiel, computers, etc. Most of this stuff is acquired with debt. When structured properly, these items can be acquired for virtually no taxes/outlay.
Quote:
about 40 percent of corporate investment is
debt-financed. Debt-financed investments are actually subsidized through the corporate tax system since interest payments
are deductible and provisions such as accelerated depreciation
allow deductions in excess of the true cost of capital.
Is U.S. Corporate Income Double - Taxed? Here's how: suppose a company wants to set up a server farm. They need $100 million in infrastructure expenses. They have a contract with IBM to provide the computer systems with a 10-year purchase plan. They then write off 10% of the value of the computers per year (depreciation) on their taxes - exactly what they are paying for them from IBM. At the end of 10 years they have written off the entire value of the computers and paid 0 taxes on the purchase (and only interest on the contract from IBM - which they can then deduct).

Financial capital is monetary equivalents - stocks, bonds, etc. Most of this (70+%) is untaxed. Is U.S. Corporate Income Double-Taxed? What's worse, most of this untaxed capital is "excess profit" (After-tax profits at all-time high): "U.S. Treasury economists estimate the fraction of the corporate tax base that is excess profits (above the risk-free rate of return) is about 75 percent." Does Taxing U.S. Corporations Make Sense in a Global Economy? EconoFact. Most of this is held in the form of stocks, much of it in tax-deferred accounts (think 401(k)s).

Add on top of this that the "capital gains" rate is well below the "income tax" rate, and the Treasury is getting royally screwed on collecting tax on legitimate income. Most financial companies structure salaries as "pass through" capital gains, rather than wages (think Mitt Romney, Goldman Sachs). Most of those who are in the top 1% of the income class get almost none of that in the form of "salary" subject to the full income tax. When one understands how skewed the current tax system is toward the "investor class" rather than the "working class" (those that earn most of their income in wages rather than investments), it becomes overwhelmingly obvious just how bad this tax cut process is to the working stiffs of America.

You will often hear right-wing economists (which is most of them) alleging that "corporate profits get taxed twice". This is one of the grossest lies of all in this grossly mendacious discussion. The reality is that most corporate profits (other than small mom-and-pop operations) never get taxed at all. Those that do get taxed at far lower rates than a middle-class bread winner. This tax bill just made that situation substantially worse.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304713 - 12/29/17 08:02 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1794
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Taxes are interesting and our current system is a fraud, pure and simple. Somehow we have forgotten that taxes are, basically, to pay the bills, no more no less. When established it think it was something like 8 pages long, now its something like 70,000 which includes the latest "tax cut" which was, again, another fraud. The left salted it with good works and social engineering, and the right salted it with things that they needed so that they could "provide jobs"

In the 1950's, for instance, that mythic time when America was "great" the very rich got to pay 85% in taxes and yet, if you listen carefully, this was the best time America ever had. Everybody was happy, there was no crime, gov functioned, women knew their place, no homeless, and schools taught kids all the right stuff in the right way (I could go on but .....) That was also a time of limited amendments to taxes but it was already growing.

This latest thing is just offensive. For instance, the corporate tax rate. Gov tells us that the actual tax rate, paid by corporation is somewhere between 14 and 16 percent. This latest trope will take that down to somewhere around 10 to 12 percent (they didn't remove any of the various amendments designed to help the overtaxed).

We REALLY need a simple tax plan that pays the bills, that is simple and graduated so that them that got more get to pay more for the privilege of living here and doing business here.

Just saying..............

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#304720 - 12/30/17 07:58 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15681
Although I've made this argument before, I'll state it again: There is no tax or economic reason for distinguishing between types of income, and all should be taxed at the same, progressive, rate. In fact, the current tax structure distorts the economy in specific and detrimental ways. For example: structuring pay to avoid wage taxes.
Quote:
The often-fuzzy line between income from capital and labour means a large gap in relative tax rates breeds tax avoidance. When wage taxes are high and capital taxes are low, firms simply shift compensation from salaries to stock options and dividends, cutting revenue without boosting growth. All told, capital-tax rates as high or higher than those on labour may make sense,
Zero-sum debate - The Economist. (Emphasis mine) Considerable effort by lawyers and accountants goes into tax avoidance, which is a completely economically worthless activity.

Moreover, there is almost no evidence that higher taxes on higher income has a negative effect on the economy at all. In fact, there is a growing body of evidence (Evidence?! We don't need not steenkin' evidence!) that these back and forth changes on the tax rates discourages investment and savings.
Quote:
[R]ising inequality is a destabilising political force, which may encourage future governments to expropriate wealth through heavy taxation. That threat could discourage saving and investment now, something a weak economy cannot afford. Paradoxically, a progressive tax on capital in the present may lead to more investment by keeping inequality in check and by convincing firms that their wealth is (mostly) safe over the long term.
That $3 trillion in cash that American corporations parked overseas was not invested, but hidden there because multinational corporations anticipated that tax rates might be lowered in the future like they were in 2004. So for over a decade that money has been withheld from the economy and stunted growth at the very time it was needed.

The solution is simple: a graduated tax on all income with limited deductions. Capital, wages, dividends, inheritance. Tax it all the same way and at the same rate. If on day 365 you have more money than you did on day one, it gets taxed, period. That will discourage artificial manipulation of the economy to get tax advantages and will not inhibit investment or savings at all. All transfers of wealth get taxed the same.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304721 - 12/30/17 08:32 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15681
From the Worst Case thread:
Originally Posted By: Ujest Shurly
No, it can get worse, much worse. Starting with the Republicans get their act together and pass regressive laws.
The Tax Cut frenzy of 2017 is exactly that.

This corporate/billionaire tax cut is going to be devastating in about 18 months. Initially, it will look like great guns as corporations repatriate trillions in overseas profits. How Tax Bills Would Reward Companies That Moved Money Offshore. These companies stashed money overseas to keep it from being taxed - a tax dodge. "Over the past few decades, some of the largest companies in the United States made a big bet: By stashing hundreds of billions of dollars of profits offshore, they could slash their taxes and bolster their profits."

Now the GOP has made that tax dodge pay off big time. Like the 2004 giveaway by President Bush, this giveaway is a godsend to capital-rich financiers:

Quote:
The tax breaks for bringing home such offshore profits “confirm the central tenet of tax planning that a tax deferred is a tax avoided,” said David Miller, a tax lawyer at Proskauer Rose. “For decades, U.S. multinationals have shifted profits abroad and deferred their taxes on them. If either of the tax bills pass, they will be rewarded for doing so.”
The biggest bankers, like Goldman Sachs, moreover, are "writing down" their losses in taxes and maneuvering to avoid even more taxes. In Goldman Sachs' case, they're paying $5 billion now, and have avoided $15 billion with the tax dodge. That's a 300% return!

The $3 trillion in stashed cash will allow companies that have engineered the dodge to avoid similar amounts - squeezing nearly a $1 trillion out of treasury. Where will all that money go? Well.... it's estimated that 50% will go directly to buy-backs of stock (corporations reducing outstanding stocks) and artificially inflate the books - great for investors, especially hedge funds, and it will also artificially inflate stock prices - for the next year. Wall Street says a major fear about Trump's tax plan is overblown (Don't believe Wall Street.) After that, well.... there will be a "market correction."

The rest of that windfall will go to - debt payments. Companies have been borrowing like crazy while interest rates are near 0%. But it's still debt. Getting debt off the books will make the bottom line look great. Unfortunately, when they have to borrow again (like, for taking over smaller competitors), it will be at higher rates.

After the first quarter of 2018, tax revenues to the United States Treasury will plummet - by about 40%. Yes, 40%. How Much Will Trump's Tax Plan Cost? That "$1.4 trillion" deficit expectation? Fantasy. Realistically, it will be twice that. The bite will begin to be felt in 2019 (conveniently after elections), and will be raging by 2022 - forget 2025 when the individual cuts expire. Expect a massive slow-down in the economy much sooner.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304728 - 12/31/17 01:00 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7262
Loc: North San Diego County
You left out massive special dividend payments to shareholders. Last time we did this a large portion of the repatriated money went to such dividends. The interesting thing is that almost NONE of it went to new investments in capacity and new hires. In fact, companies are sitting on piles of cash inside the US tax system right now. if they thought investments in growth and new jobs would benefit them, they would already be doing it. They are not.

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#304732 - 12/31/17 03:33 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15681
Well said, p-i-a. Indeed, the evidence from the 2004 cut is that they cut jobs. From a macroeconomic standpoint this is the worst time to cut taxes.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304733 - 12/31/17 04:02 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6284
Loc: Highlands, Tx
for conservatives anytime is a good time to cut taxes .... they do not like government
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#304740 - 12/31/17 05:32 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: rporter314]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13865
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: rporter314
for conservatives anytime is a good time to cut taxes .... they do not like government

But y'know...in the long run government has to deliver on certain promises people have come to expect. They start mucking around with Social Security checks and Medicare and there's a whole lot of old Republicans that are gonna have issues with it and vote accordingly.

There will be a reckoning at some point with the actual results of this tax cut. Our government already spends more than it collects in taxes and other revenue. Republicans are not penny pincers when it comes to spending public funds either, so deficits will soar, services and infrastructure will suffer. Like Obamacare, this one is gonna need some adjustments down the road.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#304742 - 12/31/17 12:37 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7262
Loc: North San Diego County
Yeah, even Ronald Reagan said: "Oops, we cut taxes too much." at one point and raised them.

It is kind of silly to have medical insurance for everybody subsidized for anybody who can't afford it, and then say we should have lower taxes too. It just doesn't make any sense.

Borrowing it from the future is like getting a credit card advance to pay off your other credit balance.

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#304749 - 12/31/17 08:09 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15681
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Yeah, even Ronald Reagan said: "Oops, we cut taxes too much." at one point and raised them.
This is another of those "truths" that tax-cut happy politicians happily ignore. Taxes: What people forget about Reagan
Quote:
[D]espite his public opposition to higher taxes, Reagan ended up signing off on several measures intended to raise more revenue.

"Reagan was certainly a tax cutter legislatively, emotionally and ideologically. But for a variety of political reasons, it was hard for him to ignore the cost of his tax cuts," said tax historian Joseph Thorndike.

Two bills passed in 1982 and 1984 together "constituted the biggest tax increase ever enacted during peacetime," Thorndike said.

The bills didn't raise more revenue by hiking individual income tax rates though. Instead they did it largely through making it tougher to evade taxes, and through "base broadening" -- that is, reducing various federal tax breaks and closing tax loopholes.
- CNN Money (Emphasis added). During Reagan's presidency, the national debt almost tripled and the U.S. went from being the world's largest creditor nation to the world's largest debtor in under eight years.
Quote:
According to a 2003 Treasury study, the tax cuts in the Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981 resulted in a significant decline in revenue relative to a baseline without the cuts, approximately $111 billion (in 1992 dollars) on average during the first four years after implementation or nearly 3% GDP annually.
- Wikipedia, Reaganomics. Spending did not fall relative to GDP, but actually increased.

They also like to ignore the dire effects on the deficit and real impact on the economy. From the CNN Article:
Quote:
Reagan's behavior might not pass muster with those voters today who insist their Congressmen treat every proposed tax increase as poisonous to the republic.

"By today's standards, the Gipper would easily qualify for status as a back-stabbing, treacherous RINO [Republican in Name Only]," wrote Tax Analysts contributing editor Martin Sullivan, in an article for Tax Notes in May.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304761 - 01/01/18 05:34 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40730
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


Welp, here it is...

Quote:
“Is it our goal to increase return to our shareholders and do we have an excess amount of capital? The answer to both is, yes,” Sloan told CNN Money. “So our expectation should be that we will continue to increase our dividend and our share buybacks next year and the year after that and the year after that.”

--Wells Fargo CEO Tim Sloa


Think Progress


Trump supporters got conned again by Don. LOL
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#304762 - 01/01/18 06:12 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40730
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#304781 - 01/02/18 05:12 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7262
Loc: North San Diego County
Exactly, and that's why I'm going to incorporate and create a pass-thru business this year. I hate this tax bill, but I've got to live with it.

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#304788 - 01/02/18 07:47 PM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12888
Loc: Whittier, California
What would happen if EVERY SINGLE American decided to "become a corporation"?
Could it work to help stop the Trump juggernaut of corporate wealthcare?
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."

----Leon Russell - "Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#304806 - 01/03/18 02:08 AM Re: Big Lies and Tax Cuts [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7262
Loc: North San Diego County
I also bought several hundred thousands worth of Pfizer, Merck, GE, Apple, Pepsico, Cisco, and CitiGroup stock today. They all have tons of profit in overseas holdings they will probably repatriate and pay the 10% tax. And I'm betting they do it during 2018 because these tax vacations usually last only a short time.

Last time they did it, just about none of the companies spent their repatriated profit on new equipment or hires. They gave it to shareholders as dividends or stock buybacks.

Pfizer has 96% of their total US capitalization overseas. If they bring it all back, their value goes up 86%!

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