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#304058 - 11/22/17 08:01 PM 'fixing' the internet
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1937
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
http://reason.com/blog/2017/11/21/ajit-pai-net-neutrality-podcast?utm_medium=email

Current internet rankings:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinmurnan...s/#52f774cc65b5

Not unlike everything else that gov 'fixes' we are slower than most other industrialized and also get to pay more than most of the other industrialized.

After gov is through 'fixing', of course, things are not going to be particularly better (except for them that can pay the bucks)

Our speed is half that of Norway, you know, that country which the happiest on earth even though they are taxed a lot more than we are. The difference being, of course, that their leaders actually function in their own national interest with little waste. (sorry, couldn't resist)


Edited by jgw (11/22/17 08:02 PM)

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#304059 - 11/22/17 09:08 PM Re: 'fixing' the internet [Re: jgw]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 293
Loc: Michigan, USA
The real kicker, we invented the internet and we rank so poorly.
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#304062 - 11/22/17 09:35 PM Re: 'fixing' the internet [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13121
Loc: Whittier, California
I'm through with trying to petition a fascist banana republic to consider the needs of its people, when the best we might hope for is a temporary stay due to massive public outcry, only to be forced into the same crisis a couple of years later, where we again go down the same road, endure the same giant lawsuits by big telecom and watch our legislators bow to lobbyists.

It's not going to work, it's never going to work, we will never have security and stability in our data infrastructure. We're not the customers, we are the product, we are the commodity, and it is in their best interest to SQUEEZE us dry.

If I had the money and the resources, I would commence building a new and separate public internet that runs alongside the commercial one, and which ignores ANY and ALL new "laws" designed to protect the interests of the big conglomerates.
It would be the data equivalent of a Brazilian favela, and with enough public awareness and enough available resources, millions of people would gradually switch, or at the very least, ADD the service for use when their own commercial internet begins to fail them.

With enough participation, the government would be unable to enforce any action, because the agencies tasked with that responsibility would bankrupt themselves.

It has happened before:

In the mid-1970's the heavily regulated and enforced "Citizen's Band Radio Service" suddenly experienced a cultural tsunami. Movies, music and popular culture branded CB as an icon and as a pastime.
Previously, users had to apply for licenses to operate and conduct was strictly regulated.
The FCC was attempting to crack down further on activity when the trucker revolution hit.
Suddenly, in 1977, forty million Americans got CB radios for Christmas and the FCC was unable to enforce diddly squat.

Two months later the FCC dropped the license requirements altogether.
CB radio had become a "favela", a very successful favela.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304064 - 11/22/17 10:51 PM Re: 'fixing' the internet [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7565
Loc: North San Diego County
You can actually do that right now. There are several schemes and dirt-cheap hardware for creating ad-hoc networks. If everybody in a community wanted to join in, they could easily all be linked together with wifi links.

But that only gets you connected to the people in your community. It does not get you to all the content providers we all seem to love and need. To connect to somebody on the other side of the country, you need a fiber backbone. Those are expensive and only big companies own them. If government ran backbones, we could have the kind of service you envision, but they don't. (But I bet they do in Norway!)

I think the only thing this will affect is real-time streaming of high resolution video. If a backbone is carrying high-res video and much lower time-sensitivity traffic like email and web service, then it makes sense to prioritize. You won't notice if your web surfing takes an extra 1/10th of a second, but random 1/10th second delays in video make it unwatchable.

It's very easy for a router to identify video packets versus others, so this would be simple to implement. Just turning on this feature would make EVERYONE a lot happier with their internet service but it violates net neutrality rules.

The point being, that there are certain types of net optimization we will all like and other types we will hate. So let's concentrate on outlawing the bad ones.

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#304066 - 11/22/17 11:27 PM Re: 'fixing' the internet [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13121
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
You can actually do that right now. There are several schemes and dirt-cheap hardware for creating ad-hoc networks. If everybody in a community wanted to join in, they could easily all be linked together with wifi links.


PIA, it's not difficult to connect a backbone to that ad hoc network.
And since one would be purchasing a business pipe, the usual net neutrality rules don't apply because when you purchase business pipe, that's what separates it from residential, the uptime and the guaranteed neutrality. YOU, as the new ad hoc ISP, set the rules for packets.
That IS the "favela" I am talking about.

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
The point being, that there are certain types of net optimization we will all like and other types we will hate. So let's concentrate on outlawing the bad ones.


With this ruling, outlawing the bad ones won't be possible anymore, ever. We will be at their mercy.

And besides, this is also going to kill off the cord cutters.
That's another aspect of the problem, people are sick of paying ridic high prices for sat and cable, for channels they never watch, and they'd rather cut the cord and get their content via the internet over smart TV's.

All that goes away once Big Telco gets to decide what packets get through.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304067 - 11/22/17 11:41 PM Re: 'fixing' the internet [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13121
Loc: Whittier, California
Fox News, Sinclair, Breitbart and InfoWars will be FREE with any internet plan
but if you want CBS, BBC, Reuters, the New York Times, CNN or MSNBC, it's going to cost double.
That's how it's gonna be once net neutrality goes away.

Can you show me how that isn't the reality in today's political climate?
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304068 - 11/23/17 01:41 AM Re: 'fixing' the internet [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7565
Loc: North San Diego County
My current ISP IS Cox Cable, they can't sell me TV signals without putting in about $15,000 worth of buried cable plus repeaters, and the only media website I like that wants to charge me is The Washington Post.

So I'm seeing the opposite of what you are predicting. And lack of net neutrality does not mean ISPs can shut off certain packets. It just means that some packets (like streaming from Netflix 4K) arrive in an isochronous manner. Packets from Huffington Post still get to you with the same random timing they do now.

The whole network neutrality thing is overblown: First of all, it's about how you UPGRADE the network. Do you make all traffic run faster or do you concentrate on the traffic that needs to run faster? I really don't care if my email comes in at 28.8 kbaud, but I want my Netflix not to stutter.

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#304069 - 11/23/17 04:04 AM Re: 'fixing' the internet [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13121
Loc: Whittier, California
Well, anyway, we would LIKE to concentrate on outlawing the bad ones but there are NO provisions for doing so whatsoever in the proposed deregulation about to smack us upside the head. If you see any such provisions in the comments over at FCC.gov, please do us all a favor and link them so that we can all be enlightened.

I recognize that some packets (like streaming from Netflix 4K) would simply arrive in an isochronous manner while packets from Huffington Post still get to me with the same random timing they do now.

I recognize that it's about how you UPGRADE the network.

But minus the provisions to shield us from the vagaries of human nature, I suspect that our new reality will be a lot more like I described above.
That's because nothing will stop big telco from arranging it that way, simply because they can, simply because it helps their agenda.

You can argue physics and free markets all day long and you'd be mostly right, but if you ignore political agendas, you have not been paying attention. The agenda is clear, the agenda is to "muzzle der Lugenpresse" as Donald sees it.
The agenda is to make it impossible to be a cord cutter.

All the physics in the world pale next to those two items.

And PS: WaPo is simply doing what they've always done, charging for a "newspaper".
That has nothing to do with the telcos.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304082 - 11/23/17 11:57 PM Re: 'fixing' the internet [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13121
Loc: Whittier, California
Here's an interesting development!
If the FCC and its cronies are so damn sure that sunsetting net neutrality is a fine and dandy idea, you'd think they'd have the confidence to let the idea stand on its own merits.

Apparently not.

Quote:
The generic text in question — “The unprecedented regulatory power the Obama Administration imposed,” it begins — currently appears in some 800,000 of the 22 million comments filed with the FCC.


Investigation of fake net neutrality foes has been stymied by the FCC, New York AG says

Robert Reich weighs in:

Quote:
"By law, when a federal agency like the FCC proposes to change a rule such as net neutrality, it’s supposed to call for public comment.

But apparently hundreds of thousands if not millions of comments seemingly urging repeal of the FCC's net neutrality rule have been faked. Just days after the public comment process opened, reporters began noticing identical comments critical of the Obama-era rule, and many so-called “signers” say they never sent in comments.

In an open letter to FCC Chairman Ajit Pai, New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman charges that the FCC’s public comment process “has been corrupted by the fraudulent use of Americans’ identities,” and that the “perpetrators have attempted to drown out the views of the real people, businesses, and others who honestly commented on this important issue.”

Yet the FCC has declined to cooperate with Schneiderman’s investigation, rebuffing requests for logs and other records associated with the comments. Schneiderman says he has made at least 9 requests for records from the FCC between June and November that have gone unanswered.

Once again, the integrity of the nation’s democratic process is being threatened. And once again, it’s the Trump administration that appears to be responsible – and refusing to investigate.

What do you think?"


Republicans just can't participate in democracy or in plain simple justice without putting their thumb on the scale.
Then they turn around and screech about Obama "disobeying the Constitution" and "California ignoring the law".

_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304088 - 11/24/17 03:22 PM Re: 'fixing' the internet [Re: jgw]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 293
Loc: Michigan, USA
Before the current head of the FCC was even considered for the position, FCC Chairman Ajit Pai was a known anti-Net Neutrality advocate. He will not let a small thing like fake public anti-net neutrality comments get in the way of achieving his goal. He will end net neutrality as soon as he can. Without some outside process, legal or congressional, 2018 will be the year a open an equal internet will die.

More Republican fox in the hen house syndrome...
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#304091 - 11/24/17 07:35 PM Re: 'fixing' the internet [Re: Ujest Shurly]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13121
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Ujest Shurly
Before the current head of the FCC was even considered for the position, FCC Chairman Ajit Pai was a known anti-Net Neutrality advocate. He will not let a small thing like fake public anti-net neutrality comments get in the way of achieving his goal. He will end net neutrality as soon as he can. Without some outside process, legal or congressional, 2018 will be the year a open an equal internet will die.

More Republican fox in the hen house syndrome...


I'm afraid I don't get where you're coming from.
The "fake" anti net neutrality comments are posing as his natural allies, and I don't quite see the exposure of those comments as possible fakes as being any kind of obstacle in today's post-truth/post-fact environment.
Republicans will categorically dismiss such charges as baseless and they will finish their work, that of not only doing away with net neutrality but with nearly all regulations whatsoever for ISP's.

The problem is not just the death of net neutrality, it's the lack of any structure to protect users from the predatory nature of a near duopoly-style comm infrastructure. There really are only TWO major conglomerates that form the bulk of our data backbone at this point.
There's more than two but if the two largest sneeze, everyone gets a cold.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304099 - 11/25/17 12:54 AM Re: 'fixing' the internet [Re: jgw]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40878
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


Can't someone bring a lawsuit to stop this rule from going into effect? Hmm
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#304100 - 11/25/17 01:54 AM Re: 'fixing' the internet [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13121
Loc: Whittier, California
Sure, and maybe we'll all be DEAD by the time there's a final ruling.
I much prefer setting up internet favelas everywhere.
A single business class gigabit pipe can serve a fairly good sized neighborhood.

Just like the best solution for the Trump tax code is for everyone to become a corporation, the best solution to Ajit Pai's deregulation of the net is for everyone to become an ISP.
At first they'll try to crack down but again, it's all in the numbers.
If forty million people start doing this, not only will they be unable to enforce anything, the big telcos will be apoplectic.
Final step is to nationalize the internet...that's the only thing these weasels will understand.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304102 - 11/25/17 03:48 AM Re: 'fixing' the internet [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7565
Loc: North San Diego County
If the big ISPs start to do too obnoxious stuff, it could mean the resurgence of smaller ISPs (who would draw customers by NOT doing that stuff). These could be collectives but much more likely just small businessmen. All they have to do is get a good connection into a backbone and a carrier agreement with a local telco or cable company to connect to people's homes.

I doubt customers would be willing to go back to dialup, so they have to use the connections people already have in their houses. I guess in dense areas, they could start wiring up their own wifi routers but it still is a problem getting packets back to their backbone connection. Telcos and cable companies have all the local franchises tied up, so you probably can't get your wire on their poles.

Google probably had the answer some time back: Put in underground fiber to each neighborhood and use wifi from that point. Not cheap if you have to dig.

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#304103 - 11/25/17 04:20 AM Re: 'fixing' the internet [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13121
Loc: Whittier, California
You are basically describing a lot of the points I was getting at, decentralized and more responsive ISP's based on neighborhood needs I'm just taking it the FAVELA route instead, because at this point feck their rules and feck their laws, let them try to enforce and prosecute when ten, twenty or even forty million users start flocking to the favelas.

If you know how the favelas operate outside the authority of the official cities in Brazil, then you understand what I am getting at. There will ALWAYS be a way to get business class high speed pipe put wherever it is needed. Lower overhead thanks to community involvement and nonprofit status, and running it like an ad hoc public service.

Will there be bumps and bruises? You bet there will be, just as there is with life in a favela, but you're outside the authority of Trump and the big telcos and the only limitation is the committment people are willing to put into it.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304118 - 11/26/17 12:27 AM Re: 'fixing' the internet [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15953
I think the Trump administration has a plan to fix the internet. They're going to put Mick Mulvaney in charge of it. Then the internet will be permanently fecked, just like everything else he touches. Oh, you did't mean "fixed" like your dog is "fixed"? ... oh well.
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