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#303917 - 11/13/17 09:24 PM sex assaults
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1761
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I was waiting for somebody to post on this but, I guess, I will do it. I am finding this whole thing to be kinda strange, from my view of it all. I am not spring chicken and I have watched guys grope, grip, pat, pet, touch, women for a very long time. People are treating this as if its a brand new thing - it is not. This is a cultural thing and most men know it and know men who do it. have some very good friends who we have known for over 50 years. The husband has been groping my wife for all those years (well, not anymore, he is now 95 and not up to it anymore). I once asked my wife if she wanted me to say anything and she said; "Its no problem, I am used to it and he isn't the only one." I went on to ask her about the whole thing as, at the time, I knew it happened but just never figured it out. My wife, on the other hand, had it figured out pretty good. She also said that if it ever passed a line (at the time I guess there was a line and some was tolerated) she would take care of it so I just let it pass.

My point is that this is a cultural thing that has been going on for a very long time. Its like growing up, being in high school, and noticing that the guys who got the ladies were the same as the guys who treated them like sh**. I never figured that one out either (I was a bit slow and never did it because I feared what would happen and just didn't have the guts (fortunately, as I look back).

Now, I think, its getting stopped. The ladies seem to have, finally, had enough and want to be done with. I have talked about this with some that I know and they, for the most part, admitted they might have "used to do some of that" but had stopped long ago in fear of their wives.

My point is that this is a cultural thing and comes in somewhere around the 'manly' category. The current victimizer of note is Roy Moore, a genuine piece of work who made his bones by being VERY religious and VERY male! (manly) He got where he is by mouthing religious nonsense and speaking directly to the Lord. Its REALLY time for him to get shut down!

Anyway, guys who do this don't think its all that wrong and I have know some who are actually bewildered. I think, however, that its becoming clear that its not only a bad thing to do but dangerous as hell!

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#303918 - 11/14/17 12:27 AM Re: sex assaults [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15571
There has always been a certain segment of our society that felt that this was a privilege of males. There have always been "lines" and there have always been those who regularly cross the lines. What some defined as "flirting" or "hitting on" was verbal, and some women have always felt that it was harassing and degrading, but some guys don't get it, and never have or will. Some are perfectly willing to get physical, and even forceful.

There have always been levels of intrusion, beginning with unsolicited advances (and cat calls) and progressing through harassment, assault, and rape. Different cultures have always had differing approaches to dealing with it.

What we have currently, is a cultural sea change, and I think, largely, we can credit/blame Donald Trump - and before him, Bill Clinton. The concept of sexual harassment and hostile work environment (or at least the terms) are relatively new.
Quote:
The concept of sexual harassment, in its modern understanding, is a relatively new one, dating from the 1970s onwards; although other related concepts have existed prior to this in many cultures. According to Judy Woodruff on the November 10, 2017 edition of the NPR News Hour, "Lin Farley is an author, journalist and noted feminist. She's credited with coining the term sexual harassment in the 1970's." The term sexual harassment was used in 1973 in "Saturn's Rings", a report authored by Mary Rowe to the then-President and Chancellor of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) about various forms of gender issues.
Wikipedia. See also A Brief History of Sexual Harassment in America Before Anita Hill - TIME; A Brief History of Sexual Harassment in the United States - NOW; and A Short History of Sexual Harassment - REVA B. SIEGEL.

I think what caused the dam to break was the election of Donald Trump following the publication of the "Access Hollywood" video/audio. There was a significant, and I think genuine, wave of disgust even in Republican circles. The female half of the population finally said "enough." Harvey Weinstein's predations were particularly appalling, but there was an ocean's worth of magma boiling beneath the surface just waiting to erupt. In virtually every sphere of modern culture the eruptions have occurred.
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#303919 - 11/14/17 12:57 AM Re: sex assaults [Re: jgw]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4939
In re Moore:

Try this on for a nightmare scenario:

Moore stays in the race and narrowly defeats Jones. He then goes to the Senate, which excludes him/refuses to seat him. The seat is vacant so the Republican Governor appoints Luther Strange to fill the remainder of Moore's six year term.

This is why they don't want Moore to withdraw. They keep the seat no matter who sits in it. If Moore withdraws now Jones is the likely winner.
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#303921 - 11/14/17 02:37 AM Re: sex assaults [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7146
Loc: North San Diego County
There's flirtation and there's abuse. They really are two very different things. Abuse involves some sort of power imbalance that makes the aggressor (usually but not always make) think they can force the victim to cooperate. Which makes actual rape unnecessary. But it really is a form of rape, just non-violent.

That's what a 30 year old adult DA can do with a 14 or 16 year old girl. He maybe never saw it as rape because he never held them down and tore their panties off, but they saw it as rape.

I bet he was careful to only find victims with single mothers, because if a father was around Ol' Roy would be missing some vital bits. This latest victim reinforces this idea: She told her mother and sister at the time, but there's no mention of a father.

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#303922 - 11/14/17 03:52 AM Re: sex assaults [Re: jgw]
Ujest Shurly Offline
stranger

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 243
Loc: Michigan, USA
I beg to differ; this is not a cultural thing, but a species thing. I have seen it happen in Germany, England, France, Spain, United States, Canada, Honduras, Panama, San Salvador, Mexico, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam. I have seen and heard of both males and females suffering this assault by both males and females. Does not make it right, it is wrong no matter who does it. It is like Rape, it is a crime of power and sickness.
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#303923 - 11/14/17 04:04 PM Re: sex assaults [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15571
I differ with your begging...

It is, if course, human to take advantage of advantages, and while something may exist nearly universally, how it is responded to is a cultural response. Most cultures in the world are patriarchal, some just more militantly so than others. Honor killings are widespread in places, but we recoil at the barbarity and wrong-headedness of it (because it's so uncivilized). Victim-blaming and revenge porn are a couple of our "norms", but even those are being fought vigorously - and legally.

I'm suggesting that our culture is changing - in fits and starts, mind you, and with vast regional differences. A decade ago homosexuality was punished civilly and criminally in most of the United States. Now gay marriage is accepted almost everywhere. More and more people are rejecting patriarchal extremism in favor of equality. It takes time, but the direction is good. Rome wasn't built - or destroyed - in a day. I'm just personally excited to see it happening at all.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#303926 - 11/14/17 06:10 PM Re: sex assaults [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7146
Loc: North San Diego County
The latest Roy Moore story is that he was banned from the Gadsden Mall when he was 30, for hitting on teenage girls. Local police and several people who worked there knew it, and are willing to talk to reporters about it. I think this may be the proverbial straw on the camel's back for Ol' Roy.

And I hear that "endorsement by 53 pastors" thingie was actually released by his wife and predates all this child molester stuff.

Buh bye.

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#303930 - 11/14/17 07:32 PM Re: sex assaults [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1761
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
All I can say about Mr. Moore is that he is going to reap the whirlwind. They have already started slyly attacking the accusers but its so obvious that its not going to hurt the offended much unless they back off and that doesn't look like its going to happen. This man is not only a sexual predator but a man who has used his religion to get ahead. People like this are the very worst of the worst and need to go. The proof of this is his treatment of girls. If he was so holy, and talked directly to the lord, and practiced what he preached it would be one thing but, instead the man lies and is a jackass, not unlike his hero the chief liar and jackass Donald Trump.

He will never, of course, be seated in the senate. Can you imagine what would happen if he was in the senate for a year, being covered constantly for using his talents for lying and jackassing? Any Republican running after something like that would lose their jobs and, for sure, one things politicians will not tolerate is ANY threat to them and their jobs and Mr. Moore is a genuine threat to them all.

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#303943 - 11/16/17 01:30 AM Re: sex assaults [Re: jgw]
TatumAH Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/18/11
Posts: 385
Loc: Upstate NY
The latest Alabama poll has Moore down by 12 points.

New alleged assaults continue to come out of the "wood"wurk, including grab-ass incidents after he was married! Mrs Moore delivered the most dreaded message known to men, to duh Judge: Honey, we have to talk!

I dont understand why Judge Moore doesn't just end all this controversy with the very simple act of going on TV and swearing to God and Jesus, on his Bible, that all of these claims are unfounded, and that he is not a purvert.

My smiling muscles are aching from considering t-rumps dilemma of supporting or condemning Moore from the standpoint of sexual predictor/creeper in chief!

Sad ROTFMOL
Tat
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#303944 - 11/16/17 03:31 AM Re: sex assaults [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7146
Loc: North San Diego County
No, the evangelical way is to go on TV and admit he's sinned.

"I asked Jesus for forgiveness, and I'm trying to lead a better life."

A couple of years without repeated incidents and Ol' Roy would be rehabilitated.

This kind of thing started with St. Augustine: "Lord, save me from sin, but not yet!"

Of course it's pretty easy not to hit on teens once your parts don't work anymore.

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