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#304438 - 12/15/17 02:24 PM Crypto- and local currencies
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8809
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
The Seven Social Sins of the World:

Wealth without work
Pleasure without conscience
Knowledge without character
Commerce without morality
Science without humanity
Worship without sacrifice
Politics without principle

— given by Mohandas Gandhi to his grandson Arun shortly before his assassination

Quote:
The world is on fire lately with the exponential growth of Bitcoin and other electronic cryptocurrencies. While some see these as speculative bubbles that are tied to nothing, used on the dark web to ransom hacked computers, and profligate users of electricity, others see Bitcoin and its ilk as our liberation from nation states and their central banks. Both could be true. Perhaps more important is that the platform underpinning Bitcoin, called blockchain technology, and later advances such as Ethereum, have the potential to completely transform the way that the world operates.

Quote:
There are a number of us who think not just about stopping the rampant destruction of the global economy, but about how to conceive an economic system that encourages repair, healing and regeneration. Going by the names bioregionalists, permaculturists, greens, steady-state economists – slowing down the mighty, gobbling engine that is neoliberal corporate capitalism isn’t enough for us; we want to reverse the trend.

Alternative currencies
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"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#304482 - 12/17/17 12:09 AM Re: Crypto- and local currencies [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13202
Loc: Whittier, California
The blockchain "mining" operation is more than a "profligate" consumer of electricity, it's a runaway user that threatens to gobble up every single watt of generating capacity.
It will outstrip every currently known method of generating energy at an exponential rate until it surpasses everything else on the planet.
The only means of supplying it with enough power is if we somehow master the elusive fusion platform, and even then it will still threaten our energy independence.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304483 - 12/17/17 12:22 AM Re: Crypto- and local currencies [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
we're doomed


Nope, not even close: Bitcoin mining only makes sense if the price of Bitcoin is more than the cost to mine it, JUST LIKE every other mined commodity. You could spend every cent of GPD on mining rare earths or platinum, but nobody does.

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#304504 - 12/18/17 12:42 PM Re: Crypto- and local currencies [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8809
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
A bitcoin miner
Quote:
Cryptocurrencies are riding high, but there are doubters.
Jamie Dimon, Chief executive officer of bank JP Morgan, says Bitcoin is a "fraud" and that "you can't have a business where people can invent a currency out of thin air."

Okay... except for banks, of course, who manufacture money by using debt.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#304594 - 12/23/17 01:44 PM Re: Crypto- and local currencies [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8809
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Here is an interesting read:

Carbon currency
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#304654 - 12/26/17 04:49 AM Re: Crypto- and local currencies [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13202
Loc: Whittier, California
I still wager that one could simply MINE carbon from the atmosphere and sell it using less energy than the energy needed to mine crypto-currencies.
What's to stop someone from mainstreaming the technology needed to mine atmospheric carbon, aside from a rule or law that prohibits it?
Neighborhoods could set up coop carbon mining operations funded by resident contributions that function like a Costco membership, and each resident would get a dividend.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304655 - 12/26/17 07:05 AM Re: Crypto- and local currencies [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
There is one such operation, where they are purifying CO2 from the atmosphere and selling to a nearby greenhouse facility. It makes plants grow faster. There is a certain level of light beyond which a plant can't photosynthesise any faster. The limit is always the unavailability of CO2. The CO2 is incorporated as plant material which eventually get returned to the atmosphere. So it is just carbon neutral.

To actually remove the carbon you would have to bury it, like reverse coal mining. I don't think anybody pays for that to happen, but with a carbon market it could. Of course the company buying those carbon credits is probably putting the same amount of carbon in the air.

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#304656 - 12/26/17 12:40 PM Re: Crypto- and local currencies [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8809
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Plants mine carbon from the atmosphere and bury it in the ground in teamwork with microbes. And it makes the soil more productive and water efficient.

The problem is with industrial farming, which depletes soil of carbon and nukes the microbial communities.

No fancy engineering or sterile sequestration of carbon is necessary, only a willingness to work with Nature and not against her.

_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#304660 - 12/26/17 10:15 PM Re: Crypto- and local currencies [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
Yes, it looks like getting our soils up to 3% carbon would be a very good thing in terms of agricultural efficiency. But that just makes more plant material, which is eaten or decays as compost, etc. The point being that it puts a bit more atmospheric carbon into that compartment, but that is NOT sequestration. All of that carbon ends up back in the atmosphere, one way or another. Even plant waste that goes into a landfill rots, turns into methane, and goes right back into the atmosphere.

I think there are only two compartments where carbon leaves the atmosphere for a very long time:

1) Carbon Dioxide dissolved in ocean water precipitates out as Calcium Carbonate to make very long lived limestone deposits. We could use this process to make our own calcium carbonate too.

2) We make pure carbon (or at least pure enough not to generate methane) and either bury it or do something like seal it into bricks and leave it on the surface. The problem with leaving it on the surface is Oxygen. Carbon can always burn or oxidize slower into CO2. Somebody would figure out sooner or later that these bricks are good fuel and we end up right back here.

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#304661 - 12/26/17 10:42 PM Re: Crypto- and local currencies [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8809
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Yes, it looks like getting our soils up to 3% carbon would be a very good thing in terms of agricultural efficiency. But that just makes more plant material, which is eaten or decays as compost, etc. The point being that it puts a bit more atmospheric carbon into that compartment, but that is NOT sequestration. All of that carbon ends up back in the atmosphere, one way or another. Even plant waste that goes into a landfill rots, turns into methane, and goes right back into the atmosphere.

It is incorrect that no sequestration occurs.

Soil Carbon Roadshow


Edited by logtroll (12/26/17 10:54 PM)
Edit Reason: refinement
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#304665 - 12/27/17 03:15 AM Re: Crypto- and local currencies [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
Well, there's sequestration and then there's sequestration. I have a tendency to consider it sequestered only if it stays there on the geological time scale.

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#304666 - 12/27/17 05:53 AM Re: Crypto- and local currencies [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13202
Loc: Whittier, California
They've also been experimenting with mining CO2 from the atmosphere and turning it back into solids and into fuels. Or so I've heard. I bet even THOSE operations use less energy than Bitcoin mining, especially if they are solar powered.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304690 - 12/28/17 09:00 AM Re: Crypto- and local currencies [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
At least they have a useful end product. Bitcoin mining does not.

But the really successful operations are using fossil fuel power plant output as their input. They get a lot more CO2 that way and it would just get dumped into the atmosphere otherwise. One of the problems is that it takes as much or more energy to turn waste CO2 into fuel as you get by burning the fuel to begin with. This is why "clean coal" is a bad joke. Second Law of Thermodynamics and all.

But it is a way you could make methane out of waste CO2 and solar energy, and feed the methane back into the natural gas system. Probably more efficient though just to feed the solar energy right into the electric grid.

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