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#304439 - 12/15/17 05:37 PM the biggest redistribution of wealth
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
As far as I can tell the biggest redistribution of wealth in the history of America is about to take place. I get some small bit of humor on this one. Historically its the Right that claims that the left is, yet again, redistributing wealth and taking money away from those who provide jobs to take care of the bums. This time, however, its exactly the opposite of that, ie. they are taking money away from the bums and giving it to the richest in the nation. I would have thought that the Left would be raging about this but, while they are talking about it they are not using clever phrases, like "redistribution of wealth" but, instead, facts and figures. As far as I can tell the facts and figures approach simply bores the sleeping American electorate. In the realm of demonization the Left really should examine just how, and why, the Right is so effective when they demonize. I think there is no doubt as to the effectiveness of those efforts by the right. They, for instance, destroyed Hillary with lies and innuendos and they did it over a 30/35 year period.

We should also remember that the Right has a second shoe to drop after they make the redistribution - paying for it! Its currently estimated that the costs of the redistribution is going to be 1.5 TRILLION dollars (many are saying 2.5 TRILLION is closer to the truth). When that happens the REAL rape will occur. They have been trying, for years, to "do something' about Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security and this cost will be used to 'deal' with all of these (and more). Their reason will be that the debt is unsustainable and needs to be reduced. They have done this before and they will be doing it again. The only real difference is that, this time, we are dealing with trillions instead of the old billions.

So, basically, if you have any savings, and are elderly, your best course will be to move to either Canada or Mexico, both of which have universal healthcare. We are currently looking to move to Victoria, BC if this redistribution really starts to take place and before they can get into our stash. I am basing this on the simple fact that the Right has proven, with vigor, that their greed trumphs their integrity, honesty and doing the right thing. I also have faith that the left will be unable to get out the vote (I know, they did in Alabama). My problem is that the left has a large group of Bernie voters who were actually at least partially responsible for Trump (by voting for him) and I see no reason why I could expect these idiots to do anything in their own best interest, ie. there is no reason to have much faith in the voting public of the Left. When you throw in the simple fact that when 40% of the voting public votes, its thought of as a huge turnout my enthusiasm for the future tends to dim a bit more. I, basically, no longer feel that American voters have the capacity to act in their own best interest and are, as far as I can tell, sometimes even proud of that fact!

Just saying.................

Just a thought...............

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#304540 - 12/21/17 02:34 AM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
O.K.
And now for some perspective about those Bernie supporters who went for trump and how it was all their fault and we cant vote in our own best interest, etc...
WHo's argument has been born out by the historical results.

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#304541 - 12/21/17 02:37 AM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
And then there's the postmortem that Sanders wrested out of the DNC for his endorsement of Hillary:
Looking at the plane wreckage

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#304542 - 12/21/17 02:42 AM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Head for the hills JGW. It might be the wisest move. But for the rest get good and goddam mad! Get out there and fight like hell.
Or get the hell out of the way like Hillary wouldn't.

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#304543 - 12/21/17 03:04 AM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13201
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
O.K.
And now for some perspective about those Bernie supporters who went for trump and how it was all their fault and we cant vote in our own best interest, etc...
WHo's argument has been born out by the historical results.


PS: Chunkstyle, that was a malformed YouTube URL.
I think you were looking for this:




What Bernie SHOULD have done is do his 27 dollar crowdsourcing magic starting in 2009, right after he dropped all this "socialist" nonsense and JOINED the Democratic Party. That way, right around 2013 or 2014, he would have raised over two or three billion which could have been used to WIPE OUT all those corporate Republican Lite Dems, and he could have then run AS A DEMOCRAT for President in 2016 with the full support of the NEW Democratic Party.

Instead, he ran as an outsider, and mind you, I LOVED Bernie and voted for him in the primaries, but what on Earth did he expect from the party which viewed him as an outsider? They did what they were expected to do, protect the Democratic candidate!
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304545 - 12/21/17 03:53 AM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Thanks for fixing the link Jeff.
It's too bad the democrats couldn't get behind the candidate that best expressed what liberal progressives were. The very ones that gave us social security, Medicaid, etc that JGW is afraid will be taken away now.
Apparently all one has to do now is stick some banana sticker that reads 'democratic socialist' on someone and it's enough to throw a panic into some. I say screw labels and look at a history book. Why let your opponent decide who's Hanna sticker is valid?
I would suggest that Hillary got what she deserved and view that public postmortem as another gift to the party and it's base from Sanders.
The first gift was his challenging the entrenched bureaucracy and reminded us of what the party once was and what it has become.
If you can't address how the party can rat hole over a BILLION dollars with no over sight, starve state parties of funding, hire useless consultancies and KEEP them on retainer thru Obama's terms then how, HOW, are you going to course correct.
It's not going to be by blaming Sanders for the theft and incompetence.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/21/17 03:58 AM)

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#304546 - 12/21/17 04:02 AM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: chunkstyle]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40930
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

You go girl!!! smile , Bow
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#304547 - 12/21/17 04:03 AM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: chunkstyle]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40930
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
It's too bad the democrats couldn't get behind the candidate that best expressed what liberal progressives were.

Yup. Bow

Fvck this centerist, center-right, Corporate Democrat bullsh!t. smile

Hillary Clinton was a piss-poor candidate. mad
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#304768 - 01/01/18 10:28 PM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13201
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

Apparently all one has to do now is stick some banana sticker that reads 'democratic socialist' on someone and it's enough to throw a panic into some. I say screw labels and look at a history book. Why let your opponent decide who's Hanna sticker is valid?


But the fact is, everyone who has studied Bernie knows he's simply a New Deal FDR liberal Democrat, and has been for some time, for a very long time.
Couldn't he have just said that he was once a student of democratic socialism instead? It wouldn't make Bernie voters love him any less, and it would removed the radioactive tags.
I grant you everything when it comes to the evils of the current Democratic party leadership but when the basics boil out, however they did it, in basic terms they were still "protecting the Democratic Party candidate".
They could have done it more honestly, they could have done a better job of it and their candidate (Hillary) could have BEEN a better candidate.
I grant you everything, but even under the best conditions, given who the current top Democrats in control of the party are, they were still going to protect Hillary.
Had Bernie joined some years ago, the bare truth of it all, his popularity, would have forced them to tell Hillary it was not her time after all.
She might have opted to be Vice President, but Bernie would have been THE candidate, and he would have WON by a landslide.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304777 - 01/02/18 04:21 AM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6434
Loc: Highlands, Tx
apparently you have never heard Sen Cruz say Sen Sanders is a socialist or democratic socialist. for conservatives it means something other than what it really means.

i suspect it requires long term re-education but then in this modern political hyper-partisan atmosphere, I also suspect political platforms are in transition.

For Republicans they have been in transformation for a number of years, gradually moving from old style republicanism to modern nationalism/nativism/populism. The Democrats still dont know where they will end up.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#304778 - 01/02/18 04:30 AM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Jeff, you don't have to grant anything. There are many many people who vigoursly defend Clinton as a democrat, Bernie a commie, etc...
All just banana stickers to keep the divisions going. I've done the red team blue team thing myself.
Her and Bill are corporatists. More akin to moderate republicans of a coupla decades ago anyways. Pre Gingrich.
There are only vestiges of the left but that may change after this past election results. The current 'Democratic' party is losing registered party voters. Especially with the Yutes.
I personally welcome that hemmorage.
The party is corrupt and refuses to reform.
Some people know what time it is. Some don't, s'all I'm sayin.


Edited by chunkstyle (01/02/18 04:31 AM)

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#304779 - 01/02/18 04:49 AM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
Bernie did what every Third Party candidate always does: Siphon off enough votes to make the mainstream candidate most like them lose. Does not matter if it's on the Left or the Right. I think maybe once in the history of the US has a Third Party candidate actually won.

So that's apparently the function of Third Party candidates. To make their followers second choice candidate lose and make their least liked candidate win. Congratulations, Bernie! You did it. And now all your stupid followers get to live through the absolute disaster of a Trump Presidency instead of the minor annoyance of a Clinton Presidency.

And now the most pig-headed of them are trying to justify it by listing all Hillary's supposed faults. But her faults are minuscule compared to Trump's. Just the Supreme Court disaster alone should keep them wearing hair shirts for the next decade.

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#304782 - 01/02/18 05:17 AM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Sanders threw his support behind Clinton at the convention and hit the campaign trail for her PIA.
But don't let the historical record get in the way of a sense of devotion.
I would much rather be rid of the 'third way Democrats by having them split off and leave the party to repair itself. They're not going to leave their rackets they've made for themselves. That leaves a coupla options. Try and wrest the party back from them or start another party. That's not a happy circumstance and took decades to arrive at but here we are never the less.

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#304783 - 01/02/18 03:54 PM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Here's some food for thought....
An interesting parrallel on the left

How'd that go in the special elections:
A rising tide?

The 'third way' Boomer democrats have turned out to be nothing more than republican lite's. Ignoring wage disparity and serving their wealthy donor class, rigging primaries and lining their pockets with donation monies has created the situation were in today. One can only hope that the Millenials (a screwed generation and they know it) with the help of Gen X can undo the harm of the Boomers and their abandonment of the unions, working class and poor.
'Third way' Boomers are what got us in this mess.

Or maybe it was Bernie and the Russians....


Edited by chunkstyle (01/02/18 03:55 PM)

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#304784 - 01/02/18 04:54 PM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Online   content

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
We boomers certainly had a hand in this but the X-ers followed closely in their footsteps(Paul Ryan, Tom Cotton, et al). It remains to be seen whether Millenials, who are nearing their 40s, will remain progressive or turn more conservative. There's already a solid(and well deserved) distrust of government in place.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#304785 - 01/02/18 05:17 PM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Originally Posted By: Greger
We boomers certainly had a hand in this but the X-ers followed closely in their footsteps(Paul Ryan, Tom Cotton, et al). It remains to be seen whether Millenials, who are nearing their 40s, will remain progressive or turn more conservative. There's already a solid(and well deserved) distrust of government in place.


THe DNC is criminally negligent in it's building talent from the gen X's. The right has not been as sloppy. There are some on the moderate right though. Corey Booker, Tulso Gabbard, etc..

There is a wealth of info that would describe the differences between the demographics. Gen X falls in the middle of the spectrum between the Boomers and Millenials.
Pew research has a good trove of info on this. Some good reporting on it too, if your not stuck on MSNBC, FOX, etc...
THere's a risk of overgeneralizing an entire group of people filtered out by age but there are trends. I think it's real important to be watching trends and context.
It's been the Boomers who have held political power at the federal level for a couple of decades now (it's a numbers thing) with generation X having been mostly disenfranchised their entire adult political lives (Millenials will probably leap frog over Gen X'rs, again a numbers thing). It's not insignificant that Boomers have managed to reduce their tax burdens on themselves while receiving the greatest benefits of any generation. I don't think that's an accident. Do You?
Here they come!...


Edited by chunkstyle (01/02/18 05:19 PM)

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#304786 - 01/02/18 05:51 PM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13201
Loc: Whittier, California
The thing is, this New Left could help inform and empower a retooled Democratic Party.
Lord knows, what they HAVE been doing has not worked, Trump getting elected is proof of that.
The New Left might not get everything they want by taking over the Democratic Party but right now they are getting crushed under the Steamroller of the Deplorables.

So the question is, will Chapo and his millennial fans ever learn arithmetic?
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304787 - 01/02/18 06:46 PM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
The thing is, this New Left could help inform and empower a retooled Democratic Party.
Lord knows, what they HAVE been doing has not worked, Trump getting elected is proof of that.
The New Left might not get everything they want by taking over the Democratic Party but right now they are getting crushed under the Steamroller of the Deplorables.

So the question is, will Chapo and his millennial fans ever learn arithmetic?


I'm not sure I understand your point Jeff. Millennials and Gen X'rs were a larger voting block than Boomers and the Silent Generation for the first time. That spread is only going to grow in the coming decade.

One impression I have of the 2016 election is that the two bankrupt warring factions of the right wing are fighting over the corporate donations and kick backs. This has been a demographically Boomer fight for some time now.

Gen Xrs and Millenials may raise the left wing of the political spectrum from the dead. We'll see.

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#304789 - 01/02/18 07:52 PM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13201
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
The thing is, this New Left could help inform and empower a retooled Democratic Party.
Lord knows, what they HAVE been doing has not worked, Trump getting elected is proof of that.
The New Left might not get everything they want by taking over the Democratic Party but right now they are getting crushed under the Steamroller of the Deplorables.

So the question is, will Chapo and his millennial fans ever learn arithmetic?


I'm not sure I understand your point Jeff. Millennials and Gen X'rs were a larger voting block than Boomers and the Silent Generation for the first time. That spread is only going to grow in the coming decade.

One impression I have of the 2016 election is that the two bankrupt warring factions of the right wing are fighting over the corporate donations and kick backs. This has been a demographically Boomer fight for some time now.

Gen Xrs and Millenials may raise the left wing of the political spectrum from the dead. We'll see.


Millennial voter turnout in the 2016 election?
We're going to need to a WHOLE lot better than this:

_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

Top
#304793 - 01/02/18 08:37 PM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
The thing is, this New Left could help inform and empower a retooled Democratic Party.
Lord knows, what they HAVE been doing has not worked, Trump getting elected is proof of that.
The New Left might not get everything they want by taking over the Democratic Party but right now they are getting crushed under the Steamroller of the Deplorables.

So the question is, will Chapo and his millennial fans ever learn arithmetic?


I'm not sure I understand your point Jeff. Millennials and Gen X'rs were a larger voting block than Boomers and the Silent Generation for the first time. That spread is only going to grow in the coming decade.

One impression I have of the 2016 election is that the two bankrupt warring factions of the right wing are fighting over the corporate donations and kick backs. This has been a demographically Boomer fight for some time now.

Gen Xrs and Millenials may raise the left wing of the political spectrum from the dead. We'll see.


Millennial voter turnout in the 2016 election?
We're going to need to a WHOLE lot better than this:




It's a sad fact that Hillary did not garner excitement among the Yutes. Bernie did. Punch up "Sanders primary rally" google image search and scroll around. Try the same thing with Hillary Clinton. Spot any differences?

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#304794 - 01/02/18 09:28 PM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13201
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
The thing is, this New Left could help inform and empower a retooled Democratic Party.
Lord knows, what they HAVE been doing has not worked, Trump getting elected is proof of that.
The New Left might not get everything they want by taking over the Democratic Party but right now they are getting crushed under the Steamroller of the Deplorables.

So the question is, will Chapo and his millennial fans ever learn arithmetic?


I'm not sure I understand your point Jeff. Millennials and Gen X'rs were a larger voting block than Boomers and the Silent Generation for the first time. That spread is only going to grow in the coming decade.

One impression I have of the 2016 election is that the two bankrupt warring factions of the right wing are fighting over the corporate donations and kick backs. This has been a demographically Boomer fight for some time now.

Gen Xrs and Millenials may raise the left wing of the political spectrum from the dead. We'll see.


Millennial voter turnout in the 2016 election?
We're going to need to a WHOLE lot better than this:




It's a sad fact that Hillary did not garner excitement among the Yutes. Bernie did. Punch up "Sanders primary rally" google image search and scroll around. Try the same thing with Hillary Clinton. Spot any differences?


No argument there but let's both admit that even had the Democratic Party NOT engaged in questionable and even borderline illegal tactics, they STILL would have done what they did, which is
PROTECT THE OFFICIAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY CANDIDATE.

Bernie is the one who chose NOT to JOIN the party, sorry.
You cannot expect a political party to support you when you refuse to join it. And Bernie could have REMADE the entire party if he had joined, say perhaps in 2010 or 2012.

Hillary wouldn't have stood a ghost of a chance at being nominated, or even suggested.

And yet STILL...when Bernie told his supporters to back Hillary, I WAS a good soldier and trusted his advice, because I knew the alternative was Trump.
Too many, most in the millennial camp, did NOT do that, and they have now learned what arithmetic is all about.
Some of them are attempting to justify their stupid choices (Jill Stein, writing in Bernie anyway, REVENGE voting for Trump to PUNISH DEMS) but the majority are strangely silent.

We have ONE LAST CHANCE to correct this malaise, next November. We may not get another chance in a generation.

If Gen-X and the Millennials don't get over their little
"Good is the enemy of PERFECT" obsession, it's all over.

Enter authoritarian right wing theocratic FASCISM.
It will be a very long seventy years.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304802 - 01/03/18 01:40 AM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas


No argument there but let's both admit that even had the Democratic Party NOT engaged in questionable and even borderline illegal tactics, they STILL would have done what they did, which is
PROTECT THE OFFICIAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY CANDIDATE.

Bernie is the one who chose NOT to JOIN the party, sorry.
You cannot expect a political party to support you when you refuse to join it. And Bernie could have REMADE the entire party if he had joined, say perhaps in 2010 or 2012.

Hillary wouldn't have stood a ghost of a chance at being nominated, or even suggested.

And yet STILL...when Bernie told his supporters to back Hillary, I WAS a good soldier and trusted his advice, because I knew the alternative was Trump.
Too many, most in the millennial camp, did NOT do that, and they have now learned what arithmetic is all about.
Some of them are attempting to justify their stupid choices (Jill Stein, writing in Bernie anyway, REVENGE voting for Trump to PUNISH DEMS) but the majority are strangely silent.

We have ONE LAST CHANCE to correct this malaise, next November. We may not get another chance in a generation.

If Gen-X and the Millennials don't get over their little
"Good is the enemy of PERFECT" obsession, it's all over.

Enter authoritarian right wing theocratic FASCISM.
It will be a very long seventy years.


Ummmm....
I'm afraid you need to check your watch Jeff. It's uncomfortable to have to remind people that there was some serious rigging going on BEFORE Clinton was the official nominee. You were not only having it rigged against Sanders but against all the other candidates. A small detail but an important one. But whatever, this is old ground. Politics is a dirty game etc...
Then there's rules that are enforced on some candidates but waived for others. Those rules would be the campaign financing and sharing. But that would require an honest examination and we've got no time for that. We must rid ourselves of this GOP cabal, etc..
The strangest argument is the wayback machine argument. If only Sanders had joined the party then that would have created a set of circumstances that would have led to his being the presumptive nominee. I don't want to get into the temporal weeds with that one.
How is it Millenials fault that they lost the election for Hillary? I know several life long never trumpers that did not cast their vote for the Republican nominee. Were those numbers enough to cancel out the pouty Millenials? Dunno....
Finally, could it be possible that the Democratic nominee sucked and dragged the party down with her? Is that question even allowed yet? That maybe if she had played it like all the other Democratic candidates had to we would have gotten what we wanted and lower turnout wouldn't have played as big a role. Maybe?
No, we got the 'where ya gunna go?'. They wanted to run against Trump cause they thought they could win against such an unpalatable nominee.
You seem to want to look everywhere but at the party leadership and nominee that brought this disaster on.



Edited by chunkstyle (01/03/18 01:41 AM)

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#304805 - 01/03/18 01:57 AM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Sanders threw his support behind Clinton at the convention and hit the campaign trail for her PIA.


I know, and I'm not blaming Sanders for the result. I am blaming each and every one of you Sanders fans who failed to follow Sanders' endorsement and vote, or even work for Clinton. There were enough of you who didn't, to give us the abomination we have now. And all the excuses for not supporting Hillary show that loads of them fell for Republican and even Russian propaganda.

How's that hair shirt feeling?

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#304808 - 01/03/18 02:54 AM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
Sanders threw his support behind Clinton at the convention and hit the campaign trail for her PIA.


I know, and I'm not blaming Sanders for the result. I am blaming each and every one of you Sanders fans who failed to follow Sanders' endorsement and vote, or even work for Clinton. There were enough of you who didn't, to give us the abomination we have now. And all the excuses for not supporting Hillary show that loads of them fell for Republican and even Russian propaganda.

How's that hair shirt feeling?

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#304809 - 01/03/18 03:19 AM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
That's another ridiculous projection of a candidates failed campaign onto voters that wern't buying.
She was running a crooked campaign. She couldn't be bothered to visit key states that she assumed would go to her after losing them in the primaries to sanders. Etc, etc..
Again with the Russians?
You backed a candidate that could only win a primary by rigging it. Went on and ran a crap campaign to lose the general election. This has been widely covered by reputable sources but I don't think it would do any good posting any.
This thread started with JGW's concern over a massive redistribution of wealth that is happenning with the current government. I would argue that it has been a slow walk that has just recently become a run. That it was ushered in by reagen that boomers elected and has now climaxed as the boomers political power wanes.
This carping and scapegoating is just so much wishful thinking to retain the status quo.
I believe sanders said something about that during his announcement on his intent to run.
It's not been pleasant to admit to these realities, personally speaking, and I understand it might prove impossible for others.


Edited by chunkstyle (01/03/18 03:21 AM)

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#304811 - 01/03/18 04:15 AM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13201
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas


No argument there but let's both admit that even had the Democratic Party NOT engaged in questionable and even borderline illegal tactics, they STILL would have done what they did, which is
PROTECT THE OFFICIAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY CANDIDATE.

Bernie is the one who chose NOT to JOIN the party, sorry.
You cannot expect a political party to support you when you refuse to join it. And Bernie could have REMADE the entire party if he had joined, say perhaps in 2010 or 2012.

Hillary wouldn't have stood a ghost of a chance at being nominated, or even suggested.

And yet STILL...when Bernie told his supporters to back Hillary, I WAS a good soldier and trusted his advice, because I knew the alternative was Trump.
Too many, most in the millennial camp, did NOT do that, and they have now learned what arithmetic is all about.
Some of them are attempting to justify their stupid choices (Jill Stein, writing in Bernie anyway, REVENGE voting for Trump to PUNISH DEMS) but the majority are strangely silent.

We have ONE LAST CHANCE to correct this malaise, next November. We may not get another chance in a generation.

If Gen-X and the Millennials don't get over their little
"Good is the enemy of PERFECT" obsession, it's all over.

Enter authoritarian right wing theocratic FASCISM.
It will be a very long seventy years.


Ummmm....
I'm afraid you need to check your watch Jeff. It's uncomfortable to have to remind people that there was some serious rigging going on BEFORE Clinton was the official nominee. You were not only having it rigged against Sanders but against all the other candidates. A small detail but an important one. But whatever, this is old ground. Politics is a dirty game etc...
Then there's rules that are enforced on some candidates but waived for others. Those rules would be the campaign financing and sharing. But that would require an honest examination and we've got no time for that. We must rid ourselves of this GOP cabal, etc..
The strangest argument is the wayback machine argument. If only Sanders had joined the party then that would have created a set of circumstances that would have led to his being the presumptive nominee. I don't want to get into the temporal weeds with that one.
How is it Millenials fault that they lost the election for Hillary? I know several life long never trumpers that did not cast their vote for the Republican nominee. Were those numbers enough to cancel out the pouty Millenials? Dunno....
Finally, could it be possible that the Democratic nominee sucked and dragged the party down with her? Is that question even allowed yet? That maybe if she had played it like all the other Democratic candidates had to we would have gotten what we wanted and lower turnout wouldn't have played as big a role. Maybe?
No, we got the 'where ya gunna go?'. They wanted to run against Trump cause they thought they could win against such an unpalatable nominee.
You seem to want to look everywhere but at the party leadership and nominee that brought this disaster on.



No not true, I said "no argument there".
In fact, I've also said "I grant you EVERYTHING", not just to you but to several others who have posted similar thoughts.
That LEAVES ME WITH the "wayback machine" argument and your reluctance to think about it.

Why?

I have and HAD no doubts about Bernie's mojo even before he announced. And I have no doubt he could have almost singlehandedly crowdsourced the money needed to do a "Tea Party STYLE" ROUT on the Democratic leadership and that would have set the stage for everything else.
Now all we've done is kick the can down the road and we're STILL STUCK with the same moribund clowns that we had before in the DNC.
FACT: Unless we GET RID of those sad sacks of crap, there will be no winning on the Democratic side, and we have one last chance to do it.

So my "wayback machine" argument is the best damn argument there is, because it is the ONLY argument which is both "way back" AND PRESENT F****ING DAY,as in "right now", as in "we better damn well get about the business of doing exactly that if we want winning leadership for 2018 and 2020."
Just trotting out one more neoliberal Third Way appeasing ass hat isn't going to beat the GOP.

Joe Biden? Tim Kaine? Who is going to stump for the Dems this year and in 2020? Who is going to be announced as the presumptive nominee?
Are we going to haul out John Kerry again?
Fer Chrissakes, we need to do something drastic so that liberal voters everywhere can see that it's a new party, with a new vision.

So do not discount my wayback machine argument because it's not JUST about the past, it's also very much about the future.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304910 - 01/06/18 02:42 AM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13201
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
Sanders threw his support behind Clinton at the convention and hit the campaign trail for her PIA.


I know, and I'm not blaming Sanders for the result. I am blaming each and every one of you Sanders fans who failed to follow Sanders' endorsement and vote, or even work for Clinton. There were enough of you who didn't, to give us the abomination we have now. And all the excuses for not supporting Hillary show that loads of them fell for Republican and even Russian propaganda.

How's that hair shirt feeling?


I was a good soldier and followed Bernie's advice.
I wasn't thrilled about it, I was disappointed that Bernie hadn't pivoted and joined the party anyway but I was further disappointed, and angry, at the party. But I wasn't surprised, because they did what parties do, they protected their candidate. They went way too far, but the fact is, Bernie wasn't a Democrat and "she" was.

But I held my nose and pulled the D lever, because I was terrified at the R lever's outcome, which has been proven to be way worse than anything the tepid Hillary shill would ever pull.

It's simple electoral arithmetic, and we can't change the arithmetic unless we change the system that it is based upon.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304921 - 01/06/18 07:31 PM Re: the biggest redistribution of wealth [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I have said it before, instead of dealing with political parties voters have to decide what side the candidate is on. If, for instance, you are not right to life, but are liberal/progressive/, or even middle of the road then pick the candidate that is most closely aligned with you on the greatest number of items. I know, for instance, people who are flat against abortion, irregardless of anything else, so they vote on that issue and ignore all others. Several voted for Trump, for that reason, and they now have serious buyers remorse. The so called, liberals/progressives that voted for Trump are in the same boat. They didn't get their way so they voted in the lying jackass. That was, I think, a very real education, for many, that votes counts and tossing it because you are in a snit is not the best way to decide your voting decisions, especially given what the result of that is.

So, again, voters have to vote for them that agree most with their own system of beliefs and leave the single issues for another day. For me the issue is simple as Trump now has a track record and if a candidate is for entitlements, public schools, regulations to rein in the greedy, regulations to better the environment, a social net for the needy, etc. I would vote for that one. The other side, incidentally, believes in NONE of that stuff (which is, I think, pretty important that folks understand. I put that in as I am finding that many people don't understand, exactly, what the Republicans and the Right actually are against and they are making no bones about it. I also believe in political moderation rather than flying out in left field but that's just me.

Trump is, incidentally, incredibly good at a political shell game so its almost impossible to tell what he is going to do by relying on his mouth and twitters. Those are just obfuscations. The facts, however, do tell us just whatever he is going to do next is not gonna fill any liberal/progressive with any enthusiasm for the man. Currently the department of energy is looting the nation whilst destoying that agency, the department of education is doing all it can to destroy public education, the department of protection of the environment is doing all it can to destroy itself, any healthcare provided by gov is at serious risk, military spending is up by billions, the IRS is so short handed that they are actually collection less than 75% of what they should be, etc. I won't even go into the federal court system changes and there is much more than this stuff. I think, in other words, that its pretty simple to understand who one should vote for based on their own preferences instead of being in a snit.

The trick, of course, is how to get the American public to understand what is going on and getting off their collective butts to vote.



Edited by jgw (01/06/18 07:33 PM)

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