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#304557 - 12/21/17 08:53 PM Gut check
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 826
There's a lot of energy right now coming from the democratic base for sure. The challenge that I see is that the energy may get squandered by the poo bahs in the executive committees. For some reason there is an unwillingness to do a serious ground up critique and all we have coming from the party leaders is 'Bernie voters failed us by talking about real populist issues (HAH!)' or 'The Russians!......'
I've been a big fan of Thomas Frank for a while now. He seems to be from the grass roots progressive mold. Not at all like the professional pundit class. He has gone to where the election was lost and wrote about it well before the latest string of democratic defeats culminated in the 2016 election. I thought he did an exceptional job of 'What's wrong with Kansas'. His 'Listen Liberal' was an incisive follow on.
I'm hoping that the millenials take a lesson from him as well as other's. His unvarnished critique of the professional corporate democratic party is accurate and necessary if there is any hope of political gains and true economic, social progress for the future (a big if).
Thomas Frank


Edited by chunkstyle (12/21/17 08:57 PM)

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#304564 - 12/22/17 02:34 AM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13952
Loc: Florida
So the party is about to split between the good grassroots progressives who want to see immediate and major changes in the party and the bad old corporate Dems who sort of just want to keep doing what they've been doing and opposing the Republicans.
I guess it worked for the TEA Party.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#304567 - 12/22/17 03:56 AM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 826
How'd sticking with the corporate Dems (formerly known as moderate republicans) work out then?
The Democratic Party as it was historically known has been eviserated. The corporate substitute has lead to historic party losses. The corporate wing picked their champion and ran one of the worst campaigns in my memory.
They were effective in killing a revolutionary insurgent's (o.k., not revolutionary. More of a true progressive liberal democrat of the past but that is now recognized as revolutionary or insurgent by today's Democratic Party standards).
Massive wealth inequality, unwillingness to support single payer healthcare, historically high student debt, historically high incarceration rates. Massive losses in state houses across the country.
Have you ever considered that the clinton's and their camp are the insurgents that split the party? Taking the party down this 'third way' lane might have had a role in the present situation?




Edited by chunkstyle (12/22/17 03:59 AM)

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#304568 - 12/22/17 04:00 AM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 826
Progressives need to take their party back is all I'm sayin

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#304569 - 12/22/17 04:36 AM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13952
Loc: Florida
Quote:
a true progressive liberal democrat of the past

I'm having a hard time remembering when the Democratic Party was run by true progressive liberals like Bernie.

We'll see whether the hard left takes their party back from the moderates or just divides the voters into teams that will only vote for the liberal purists or the moderates. Democrats are pretty well known for staying home on election day already.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#304572 - 12/22/17 09:16 AM Re: Gut check [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7626
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
I'm having a hard time remembering when the Democratic Party was run by true progressive liberals like Bernie.


I think maybe never? I've been around since Eisenhower and I can't recall a real progressive President, in the sense we use that term today. Maybe FDR? But he was another rich guy who just did what he had to do to prevent another revolution. I think he was just pragmatic. By the time he got into office Hoover had tried all the usual conservative crappy ideas and they didn't work. FDR had to do something different, even if he was part of the East Coast elite.

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#304574 - 12/22/17 12:30 PM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15969
Jimmy Carter? Hello? JFK? LBJ? Is Barack Obama the most liberal president ever? WaPo (subscription). I question any list that doesn't list the proponents of New Deal and the Great Society.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304575 - 12/22/17 02:52 PM Re: Gut check [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 826
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Jimmy Carter? Hello? JFK? LBJ? Is Barack Obama the most liberal president ever? WaPo (subscription). I question any list that doesn't list the proponents of New Deal and the Great Society.


I would also suggest supporting working class families and organized labor?
I don't think Obama was liberal all that much. For me the banking crises was a clear indication of where he was going. Re-assert the status quo. Mild regulatory reform. Make the financial industry whole again while the families getting put out of their homes got sympathy. Another 'feel your pain' moment.
I recall the S&L debacle spawned a mass of resentment in the midwest and gave the militia movement a strong tailwind. I've always felt that the housing crises was going to do the same and I think we saw that play out IMHO. We first went with the guy who looked different and so, perhaps, will govern different. Meh..
2016 election was a real contest of who was going to bring real change to governance. Neoliberals killed off the option on their side of the aisle. The GOP suffered a hostile takeover.
The underlying stress, anger and despair is still with us. Probably going to get worse with the tax bill and getting rid of whats left of the safety net (old progressive achievements). Right to work got rid of collective bargaining, Corporate personhood has smothered public debate.
It seems obvious that he GOP is getting it's political fuel from a large part of the electorate that has been largely abandoned by the Ivy League corporate democrats. The Clintons and the Mandarins that they have surrounded themselves with have done a great deal to bring about this current situation. Co-opting the right while shedding it's left flank and labor.
If not now, when will be a good time for the Left and labor to reassert itself within the party? How far down the 'third way' road do we continue to go. Does Jeremy Corbyn's 'Our Revolution' style storming of the Labor party not offer any insight?

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#304577 - 12/22/17 04:13 PM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 826
Another annoying exhibit of the Clinton DNC collusion resulted in low voter turnout.

S'all Bernies fault!
"I think the voices that are saying "Unify! Unify! Unify!" are making money off the status quo, who have their vested interest in the status quo or have their identities attached to the status quo..."

Effin succint


Edited by chunkstyle (12/22/17 04:22 PM)

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#304579 - 12/22/17 05:50 PM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13952
Loc: Florida
Bernie's fault? Good heaven's no. Bernie supporters fault...? No again.
It was a well fought primary, Bernie was an upstart and did remarkably well under the circumstances. If a few things had been different he might even have won. But politics is a dirty dirty business.

If I were to blame anything in particular for the way this last election turned out it would be the media.

Unlike yourself, Chunky, I don't hate Hillary Clinton. I think she would have been an able and efficient administrator and that she would probably have been more liberal than president Obama. We might be seeing more environmental regulation, rising wages, and a tax package that actually benefited the working class and the poor. We'd be seeing fixes to to the ACA which might ultimately lead to single payer healthcare and we wouldn't be worrying about the CHIPS program, Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security being ignored, cut, and underfunded to pay for tax cuts for the wealthiest among us.

We'd have seen about the same thing under a Sanders administration.

And of course, please bear in mind that Hillary Clinton, despite everything you say about her crappy campaign and whatnot, won the popular vote by 3 million votes.

What the hard left seems to ignore in their(your) cry for rapid and dramatic change is that old adage..."Politics is the art of the possible."
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#304580 - 12/22/17 06:46 PM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 826
"And of course, please bear in mind that Hillary Clinton, despite everything you say about her crappy campaign and whatnot, won the popular vote by 3 million votes. "

Cold comfort Gregor. LOW VOTER TURNOUT.

She couldn't send a yard sign to Michigan. She represents whats wrong with the Party. They outspent Trump somewhere, though no one is sure where. More correct to say they out raised and suffered historic defeats up and down the ballots. That race was all and only about getting Hillary Rodham Clinton elected as president. Do we even know where all the money went yet?

Don't get me wrong, she was my state's senator and she kept our local VA open when they were consolidating them across the country. But the needles been moving into the red for far to many americans since her and her husbands 'Third Way' ideology saturated the Democratic parties management and ideology. There needs to be a reset here IMO.

What was possible was refused by collusion and corruption. That came straight out of Brooklyn.









Edited by chunkstyle (12/22/17 06:50 PM)

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#304586 - 12/22/17 10:31 PM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13952
Loc: Florida
Three. Million. VOTES.

Three Million more Democrats voted than Republicans. But they did it in the wrong places. That's what Democrats are up against. President Obama would have and could have done so much more if he hadn't been attacked on every front by blind hatred of anything verging on solutions from the left. Bernie or Hillary would have faced that same obstructionism.
Congressional Democrats have dealt with it for years. Gritting their teeth and veering to the right in order to stay in office. Even a slight misstep to the left and they get replaced by hard right Republican firebrands.

Quote:
There needs to be a reset here IMO.

On this we agree. Bernie showed us that it's possible to compete from the left. He even pushed Madam Clinton farther to the left than she ever thought she could go and win. Unfortunately she lost anyway, some might even say she lost because she moved too far to the left. I'd've liked to have seen Bernie take a clean win in the primaries and run head to head with Trump. It would have been a much more fun election. But I'm not convinced he would have won it...maybe, maybe not...anything about that is sheer speculation. After all, the polls showed a clear and easy win for Hillary. There was no reason for the DNC to change horses when their (pre)annointed candidate was running steadily ahead of Trump in the polls. Then came election night and a geographical anomaly put Trump into office instead of Hillary.

One of the saddest nights of my life. And trust me when I say that had it been Bernie instead if Hillary I would have been just as disappointed. The country seriously needs Democratic solutions.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#304815 - 01/03/18 06:24 AM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13163
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Progressives need to take their party back is all I'm sayin


TOTAL AGREEMENT.
If Bernie wants to practice his mojo for Brand New Congress, he can do a world of good by exercising his crowdsourcing muscle, which is considerable, to raise funds to tear out the moldy muckety mucks and retool the party back to its liberal roots.
If we do this in time, the 2018 wins will like nothing this country has ever seen in decades, and Republicans will be finished, at least the kind we see today.
They would be obliterated.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304868 - 01/04/18 08:32 PM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15969
I've made my resolution for 2018. I'm putting my body where my mind is. If I have to travel to do it, I will. Washington is already Dem country (mostly). Progress needs to be pushed to the center of the country, and its rural parts.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304869 - 01/04/18 08:42 PM Re: Gut check [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15969
I'm getting bumper stickers made: "Ask me why I'm a Democrat."
Here's the start of an answer: I'm a Democrat because I believe in bettering America by bettering every person who lives in America. The Reason Why I'm A Democrat And Never Looking Back. The Odyssey online. The funny thing is, I've not been a Democrat until now. I've been happily independent. Bernie made me rethink my position.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304882 - 01/05/18 02:27 AM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 826
How did Sanders campaign have you rethinking your 'independant' position NWP? I've been an independants this far along but like most things these days, I have begun to question it's effectiveness.

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#304883 - 01/05/18 03:33 AM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13163
Loc: Whittier, California
I can't speak for NWP but for me it was the cruel arithmetic of US presidential electoral politics. At the White House level, it's a football game, two teams, one wins and one loses.
That is never ever going to change unless we switch to a parliamentary system with a coalition style party layout.

What CAN and DOES change is the direction the two parties take, and their agenda. It is way past time to remake the Democratic Party again.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304884 - 01/05/18 03:59 AM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 826
No doubt Jeff, no doubt. Lots of heavy lifting for 2018. Lots done in 2017. This fight seems to be about Democracy vs. Corporate Fuedalism. We're deep in innings and down in runs. A good friend told me baseball is all about redemption. I hope there is still time to redeem democracy and public space.
Some green shoots

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#304885 - 01/05/18 04:39 AM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13163
Loc: Whittier, California
Excellent article, chunkster, gives me mountains of hope!
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304888 - 01/05/18 06:22 AM Re: Gut check [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3808
Loc: Eugene, OR
Quote:
gives me mountains of hope!


Thatís boo chit Jeff and you know it. The robots are coming (they are here actually) and they are just beginning their ascent. All of the low level, low skilled jobs will be replaced faster than one can say ďno--- they wonít replace meĒ.

There will be jobs available for some but they will require lots of technical skills and subsequent learning. A robot servicing mechanic comes to mind. And by this I mean a human--not a self learning robot.

Those who donít learn those skills high tech might survive. And hang on by the skin of their teeth in a subsistence world. But that will only be by their wits and tenaciousness in an ever more technological world that will indeed leave many (if not most) behind.

Of course subsistence living is always an option.
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#304892 - 01/05/18 04:07 PM Re: Gut check [Re: Ken Condon]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 826
Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
Quote:
gives me mountains of hope!


Thatís boo chit Jeff and you know it. The robots are coming (they are here actually) and they are just beginning their ascent. All of the low level, low skilled jobs will be replaced faster than one can say ďno--- they wonít replace meĒ.

There will be jobs available for some but they will require lots of technical skills and subsequent learning. A robot servicing mechanic comes to mind. And by this I mean a human--not a self learning robot.

Those who donít learn those skills high tech might survive. And hang on by the skin of their teeth in a subsistence world. But that will only be by their wits and tenaciousness in an ever more technological world that will indeed leave many (if not most) behind.

Of course subsistence living is always an option.


?!
Wassup Ken? You gettin yer prepper on?
I'm not altogether convinced that the rise of automation will lead to the obsolesence of humans. The bank teller/ATM scenario comes to mind. Their is seldom discussion of opportunities that come from automation, as the banking industry realized. There will most likely be disruptions for sure. These will be challenges that will have to be solved. Democratically if possible or a dystopian, as yet to be realized, reality foisted on us. The next few years will be crucial to determine the direction IMHO.
All the more reason to get yer boots on and get out there working. I, for one, am over the 'third way' democrats who take corporate money and settle for a little less democracy.


Edited by chunkstyle (01/05/18 04:11 PM)

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#304906 - 01/05/18 10:09 PM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15969
As Bennie Sanders learned and demonstrated, you can't change the system if you're not in it. If I want the Democratic party to change, I have to be in it. I want it to change. I want the Republican party to change, too, but I can't be associated with that monster.

I've been in politics long enough to know no meaningful third party will come to exist. It hasn't happened since the Republicans were created, and a lot has been done to solidify the control of the two-party system. Primaries were supposed to wrest control from the parties... That didn't work. Bull Moose party didn't work. Nader, Stein, and Ross Perot only acted as spoilers. George Wallace and John Anderson didn't change the outcome. I want to change the outcome.

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#304907 - 01/05/18 10:36 PM Re: Gut check [Re: Ken Condon]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13163
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
Quote:
gives me mountains of hope!


Thatís boo chit Jeff and you know it. The robots are coming (they are here actually) and they are just beginning their ascent. All of the low level, low skilled jobs will be replaced faster than one can say ďno--- they wonít replace meĒ.

There will be jobs available for some but they will require lots of technical skills and subsequent learning. A robot servicing mechanic comes to mind. And by this I mean a human--not a self learning robot.

Those who donít learn those skills high tech might survive. And hang on by the skin of their teeth in a subsistence world. But that will only be by their wits and tenaciousness in an ever more technological world that will indeed leave many (if not most) behind.

Of course subsistence living is always an option.


But I never even referred to any of that.
I am only addressing the need to change the fundamentals of a major party, and given that we all witnessed that exact thing happen back in 2010 on the GOP side, we know the formula, and we know it can work.
I cannot predict what automation will do to our lives, Ken.
Neither can any political party.
But I do know that the GOP will never support single payer health care and the Democratic Party might, if we put enough of the right people in there, and sweep Congress.

What we can do to deal with the automation issue is much more likely to happen under a liberal administration.

We need that to happen now...sooner than now in fact.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304908 - 01/05/18 10:39 PM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3808
Loc: Eugene, OR
Quote:
Wassup Ken? You gettin yer prepper on?

Just saying it as I see it. Of course I could be wrong...but me??!!

Iím not saying everyone will be replaced by robotics and automation but I do believe that many lower skilled repetitive jobs will be replaced by such and this even will extend into higher skilled jobs such as accountants, lawyers, even doctors. Surgeons are already assisted by computer robotics.

Although I eagerly await the super computer that will create laws that actually work the best for the most. And benefit society as a whole. I have given up on todays politicians although I still manage a sliver of hope for some Democrats..

I have a hard time visualizing what jobs could not be replaced by technology in the not too distant future. I hope Iím wrong. But you know what is ďfunnyĒ?

I just got back from a local meeting on recycling in our county (Lane) discussing current events in that field. What with China throwing up red flags etc and asking Americans to cease and desist with the soiled diapers and partially full food cans etc. One of the speakers who works in recycling said they cannot find enough welders to fill positions they need filling. And that job starts at $20.00/hr. with full benefits.

What happened to vocational training in our schools these days?
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#304917 - 01/06/18 05:35 PM Re: Gut check [Re: Ken Condon]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 302
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
[quote]What happened to vocational training in our schools these days?



Computers and programming classes...
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#304919 - 01/06/18 06:56 PM Re: Gut check [Re: Ken Condon]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8802
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
What happened to vocational training in our schools these days?

I don't think there is a lot of interest in careers that involve physical work and skills anymore.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#304922 - 01/06/18 07:44 PM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7626
Loc: North San Diego County
Meanwhile kids who go into air conditioner repair or plumbing are making a very good living. Neither will be automated anytime soon. Probably not withing the working lifetime of an 18 year old.

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#305244 - 01/23/18 01:47 AM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 826
Looking at the 'fresh eyes' on the current political and economic zeitgeist, I've found a good bit of fresh insight apart from our grotty and soiled political perspectives. As these kids are going to be a commanding political force in the future it seems prudent to hear what they are saying. I've found a lot of their 'no bullshit' perspectives on the current political and economic system refreshing. They have more to lose propping up a bankrupt order. One of the best podcasts out there for me has been Chapo Trap House. The episode with Adam Curtis was full on truth bombing:
INCOMING!!!


Edited by chunkstyle (01/23/18 01:48 AM)

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