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#304684 - 12/28/17 04:06 AM So-whatism
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15969
My wife sometimes brings me things she wants to start a thread on, but she doesn't come on to join the discussion directly. This morning she expressed her concern about a growing tendency, and tendentiousness, of partisans - and others, expressing "so-whatism". This is akin to other discussions we've had, but is, in some ways more specific. Her concern is specific to the corrosive effect of excusing particular behaviors by partisans of a particular side - not just Republicans.

I think that as a community, we here at the Rant express some pretty strong values. But, in the age of Trump and Roy Moore particularly, there is a growing tendency to acknowledge behavior that is "contrary to expressed values" - and then dismiss it, since it comes from "our side." That was somewhat true of Bill Clinton's peccadilloes, and is especially true in the current environment. We've all acknowledged it. But she was looking at the long term effects of that tendency. If we get in the habit of excusing behavior, haven't we just set a new standard. In the Army I often told officers and enlisted Soldiers that every time they walked by something they saw as "wrong" - they just set a new standard. Acknowledgement and enforcement of standards is what makes every organization unique. It is what establishes a "organizational culture."

Trump's "New Normal" is anything but, and yet nearly half the electorate has explicitly excused it because they get what they want out of it: a shiny new Tax Cut, a judicial appointment, an ideologically-aligned cabinet appointment. Earlier I started a thread about the "worst case scenario." I railed about the abysmally poor selections for cabinet and judicial positions, and the willingness of the Senate to approve them anyway. This is an offshoot of that point. The larger question, I think, is what does that make us all? Have we not now demonstrated that, and are we now just dickering over the "price"?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304688 - 12/28/17 08:40 AM Re: So-whatism [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7626
Loc: North San Diego County
So what do we do about it? It's not like we should start throwing Molotov cocktails into Congressmen's offices, though I think that would about the only thing that would get their attention. I think the only thing a law-abiding person can do is to donate heavily to Democratic congressional candidates and work for the Party to get out the vote. Issa won last election by just 1621 votes and Duncan Hunter may be indicted for personal use of campaign funds. Both of these seats could be flipped.

How about a Million Man March on Washington that confronts Republican Congressmen who refuse to do their duty?

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#304694 - 12/29/17 02:07 AM Re: So-whatism [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13163
Loc: Whittier, California
Your wife sounds a bit like my wife, except the only reason my wife doesn't jump in is because her typing is so abysmal, and she hasn't invested the time to get good at using Dragon, Naturally Speaking yet.

But, both you and I should HUG our wives because, at least for me, MY wife has undergone a radical change in the last four years. She went from "don't bother me with politics, I have enough on my plate" to "WTF is happening, what do we do about this, what is this about?" to
"Talk to me about these issues, you're always on those forums, what do you talk about?"

In other words, Karen is FULLY AWAKE NOW, and she's PISSED, which is healthy.
Pissed she might be, but she is channeling it the right way, and it's motivating her.
I expect she will start using Dragon Naturally Speaking pretty soon, because she has been asking A LOT of questions about these forums I belong to.

Can't say she will definitely join here, but maybe somewhere.
She's reaching critical mass, and it's a good thing.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304703 - 12/29/17 05:23 AM Re: So-whatism [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7626
Loc: North San Diego County
My wife is fully aware and surfs all her own websites several hours per day. But she is adamant about anonymity: Won't go on facebook, doesn't ever want her photo posted, won't post anywhere, won't even take a DNA test to check out her ancestry!

She's convinced it's best to go unnoticed until you are safely dead, but she says she is going to protests if Mueller gets fired.

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#304704 - 12/29/17 05:36 AM Re: So-whatism [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13163
Loc: Whittier, California
Karen doesn't post much except a few one-liners now and then on Facebook, but she READS EVERYTHING, and it makes for a lot of interesting follow-up convos.
She also occasionally looks over my shoulder if there is an interesting thread here, because I sometimes try to get friends interested by sharing the threads once in a while.

Early on she got alienated by the poor content quality at places like Topix, which are frequently a haven for trolls, which is why she's never really joined any forums.
She likes the fact that this place is more like a close knit family of friends.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304737 - 12/31/17 05:01 AM Re: So-whatism [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13952
Loc: Florida
I don't have a wife.

But if I did, and if she asked, I'd tell her that we all are merely human and prone to doing stupid things, particularly the men among us, because we are all guilty of something..

You can't eliminate everybody who's ever made a few mistakes in their lives. Even that Roy Moore character...he hit on some young girls when he was in his 30s. Near as I can tell he straightened up his act and there haven't been any other complaints in the last 30 some years.

Politics is a sleazy business. Not unlike the auto sales industry in some respects. Not just anybody can sell cars, not just anybody can be a politician. If you go searching for the perfect candidate you'll be doomed like Diogenes never to find an honest man.

This digital age has made it easier than ever before to dig up dirt on people. Pretty much everything you've ever said or done has been recorded or witnessed by someone and it's all out there on the internet somewhere.

I'm not defending the dirtbags, I'm just saying most people have been dirtbags sometime in their lives.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#304739 - 12/31/17 05:07 AM Re: So-whatism [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40893
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


Wives...? What are those? coffee , smile
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#304743 - 12/31/17 12:47 PM Re: So-whatism [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7626
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Near as I can tell he straightened up his act


Not really. He met his future wife when she was 16 and then just kept his eye on her and finally married her at 24. She was 14 years his junior so in a way he just got tired of chasing 16 year olds and waited for "the one" to ripen!

And Rick: We're all rooting for you. You'll have a spouse someday. Why should us straight guys have to suffer alone?

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#304744 - 12/31/17 02:20 PM Re: So-whatism [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40893
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
And Rick: We're all rooting for you. You'll have a spouse someday. Why should us straight guys have to suffer alone?

Why suffer alone, indeed! smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#304745 - 12/31/17 04:09 PM Re: So-whatism [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13952
Loc: Florida
Quote:
He met his future wife when she was 16 and then just kept his eye on her and finally married her at 24. She was 14 years his junior so in a way he just got tired of chasing 16 year olds and waited for "the one" to ripen!


That's pretty much the definition of "straightening up his act".
Some never change their ways...Anthony Weiner comes to mind. There are a lot of things that bother me more about Roy Moore than his preference for younger women so I was pretty happy when those allegations destroyed his chances of becoming Senator Moore.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#304752 - 12/31/17 08:49 PM Re: So-whatism [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13163
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
He met his future wife when she was 16 and then just kept his eye on her and finally married her at 24. She was 14 years his junior so in a way he just got tired of chasing 16 year olds and waited for "the one" to ripen!


That's pretty much the definition of "straightening up his act".
Some never change their ways...Anthony Weiner comes to mind. There are a lot of things that bother me more about Roy Moore than his preference for younger women so I was pretty happy when those allegations destroyed his chances of becoming Senator Moore.


I am guilty of bird-dogging "the young stuff".
I first started chasing Karen when she was 17 and I was 28.
A couple of key differences, however:

She had just signed up to join the Navy. I was unaware of this until our third date, when chemistry started setting fire to everything in a ten mile radius. But the fact remains, a 17 year old who has signed up to join the Navy is an emancipated 17 year old.

Secondly, I never had two Alabama State Troopers assigned exclusively to me for the purposes of keeping me from bird dogging all the young things wandering in a shopping mall where I had already been officially 86-ed anyway.

Third, I didn't commit any unwanted or unsolicited sexual assaults.
I was just madly in love, and when it was clear it wasn't meant to be, I went my own way, until I found out that my former 17-year old had now divorced herself from her first marriage and was maybe available once again.
I gulped and mustered up the "twenty seconds of raw courage" it took to let her know she was still the one, and by sheer dumb luck, my ploy worked, and we rediscovered each other once again almost a decade and a half later.

It wasn't that Karen was seventeen, it was just something about her that clicked in my head. She could have been thirty-four and it would have been the same reaction, because Lord knows, the lady I wound up marrying the first time around was ten years MY senior!
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304753 - 12/31/17 10:32 PM Re: So-whatism [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7626
Loc: North San Diego County
Falling in love is one thing, cruising the mall for tight teen crease is another. Your story is romantic. His is creepy. And you never took a 14 year old someplace out of the way so you could molest her.

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#304760 - 01/01/18 05:16 AM Re: So-whatism [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13163
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Falling in love is one thing, cruising the mall for tight teen crease is another. Your story is romantic. His is creepy. And you never took a 14 year old someplace out of the way so you could molest her.



Do the first time fumblings of a fifteen year old and a fourteen year old while her Mom was at work count?
NOTE: It was a complete and total disaster, heh.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304818 - 01/03/18 11:38 AM Re: So-whatism [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7626
Loc: North San Diego County
That's just "being a human teenager". Our hormones all demand we go for it from age 13 on. Simple physiology, no romance required.

Personally, I think states that have a "Romeo and Juliet" near-age exception to their Age of Consent laws get it right. It's silly to send young people to prison and label them sex offenders for life for doing exactly what God is demanding.

It's quite like sending homosexuals to prison for being gay. Which NEVER made any sense to me!
"This guy is gay, so we're sending to a place full of horny men some of whom will have sex with anyone or anything. That will stop him!"

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#304821 - 01/03/18 03:55 PM Re: So-whatism [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 302
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
In general, Religious/Evangelical/hard right Conservative logic is an oxymoron, in-addition to having no basis in reality.
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#304837 - 01/04/18 02:25 AM Re: So-whatism [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7626
Loc: North San Diego County
In the latest "so what" counterattack, Paul Manafort has filed suit against Meuller for going outside his scope of Russia-Trump, to investigate Manafort's many crimes.

Pretty much every other lawyer in the world is congratulating his lawyers on convicing him to spend money on ridiculous lawyering.

"When the facts are not working, go for the law. When the law is not working, go for the facts. When neither is working, pound the table." Paul has found a fourth option!

"I know, let's put on a show!"
Mickey Rooney

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#304863 - 01/04/18 08:16 PM Re: So-whatism [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15969
I love this suit for a number of reasons. It will go nowhere, but the best result would be the district court actually ruling against him on the merits (it won't). Imagine a binding ruling that expands Mueller authority....


Okay, really, it'll be dismissed as non-justiciable. Sigh. A meaningless exercise, except to get Trump's lawyers involved.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#304873 - 01/04/18 09:50 PM Re: So-whatism [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7626
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
It will go nowhere


But first, some lovely Busby Berkeley song and dance numbers!

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