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#304751 - 12/31/17 08:48 PM America's Gun Fantasy
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
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Good article:
America's gun fantasy

Maybe the number of guns you own should determine if you need psychiatric intervention. One long rifle, one shotgun, and one handgun: No interview. Any more than that and you have to go for counseling.

Also maybe we need to make some movies and video games that are accurate: You take up arms against the US Government and are always dead within minutes or hours.

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#304758 - 01/01/18 04:01 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Online   content
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Registered: 09/09/11
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I can understand owning a number of guns. (Although, I think that doesn't work in most instances, though.) A friend of mine owns a dozen guns, but here's the breakdown: a big frame .40 pistol he carries hunting, and a small-frame .380 for his wife, and a third "concealed carry" pistol as well. He has a 12-gauge shotgun, a 410 shotgun, a scoped .308 for hunting, a .243 "varmint gun," a .22 for his son, a .243 for his wife for hunting, a .223 assault rifle he got in trade (it was a bad trade), a .378 "elephant gun" he got as a present (it's a show piece, but he'll never use it - his wife had no idea how powerful a gun it was), and another scoped hunting rifle, I don't remember the caliber, but I think a .270. Under the circumstances, I don't think that's excessive, although it is a lot.

Personally, I would not go beyond 3-4 guns. One for carry, if I needed it; a survival rifle, maybe a .22 pistol to save on ammo and pair with the survival rifle, and maybe a shotgun (I used to have a 410 shotgun). I used to have a 9 mm and a .22 rifle (bolt action), but both are long gone.
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#304764 - 01/01/18 08:39 PM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6403
Loc: Highlands, Tx
OK you guys are way too funny ... odd ... peculiar ...

I think I have mentioned a buddy of mine who was a gun collector and even had a working tank. I also have acquaintances who have high end military weapons (they get a kick out of of shooting them (especially at night .... man, the flames).

I possess no firearms of any kind. A survival rifle ... did I miss the start of a dystopian America and now have to enter the conservative Darwinian deathmatch?

I have nothing against responsible people having a state given privilege to own guns, but does that privilege extend to the paranoid, or people prone to violence, or any person who demonstrates with a proven history of personal instability.
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#304765 - 01/01/18 10:04 PM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: rporter314]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13939
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I have nothing against responsible people having a state given privilege to own guns, but does that privilege extend to the paranoid, or people prone to violence, or any person who demonstrates with a proven history of personal instability.


Ayup. That's pretty much where I stand. To me there's a major difference between collecting guns as a hobby and amassing weapons and ammo to satisfy some paranoid fantasy that you might one day need them.

It's a rare man indeed who will ever actually need a firearm to protect himself.
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"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#304766 - 01/01/18 10:15 PM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13939
Loc: Florida
Quote:
we need to make some movies and video games that are accurate: You take up arms against the US Government and are always dead within minutes or hours.


One game comes to mind...Assassin's Creed 2&3 I think. If you are in an area where there are official "guards", no matter how badass you think you are, if you loot or steal something the guards will beat you up and take half of your money.
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#304770 - 01/02/18 12:40 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Online   content
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To clarify: a Survival Rifle (in my case, I like the AR-7) is a small caliber rifle for carrying into the wilderness. It's not for dystopian fantasy, but in case something happens and one needs to hunt small game for survival. Given some of the places I've found myself, having a portable but effective weapon in the back country makes sense. It's the same reason I carry a knife, a compass, and a flint.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304771 - 01/02/18 12:56 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13119
Loc: Whittier, California

[/quote]

That is a pretty nifty piece, I think I'd like one of those!
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#304772 - 01/02/18 01:20 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
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Loc: North San Diego County
It would be nice to have that when backpacking in remote areas. It you got lost or hurt yourself, you could hunt rabbits to eat and probably signal searchers. I'm not doing such backpacking anymore so the only firearm I need is a little single-shot shotgun for killing rattlesnakes I can't reach with a rake and shovel. Never had to use it yet. The snakes are pretty accommodating.

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#304773 - 01/02/18 01:33 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7564
Loc: North San Diego County
There may be better ways now to find the dangerous nut-jobs. I was just reading about a crazy conspiracy theorist woman who posted accusations of Chrissy Teigen and her husband being Hollywood pedophiles. This is another of those people who think everything is connected and meaningful. The really bad part is she is on twitter and has 50000 followers! Teigen is going to sue her.

We used to put these folks in State Hospitals. Now they just run around loose and cause all sorts of havoc with internet accounts sending their followers off to shoot up pizza places and such. Or as in the story above, they really believe the gubmint is going to come for their guns and it's their patriotic duty to fight.

Maybe it's time we actually did something about mental health on a grand scale. Figure out who is delusional and force them to take meds at least. Of course that might be a disaster for Republicans and the NRA. But it would be a real improvement for the lives of these poor frightened victims. I guess gun manufacturers would be mighty pissed, too.

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#304774 - 01/02/18 02:48 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13939
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Figure out who is delusional and force them to take meds at least.

That's kind of pushing the envelope of government power...and a mighty slippery slope that invites abuse of power at every level.
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#304775 - 01/02/18 03:28 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Online   content
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15953
It would certainly quiet the halls of Congress....
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304776 - 01/02/18 04:13 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: Greger]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6403
Loc: Highlands, Tx
the basis [for their world view] of many conservative elected officials is paranoia. Listen to Rep Jim Johnson for an iconic example of paranoid delusions and the results.

I have advocated for many years these folks need to be on meds. That does no mean I want them to agree with me, but rather that they believe something based on rational thought.
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#304780 - 01/02/18 05:05 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7564
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
That's kind of pushing the envelope of government power

No, we actually used to do it. Remember "the men in white coats will come for you" when somebody was acting crazy? Then the ultra-liberals closed down all the state mental hospitals because they planned to replace them with community outpatient clinics. We could do that because of the new psychiatric drugs that made lobotomies and straight jackets obsolete. Then of course EVERYBODY forgot to fund those clinics, and all the loonies are walking around loose living homeless and crapping on the sidewalks. (Or in this case tweeting dangerous BS to 50000 followers.)

It finally happened in Southern California: The Hepatitis A problem from all that poop everywhere got so bad sterilizing the sidewalks was no longer working. Now we all need Hep A vaccinations.

Respecting the loonies freedom is not a suicide pact. The obvious solution is to follow through and build the damned clinics, and use the same level of coercion used in the old state hospitals to keep the people who need it treated. We know if you don't use that minimal level of force that some people will decide not to take their meds. They are crazy, after all. Some of them are going to like being crazy, but we don't have to live with that.

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#304795 - 01/02/18 10:08 PM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15953
In terms of facts driving decisions, this is probably the most pertinent part of that article:
Quote:
Only 15 percent of us now say we ever hunt, less than half as many as in the 1970s. In any given year, maybe a third of those hunters among us, 5 percent of Americans, actually slog through fields and forests with rifles and shotguns.

In fact, fewer of us now own any kind of gun for any reason—even as the number of guns has increased phenomenally. In the 1970s about half of Americans had a gun, and it was almost always just a gun, one on average. Today only about a quarter of Americans own guns—but the average owner has three or four. Fewer than 8 million people, only 3 percent of all American adults, own roughly half the guns. Members of that tiny minority of superenthusiasts own an average of 17 guns apiece.
As I have often stated, I believe that there is an inherent right to own firearms, although not under the 2nd Amendment. That right, like all rights, is subject to reasonable restrictions. Our current restrictions are not reasonable - they are insufficient.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304798 - 01/02/18 10:42 PM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13119
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
That's kind of pushing the envelope of government power

No, we actually used to do it. Remember "the men in white coats will come for you" when somebody was acting crazy? Then the ultra-liberals closed down all the state mental hospitals because they planned to replace them with community outpatient clinics.


Uhhhmmm, didn't Ronald Reagan shut down most of the state mental hospitals?
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
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#304799 - 01/03/18 12:13 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6403
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
there is an inherent right to own firearms

I reject that notion.

I consider a right to be inherent or inalienable only if that right existed at the moment of the inception of the pneuma. Since guns have only existed in modern times, there can be no inalienable or inherent "right" associated with guns. Thus there can be only one inherent or inalienable right; the primeval right of
the biological imperative to survive.

However, States may bestow "rights" through number of means and then guarantee those rights. Such is the case of guns in America. The Founders bestowed a partial, guaranteed right to own guns which could be revoked under proper Constitutional remedies. In fact the Founders wrote a list of properties which they believed identified and explained what it means to be a sovereign person. Note that every "right" bestowed by the created government is universal, i that every person has the right regardless of any personal property consideration.

Obviously any "right" given by the State can also be abrogated. It is therefore incumbent on citizens to ensure guarantees are in place to preserve those "rights".

hmmm ... a segue in the Trump era ... are we in danger of losing some of our fundamental rights? The Trump administration would preserve the 2nd, but would they preserve the 1st? If I had lived in Germany in 1933 would I have seen the same type of rhetoric from the new Chancellor as we hear from Mr Trump?
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#304800 - 01/03/18 01:34 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: rporter314]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15953
Let me explain my view of rights. I agree that the "rights" we enjoy are only those that are "guaranteed" by the governments we have. In that sense, I do think that Trump is an actual threat to those right in that he has no idea how the government works, or what's in the Constitution. But, the structure of the Constitution is such that we have that bundle of rights that are not prohibited by it. This is explicit in the 9th Amendment. These rights are not unlimited, but they exist with a presumption of legitimacy and can only be restricted when the government is exercising a specific authority, and has a rational basis for the restriction.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304801 - 01/03/18 01:37 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3801
Loc: Eugene, OR
Quote:
Uhhhmmm, didn't Ronald Reagan shut down most of the state mental hospitals?


Nope. Or at least it was not entirely in Reagan’s lap. It was more about this:

Quote:
O'Connor v. Donaldson, 422 U.S. 563 (1975), was a landmark decision in mental health law. The United States Supreme Court ruled that a state cannot constitutionally confine a non-dangerous individual who is capable of surviving safely in freedom by themselves or with the help of willing and responsible family members or friends. Since the trial court jury found, upon ample evidence, that petitioner did so confine respondent, the Supreme Court upheld the trial court’s conclusion that petitioner had violated respondent's right to liberty.[1][2][3][quote]


Linque: Wikipedia
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#304803 - 01/03/18 01:42 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: Ken Condon]
Ken Condon Offline
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Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3801
Loc: Eugene, OR
And this decision has helped to exacerbate the numbers of homeless we are all witnessing today.

But.. If I knew the way, I would take you home....
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#304804 - 01/03/18 01:44 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7564
Loc: North San Diego County
High explosives were invented at some point and the state has decided you have to have training, a license, and a legitimate need to possess pounds of high explosives. Same thing with fully automatic weapons. There are loads of things the state has decided need restrictions. All quite reasonable. Some Libertarians may huff and puff about inalienable rights, but most everybody considers them insane.

So the state decides what we may and may not own, which is the right we collectively grant them as citizens. If you don't like that, renounce your citizenship and move. Good luck finding a reasonable country to live in that lets you own whatever you want. Most of the places that will are Third World shite-holes where some bigger stronger bastard will kill you for those guns, explosives, etc.

Despite the 2nd Amendment, there is no inalienable right to own anything if the state decides we are better off without it. The 2nd Amendment requirements could be met by a locked armory in each state, only accessible by the states's National Guard. If you join The Guard, they will store a gun in there with your name on it!

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#304807 - 01/03/18 02:17 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
Ken Condon Offline
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Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3801
Loc: Eugene, OR
Since “Originalists” keep attempting to transport themselves back into the brains and discern “correct” thought patterns of our founders who assembled those documents, (and then divine the absolute truth as to what was their intent), I continue to wonder what they would make of modern day armaments that are freely and easily available to the US general public.

“Being necessary to the security of a free State......shall not be infringed.”

I know this has been discussed endlessly here before, but it never ceases to amaze and befuddle me. I am sure that if somehow Antonin G. Scalia could be revived for a few hours he would be able to shed a clear and absolute light upon my query:

Did they have repeating muskets back then?
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#304812 - 01/03/18 04:38 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: Ken Condon]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13119
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
Quote:
Uhhhmmm, didn't Ronald Reagan shut down most of the state mental hospitals?


Nope. Or at least it was not entirely in Reagan’s lap. It was more about this:

Quote:
O'Connor v. Donaldson, 422 U.S. 563 (1975), was a landmark decision in mental health law. The United States Supreme Court ruled that a state cannot constitutionally confine a non-dangerous individual who is capable of surviving safely in freedom by themselves or with the help of willing and responsible family members or friends. Since the trial court jury found, upon ample evidence, that petitioner did so confine respondent, the Supreme Court upheld the trial court’s conclusion that petitioner had violated respondent's right to liberty.[1][2][3][quote]


Linque: Wikipedia


That was 1975, however Reagan DEFUNDED the entire system in 1980.
Mental Health Systems Act of 1980.

Quote:
The Mental Health Systems Act of 1980 (MHSA) was United States legislation signed by President Jimmy Carter which provided grants to community mental health centers. During the following Ronald Reagan administration, the United States Congress repealed most of the law.[1] The MHSA was considered landmark legislation in mental health care policy.


O'Connor v. Donaldson might have been adjudicated in 1975 but my strongest memory of moving to Southern California was the fact that during 1982 to 1983 I seldom saw homeless shopping cart people wandering the streets of LA. Then, almost overnight, as California ran out of funds which had kept the tide from overrunning the shore, the floodgates were opened. 1984 was the year I moved to the artsy fartsy part of Venice, but I'd been a fixture there since I moved to LA two years earlier.
But the parade of homeless came to Abbot Kinney Blvd just like it came to the rest of LA County.

But friends of mine still back in the DC suburbs of Maryland reported that THEY started seeing the bag ladies and shopping cart people shortly into late Spring 1980.

Minnesota and California had strong enough state programs that they managed to contain the fallout for a while. Friends in Minnesota said that they didn't start seeing bag ladies and shopping cart homeless until the late 1980's. Then Minnesota's funds started running low.
Hennepin County still has a fairly robust (by comparison) mental health program, and that might only be because the sight of a mentally ill homeless person literally frozen to the sidewalk is something most people don't react well to.

But for those who fall through the cracks, when winter comes, it's either get religion and find a cot at a mission, or throw a rock through a shop window and get 90 days in Hennepin County Jail for three hots and a cot in there. And if your sentence isn't stiff enough, you too might become a bum-sicle outside.

As you might guess, Southern California weather is such that it's something of a pipeline for the mentally ill homeless.

But I have lived here long enough that I remember when they were not so much a regular fixture on the streets. I may have gotten here at the very tail end of it but I do remember how suddenly they all just "showed up".
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304816 - 01/03/18 08:13 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15953
They didn't just show up, they were delivered. Google "busing the homeless". In the 80s there was a huge movement to empty mental wards, and many institutions literally delivered patients to the bus station, gave them a ticket to anywhere and brushed their hands together. It was headline news in many places.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304823 - 01/03/18 05:52 PM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: Ken Condon]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6403
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
Antonin G. Scalia ... would be able to shed a clear and absolute light upon my query

I doubt it. He was still considering RPGs.

But because for conservatives it is clear the Founders meant all manner of hand held and human transportable weapons, it opens up for questions of suitcase nukes, miniature rail guns, or sonic weapons.

I am holding out for the sonic weapons and want to see the arguments which would infringe on my right "to keep and bear" a non-lethal weapon for personal protection.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#304831 - 01/03/18 10:46 PM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: Ken Condon]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 292
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
Did they have repeating muskets back then?


Yep

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belton_flintlock

and not the only one...
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#304861 - 01/04/18 07:58 PM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15953
Yeah, but... how many people actually knew about the possibility? That was not the basis for the Second Amendment, anyway. As I've noted before, the Constitution's drafters had a specific concept in mind, and it wasn't individual carry.

Really, the issue is what do we do about it? Until the majority of the Supreme Court changes, we're stuck with a deliberate misinterpretation of the Constitution. The decisions were not based on history or facts, but ideology. Fringe ideology at that.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304878 - 01/04/18 11:37 PM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: Ujest Shurly]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3801
Loc: Eugene, OR
Quote:
Yep


Hmm

Who knew?......healthcare could be so complicated.....

Yet it does not appear that Joseph Belton's repeating musket design worked very well, if at all.

Anyway, bring on the “living document” as most rational people would agree upon. Imagine if all human knowledge, wisdom, and inventiveness had been frozen in perpetuity since 1776.

Although, I am sure one would be able to find a number people who wish that were to be so.
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