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#304807 - 01/03/18 02:17 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3787
Loc: Eugene, OR
Since “Originalists” keep attempting to transport themselves back into the brains and discern “correct” thought patterns of our founders who assembled those documents, (and then divine the absolute truth as to what was their intent), I continue to wonder what they would make of modern day armaments that are freely and easily available to the US general public.

“Being necessary to the security of a free State......shall not be infringed.”

I know this has been discussed endlessly here before, but it never ceases to amaze and befuddle me. I am sure that if somehow Antonin G. Scalia could be revived for a few hours he would be able to shed a clear and absolute light upon my query:

Did they have repeating muskets back then?
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#304812 - 01/03/18 04:38 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: Ken Condon]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12987
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
Quote:
Uhhhmmm, didn't Ronald Reagan shut down most of the state mental hospitals?


Nope. Or at least it was not entirely in Reagan’s lap. It was more about this:

Quote:
O'Connor v. Donaldson, 422 U.S. 563 (1975), was a landmark decision in mental health law. The United States Supreme Court ruled that a state cannot constitutionally confine a non-dangerous individual who is capable of surviving safely in freedom by themselves or with the help of willing and responsible family members or friends. Since the trial court jury found, upon ample evidence, that petitioner did so confine respondent, the Supreme Court upheld the trial court’s conclusion that petitioner had violated respondent's right to liberty.[1][2][3][quote]


Linque: Wikipedia


That was 1975, however Reagan DEFUNDED the entire system in 1980.
Mental Health Systems Act of 1980.

Quote:
The Mental Health Systems Act of 1980 (MHSA) was United States legislation signed by President Jimmy Carter which provided grants to community mental health centers. During the following Ronald Reagan administration, the United States Congress repealed most of the law.[1] The MHSA was considered landmark legislation in mental health care policy.


O'Connor v. Donaldson might have been adjudicated in 1975 but my strongest memory of moving to Southern California was the fact that during 1982 to 1983 I seldom saw homeless shopping cart people wandering the streets of LA. Then, almost overnight, as California ran out of funds which had kept the tide from overrunning the shore, the floodgates were opened. 1984 was the year I moved to the artsy fartsy part of Venice, but I'd been a fixture there since I moved to LA two years earlier.
But the parade of homeless came to Abbot Kinney Blvd just like it came to the rest of LA County.

But friends of mine still back in the DC suburbs of Maryland reported that THEY started seeing the bag ladies and shopping cart people shortly into late Spring 1980.

Minnesota and California had strong enough state programs that they managed to contain the fallout for a while. Friends in Minnesota said that they didn't start seeing bag ladies and shopping cart homeless until the late 1980's. Then Minnesota's funds started running low.
Hennepin County still has a fairly robust (by comparison) mental health program, and that might only be because the sight of a mentally ill homeless person literally frozen to the sidewalk is something most people don't react well to.

But for those who fall through the cracks, when winter comes, it's either get religion and find a cot at a mission, or throw a rock through a shop window and get 90 days in Hennepin County Jail for three hots and a cot in there. And if your sentence isn't stiff enough, you too might become a bum-sicle outside.

As you might guess, Southern California weather is such that it's something of a pipeline for the mentally ill homeless.

But I have lived here long enough that I remember when they were not so much a regular fixture on the streets. I may have gotten here at the very tail end of it but I do remember how suddenly they all just "showed up".
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#304816 - 01/03/18 08:13 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15756
They didn't just show up, they were delivered. Google "busing the homeless". In the 80s there was a huge movement to empty mental wards, and many institutions literally delivered patients to the bus station, gave them a ticket to anywhere and brushed their hands together. It was headline news in many places.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304823 - 01/03/18 05:52 PM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: Ken Condon]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6312
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
Antonin G. Scalia ... would be able to shed a clear and absolute light upon my query

I doubt it. He was still considering RPGs.

But because for conservatives it is clear the Founders meant all manner of hand held and human transportable weapons, it opens up for questions of suitcase nukes, miniature rail guns, or sonic weapons.

I am holding out for the sonic weapons and want to see the arguments which would infringe on my right "to keep and bear" a non-lethal weapon for personal protection.
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ignorance is the enemy
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#304831 - 01/03/18 10:46 PM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: Ken Condon]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 265
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
Did they have repeating muskets back then?


Yep

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belton_flintlock

and not the only one...
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The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

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#304861 - 01/04/18 07:58 PM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15756
Yeah, but... how many people actually knew about the possibility? That was not the basis for the Second Amendment, anyway. As I've noted before, the Constitution's drafters had a specific concept in mind, and it wasn't individual carry.

Really, the issue is what do we do about it? Until the majority of the Supreme Court changes, we're stuck with a deliberate misinterpretation of the Constitution. The decisions were not based on history or facts, but ideology. Fringe ideology at that.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304878 - 01/04/18 11:37 PM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: Ujest Shurly]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3787
Loc: Eugene, OR
Quote:
Yep


Hmm

Who knew?......healthcare could be so complicated.....

Yet it does not appear that Joseph Belton's repeating musket design worked very well, if at all.

Anyway, bring on the “living document” as most rational people would agree upon. Imagine if all human knowledge, wisdom, and inventiveness had been frozen in perpetuity since 1776.

Although, I am sure one would be able to find a number people who wish that were to be so.
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