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#304775 - 01/02/18 03:28 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16238
It would certainly quiet the halls of Congress....
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304776 - 01/02/18 04:13 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: Greger]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6530
Loc: Highlands, Tx
the basis [for their world view] of many conservative elected officials is paranoia. Listen to Rep Jim Johnson for an iconic example of paranoid delusions and the results.

I have advocated for many years these folks need to be on meds. That does no mean I want them to agree with me, but rather that they believe something based on rational thought.
_________________________
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#304780 - 01/02/18 05:05 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7937
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
That's kind of pushing the envelope of government power

No, we actually used to do it. Remember "the men in white coats will come for you" when somebody was acting crazy? Then the ultra-liberals closed down all the state mental hospitals because they planned to replace them with community outpatient clinics. We could do that because of the new psychiatric drugs that made lobotomies and straight jackets obsolete. Then of course EVERYBODY forgot to fund those clinics, and all the loonies are walking around loose living homeless and crapping on the sidewalks. (Or in this case tweeting dangerous BS to 50000 followers.)

It finally happened in Southern California: The Hepatitis A problem from all that poop everywhere got so bad sterilizing the sidewalks was no longer working. Now we all need Hep A vaccinations.

Respecting the loonies freedom is not a suicide pact. The obvious solution is to follow through and build the damned clinics, and use the same level of coercion used in the old state hospitals to keep the people who need it treated. We know if you don't use that minimal level of force that some people will decide not to take their meds. They are crazy, after all. Some of them are going to like being crazy, but we don't have to live with that.

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#304795 - 01/02/18 10:08 PM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16238
In terms of facts driving decisions, this is probably the most pertinent part of that article:
Quote:
Only 15 percent of us now say we ever hunt, less than half as many as in the 1970s. In any given year, maybe a third of those hunters among us, 5 percent of Americans, actually slog through fields and forests with rifles and shotguns.

In fact, fewer of us now own any kind of gun for any reason—even as the number of guns has increased phenomenally. In the 1970s about half of Americans had a gun, and it was almost always just a gun, one on average. Today only about a quarter of Americans own guns—but the average owner has three or four. Fewer than 8 million people, only 3 percent of all American adults, own roughly half the guns. Members of that tiny minority of superenthusiasts own an average of 17 guns apiece.
As I have often stated, I believe that there is an inherent right to own firearms, although not under the 2nd Amendment. That right, like all rights, is subject to reasonable restrictions. Our current restrictions are not reasonable - they are insufficient.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304798 - 01/02/18 10:42 PM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13302
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
That's kind of pushing the envelope of government power

No, we actually used to do it. Remember "the men in white coats will come for you" when somebody was acting crazy? Then the ultra-liberals closed down all the state mental hospitals because they planned to replace them with community outpatient clinics.


Uhhhmmm, didn't Ronald Reagan shut down most of the state mental hospitals?
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"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
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#304799 - 01/03/18 12:13 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6530
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
there is an inherent right to own firearms

I reject that notion.

I consider a right to be inherent or inalienable only if that right existed at the moment of the inception of the pneuma. Since guns have only existed in modern times, there can be no inalienable or inherent "right" associated with guns. Thus there can be only one inherent or inalienable right; the primeval right of
the biological imperative to survive.

However, States may bestow "rights" through number of means and then guarantee those rights. Such is the case of guns in America. The Founders bestowed a partial, guaranteed right to own guns which could be revoked under proper Constitutional remedies. In fact the Founders wrote a list of properties which they believed identified and explained what it means to be a sovereign person. Note that every "right" bestowed by the created government is universal, i that every person has the right regardless of any personal property consideration.

Obviously any "right" given by the State can also be abrogated. It is therefore incumbent on citizens to ensure guarantees are in place to preserve those "rights".

hmmm ... a segue in the Trump era ... are we in danger of losing some of our fundamental rights? The Trump administration would preserve the 2nd, but would they preserve the 1st? If I had lived in Germany in 1933 would I have seen the same type of rhetoric from the new Chancellor as we hear from Mr Trump?
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#304800 - 01/03/18 01:34 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: rporter314]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16238
Let me explain my view of rights. I agree that the "rights" we enjoy are only those that are "guaranteed" by the governments we have. In that sense, I do think that Trump is an actual threat to those right in that he has no idea how the government works, or what's in the Constitution. But, the structure of the Constitution is such that we have that bundle of rights that are not prohibited by it. This is explicit in the 9th Amendment. These rights are not unlimited, but they exist with a presumption of legitimacy and can only be restricted when the government is exercising a specific authority, and has a rational basis for the restriction.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304801 - 01/03/18 01:37 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3821
Loc: Eugene, OR
Quote:
Uhhhmmm, didn't Ronald Reagan shut down most of the state mental hospitals?


Nope. Or at least it was not entirely in Reagan’s lap. It was more about this:

Quote:
O'Connor v. Donaldson, 422 U.S. 563 (1975), was a landmark decision in mental health law. The United States Supreme Court ruled that a state cannot constitutionally confine a non-dangerous individual who is capable of surviving safely in freedom by themselves or with the help of willing and responsible family members or friends. Since the trial court jury found, upon ample evidence, that petitioner did so confine respondent, the Supreme Court upheld the trial court’s conclusion that petitioner had violated respondent's right to liberty.[1][2][3][quote]


Linque: Wikipedia
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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#304803 - 01/03/18 01:42 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: Ken Condon]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3821
Loc: Eugene, OR
And this decision has helped to exacerbate the numbers of homeless we are all witnessing today.

But.. If I knew the way, I would take you home....
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#304804 - 01/03/18 01:44 AM Re: America's Gun Fantasy [Re: pondering_it_all]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7937
Loc: North San Diego County
High explosives were invented at some point and the state has decided you have to have training, a license, and a legitimate need to possess pounds of high explosives. Same thing with fully automatic weapons. There are loads of things the state has decided need restrictions. All quite reasonable. Some Libertarians may huff and puff about inalienable rights, but most everybody considers them insane.

So the state decides what we may and may not own, which is the right we collectively grant them as citizens. If you don't like that, renounce your citizenship and move. Good luck finding a reasonable country to live in that lets you own whatever you want. Most of the places that will are Third World shite-holes where some bigger stronger bastard will kill you for those guns, explosives, etc.

Despite the 2nd Amendment, there is no inalienable right to own anything if the state decides we are better off without it. The 2nd Amendment requirements could be met by a locked armory in each state, only accessible by the states's National Guard. If you join The Guard, they will store a gun in there with your name on it!

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