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#304557 - 12/21/17 08:53 PM Gut check
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
There's a lot of energy right now coming from the democratic base for sure. The challenge that I see is that the energy may get squandered by the poo bahs in the executive committees. For some reason there is an unwillingness to do a serious ground up critique and all we have coming from the party leaders is 'Bernie voters failed us by talking about real populist issues (HAH!)' or 'The Russians!......'
I've been a big fan of Thomas Frank for a while now. He seems to be from the grass roots progressive mold. Not at all like the professional pundit class. He has gone to where the election was lost and wrote about it well before the latest string of democratic defeats culminated in the 2016 election. I thought he did an exceptional job of 'What's wrong with Kansas'. His 'Listen Liberal' was an incisive follow on.
I'm hoping that the millenials take a lesson from him as well as other's. His unvarnished critique of the professional corporate democratic party is accurate and necessary if there is any hope of political gains and true economic, social progress for the future (a big if).
Thomas Frank


Edited by chunkstyle (12/21/17 08:57 PM)

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#304564 - 12/22/17 02:34 AM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14196
Loc: Florida
So the party is about to split between the good grassroots progressives who want to see immediate and major changes in the party and the bad old corporate Dems who sort of just want to keep doing what they've been doing and opposing the Republicans.
I guess it worked for the TEA Party.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#304567 - 12/22/17 03:56 AM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
How'd sticking with the corporate Dems (formerly known as moderate republicans) work out then?
The Democratic Party as it was historically known has been eviserated. The corporate substitute has lead to historic party losses. The corporate wing picked their champion and ran one of the worst campaigns in my memory.
They were effective in killing a revolutionary insurgent's (o.k., not revolutionary. More of a true progressive liberal democrat of the past but that is now recognized as revolutionary or insurgent by today's Democratic Party standards).
Massive wealth inequality, unwillingness to support single payer healthcare, historically high student debt, historically high incarceration rates. Massive losses in state houses across the country.
Have you ever considered that the clinton's and their camp are the insurgents that split the party? Taking the party down this 'third way' lane might have had a role in the present situation?




Edited by chunkstyle (12/22/17 03:59 AM)

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#304568 - 12/22/17 04:00 AM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Progressives need to take their party back is all I'm sayin

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#304569 - 12/22/17 04:36 AM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14196
Loc: Florida
Quote:
a true progressive liberal democrat of the past

I'm having a hard time remembering when the Democratic Party was run by true progressive liberals like Bernie.

We'll see whether the hard left takes their party back from the moderates or just divides the voters into teams that will only vote for the liberal purists or the moderates. Democrats are pretty well known for staying home on election day already.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#304572 - 12/22/17 09:16 AM Re: Gut check [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7886
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
I'm having a hard time remembering when the Democratic Party was run by true progressive liberals like Bernie.


I think maybe never? I've been around since Eisenhower and I can't recall a real progressive President, in the sense we use that term today. Maybe FDR? But he was another rich guy who just did what he had to do to prevent another revolution. I think he was just pragmatic. By the time he got into office Hoover had tried all the usual conservative crappy ideas and they didn't work. FDR had to do something different, even if he was part of the East Coast elite.

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#304574 - 12/22/17 12:30 PM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16204
Jimmy Carter? Hello? JFK? LBJ? Is Barack Obama the most liberal president ever? WaPo (subscription). I question any list that doesn't list the proponents of New Deal and the Great Society.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304575 - 12/22/17 02:52 PM Re: Gut check [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Jimmy Carter? Hello? JFK? LBJ? Is Barack Obama the most liberal president ever? WaPo (subscription). I question any list that doesn't list the proponents of New Deal and the Great Society.


I would also suggest supporting working class families and organized labor?
I don't think Obama was liberal all that much. For me the banking crises was a clear indication of where he was going. Re-assert the status quo. Mild regulatory reform. Make the financial industry whole again while the families getting put out of their homes got sympathy. Another 'feel your pain' moment.
I recall the S&L debacle spawned a mass of resentment in the midwest and gave the militia movement a strong tailwind. I've always felt that the housing crises was going to do the same and I think we saw that play out IMHO. We first went with the guy who looked different and so, perhaps, will govern different. Meh..
2016 election was a real contest of who was going to bring real change to governance. Neoliberals killed off the option on their side of the aisle. The GOP suffered a hostile takeover.
The underlying stress, anger and despair is still with us. Probably going to get worse with the tax bill and getting rid of whats left of the safety net (old progressive achievements). Right to work got rid of collective bargaining, Corporate personhood has smothered public debate.
It seems obvious that he GOP is getting it's political fuel from a large part of the electorate that has been largely abandoned by the Ivy League corporate democrats. The Clintons and the Mandarins that they have surrounded themselves with have done a great deal to bring about this current situation. Co-opting the right while shedding it's left flank and labor.
If not now, when will be a good time for the Left and labor to reassert itself within the party? How far down the 'third way' road do we continue to go. Does Jeremy Corbyn's 'Our Revolution' style storming of the Labor party not offer any insight?

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#304577 - 12/22/17 04:13 PM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Another annoying exhibit of the Clinton DNC collusion resulted in low voter turnout.

S'all Bernies fault!
"I think the voices that are saying "Unify! Unify! Unify!" are making money off the status quo, who have their vested interest in the status quo or have their identities attached to the status quo..."

Effin succint


Edited by chunkstyle (12/22/17 04:22 PM)

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#304579 - 12/22/17 05:50 PM Re: Gut check [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14196
Loc: Florida
Bernie's fault? Good heaven's no. Bernie supporters fault...? No again.
It was a well fought primary, Bernie was an upstart and did remarkably well under the circumstances. If a few things had been different he might even have won. But politics is a dirty dirty business.

If I were to blame anything in particular for the way this last election turned out it would be the media.

Unlike yourself, Chunky, I don't hate Hillary Clinton. I think she would have been an able and efficient administrator and that she would probably have been more liberal than president Obama. We might be seeing more environmental regulation, rising wages, and a tax package that actually benefited the working class and the poor. We'd be seeing fixes to to the ACA which might ultimately lead to single payer healthcare and we wouldn't be worrying about the CHIPS program, Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security being ignored, cut, and underfunded to pay for tax cuts for the wealthiest among us.

We'd have seen about the same thing under a Sanders administration.

And of course, please bear in mind that Hillary Clinton, despite everything you say about her crappy campaign and whatnot, won the popular vote by 3 million votes.

What the hard left seems to ignore in their(your) cry for rapid and dramatic change is that old adage..."Politics is the art of the possible."
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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