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#304609 - 12/23/17 10:10 PM Moderation and good will
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2195
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
We have to start defining what we are talking about. I have asked around about, for instance, the difference between progressive and liberal. I have been told that progressives are to the left of liberals. The strange thing is that none of this actually makes any difference. Instead of the politics of liberal, progressive, socialist, etc., and then loading the whole boat into a single political party (in this case the Democrats) is strange. We have a two party system and that system reflects Right and Left, nothing less nothing more. The left, for instance, is supposed to hold all them liberals, progressives, socialists, etc. and, in general, these different groups are all on the left and should vote for the banners of the left, ie. Democratic. T

Te problem with the system is that things get in the way of this. The Bernie supporters, for instance, whilst claiming the left voted for Trump and are, at least in part, responsible for Trump because they were in a snit. Folks tend, for instance, to let crap to get between themselves are where they really are. Somebody who doesn't like abortions, for instance, are quite capable of actually being on the left (irregardless of all the baggage abortion brings with it). The problem is simple, and I believe it applies to both sides. People tend to get sidelined on personal druthers. I know, for instance, any number of so called conservatives who love to say that their perfect candidate is one who is socially liberal and fiscally conservative. Their problem, of course, is that the right is, currently and seemingly, controlled by the religious right (not so much politically but religiously). I can remember when they made their move in this regard and, at the time, there was a LOT of talk about it. In the end, however, the religious right won. "religious right" refers to groups who put religion in front of everything else and are, basically, the extremists religious true believers. An example of this group would be those who actually believe that the End is near and what is left is that for all the Jews to convert to Christianity (really!). To this end they own a lot (possibly even most) of the radio stations in Israel. Anyway, on the left we have the battles between just how left one is. This runs from communism/socialism to middle of the roaders. The problem, for the left, is that each little group wants to be in charge and run everything and the others won't let that happen so there is constant tension. This is ok I guess, the problem is that all facets of the left have to vote as a block, even if they don't get their own way. If they don't, you get Trump, and its time for them to, for all practical purposes, start to march in step instead of flying off in all directions. The Democratic party is where they get to fight out who does/manages/gets, etc. The current problem seems to be they don't seem to be able to sit down and work it out. This is, in the end, the same problem congress seems to also have.

All this started with Gingrich and the philosophy of not giving an inch. The Republicans embraced that crap and then communicated that disease to the left as well as the entire right. Its pretty simple and goes like; "if I don't get my way nobody else does either". If the nation is to survive, where it exists for EVERYBODY, this has to end and I don't know how to get our elected class to do it. I think this also has a lot to do with greed. An example of which is the current so called, tax cut or tax overhaul, which is neither an overhaul or a cut but, rather, a sacrifice, and sell out, of everything so that the rich will continue to support the Right.

Unfortunately, currently, the Right has decided that its time to do away with all entitlements (their wet dream). The main ones are Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid and they want them gone. The current Trump budget details this and they are making no bones about it, other than to half heartedly denying the objective facts of it all.

The good news is that, next year, gov will start to take 25 billion out of Medicare and another 25 out of Medicaid which should, if they are not asleep, upset the base of the right (we will see). The right is also working hard to get rid of all public education and Voss has made no doubt that is the plan. They are also working hard to get rid of any gov based work on the environment as well as a lot more (I have tried to list some of this my "what Trump has done" topic. Remember, a true conservative is, basically, against regulation - ALL regulation! Their argument is simple, it goes like; "We are over regulated which takes away our freedom" Then they will give lots of examples , many of which are even true. This, in turn, brings up the next problem and that is our problem of going to extremes. We are currently in a cycle where the right is going to extremes but the left has certainly had their days of extreme regulation as well. The two main problems are, then, for both sides, is lack of moderation and not giving an inch. I truly believe that the solution is that the sides have to understand they are not there to win but to do their best for the nation. I further believe that when the two sides sit down to legislate nobody should give an inch so much as find a middle ground and legislate that much. If both sides were willing to do that we would be, right now, in a MUCH better place!

So, the big fight is currently whether the nation should give up ALL so called entitlements or not - it kinda boils down to that I think. After that one is decided then everybody should calm down and try to find a place for moderation, good will, and doing the nation's work rather than treating governance as some kind of football game where each side sets out to destroy the other side.

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#304610 - 12/23/17 10:17 PM Re: Moderation and good will [Re: jgw]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41066
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

I view Dems as being center-right like the Clintons, Gores, Pelosi's, and Progressives like Bernie Sanders. I view countries like Germany, Japan, Australia, United States, and Canada as center-right, while countries like Denmark, Sweden, Finland as Progressive.
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#304611 - 12/23/17 10:35 PM Re: Moderation and good will [Re: jgw]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41066
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: jgw
...All this started with Gingrich and the philosophy of not giving an inch...

Yet Newt was more than happy to give an inch or three to any woman not his wife. coffee
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#304631 - 12/24/17 09:51 PM Re: Moderation and good will [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2195
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
referring to norther europe as being progress is interesting. For instance, Northern Europe is not advocating any social reform, they have done that and it works. The reason it works is because they have a system of gov that actually works, that has not been demonized by them that hate gov, and an obviously educated voting public as well as an elected class that is there to help the nation rather than reducing their politics to nothing better than a kindofa football game.

The word itself:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/progressive
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/progressive

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#304645 - 12/25/17 03:13 PM Re: Moderation and good will [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16373
I think people, in general, like to coopt words. I consider myself progressive, meaning center-left, rather than liberal, meaning far left. Now the far-left-liberals are attempting to coopt the word for their extremism to hide from bad press, and it pisses me off. Admit that you're liberal, and leave my word alone! Similarly, the current crop of revanchists cloak themselves in the wool of conservatism, but they are nothing of the sort. Stop lying!

I'm a Moderate. I believe that government can do good and is limited by the Constitution. We have checks and balances for a reason, but that does not prevent change or progress. In years past, even conservative jurists believed in a "living" Constitution, especially the founding fathers.

Proper governing requires accepting responsibility, and governing for ALL of the people, not just your voters. Rational thought has given way to extreme partisanship and hostility to governing. I believe any legislator who voted FOR this abominable tax cut should be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail - period. They are no better than our worst enemies. Mitch McConnell is a traitor. And I mean that as defined in the Constitution: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort." statute . He has actively subverted the Constitution, and given aid and comfort to our enemies, as has Trump. Just ask Putin.
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#304662 - 12/26/17 10:58 PM Re: Moderation and good will [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2195
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
You are right about the words. My kids, for instance, consider "pregressive" to be the folks on the far left and the liberals are center left. This leads me to believe that the words "liberal" and "progressive" are non-specific but tend to describe them on the left to one degree or another. How about; far left, left, liberal, progressive? This is actually one of them deals that really makes no difference at all. The trick is to get ALL the lefties (no matter what word they think applies to them) onboard, when it comes to voting, irregardless of individual quibbles. I trick, I suspect, is to not go overboard when it comes to Democratic planks so there is room for all the lefties.

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#304663 - 12/27/17 12:04 AM Re: Moderation and good will [Re: jgw]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8912
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
My own preference is to define 'progressive' as non-ideological left leaning.
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#304664 - 12/27/17 03:07 AM Re: Moderation and good will [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8072
Loc: North San Diego County
I think the label Liberal goes way back to England, where it was the Tories versus the Liberals. The modern equivalent is the centrist part of the Democratic Party who pretty much are satisfied with the relationship of individuals with the government under Obama AND under Clinton.

To the left is Progressives: FDR New Deal types who want to make some changes, but nothing that fundamentally changes the economy. (That's the progress they are after.) They like marriage equality, marijuana decriminalization, and ending the death penalty.

Left of them are Socialists who want to make some big changes. Single payer, free college for all, universal basic income, etc.

I would say I am Progressive and admire some Socialist ideas, but I don't think they would work very well. So I'm too pragmatic to be a Socialist.

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#304667 - 12/27/17 02:23 PM Re: Moderation and good will [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41066
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
To the left is Progressives: FDR New Deal types who want to make some changes, but nothing that fundamentally changes the economy. (That's the progress they are after.) They like marriage equality, marijuana decriminalization, and ending the death penalty.

Left of them are Socialists who want to make some big changes. Single payer, free college for all, universal basic income, etc.

I would say I am Progressive and admire some Socialist ideas, but I don't think they would work very well. So I'm too pragmatic to be a Socialist.

I agree with your whole statement.

For me, it would be: Socialists...Progressives...Liberals...Centrists/Moderates/Center-Right...Liberal Republicans...Conservatives(Regressives)...Fascists

I would say that I am a socialist-leaning Progressive. smile
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#304668 - 12/27/17 04:47 PM Re: Moderation and good will [Re: pdx rick]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14416
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Socialists...Progressives...Liberals...Centrists/Moderates/Center-Right...Liberal Republicans...Conservatives(Regressives)...Fascists


"Liberal Republicans" sounds a bit like an oxymoron to me.

Socialists/Progressives/Liberals/Centrists/Moderates/Center-Right seems to cover the Democratic Party pretty effectively. It's a big tent. I'm not really aware of any Republicans as far left as Center-Right anymore. There's a gap between even that and the ones we call "Moderate Republicans" these days.
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