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#288008 - 05/15/16 06:08 PM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15967
In the United States, and all its constituent jurisdictions, there is a justice system that follows certain specific precepts: right to a trial by peers, right to counsel, proof behind a reasonable doubt, and a presumption of innocence. There are, of course, flaws and errors, and abuses within that system, and I have spent a good deal of my career addressing them on behalf of clients. But, in the main, the system works.

In the Hammond cases, those mechanisms were in play and apparently worked well. The prosecution was not unreasonable, offered plea deals, dismissed charges, and argued for the minimum sentence. At the end, the jury determined that the alleged crimes occurred, and did not believe the Hammonds' claims. That is how the process is supposed to work.

The Bundys and their co-conspirators decided that their view of how things should be prevailed over the existing system and the rights of anyone who disagrees. It really boils down to an "entitlement" worldview. They believe they are entitled to deference for their views, even if they are not held by a majority, their neighbors, or are consistent with the law, and even if they are actively in conflict with the interests of those neighbors.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#288009 - 05/15/16 07:17 PM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40889
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
The Bundys and their co-conspirators decided that their view of how things should be prevailed over the existing system and the rights of anyone who disagrees. It really boils down to an "entitlement" worldview. They believe they are entitled to deference for their views, even if they are not held by a majority, their neighbors, or are consistent with the law, and even if they are actively in conflict with the interests of those neighbors.

These SovCit idiots were also egged on by W. Cleon Skousen's annotated "pocket Constitution."

Skousen, who once accused President Dwight D. Eisenhower of being a Soviet agent and whom Time magazine once labeled an “exemplar of the right-wing ultras,” pairs the original Constitutional text with quotes from Founding Fathers about the necessity of religion in governance - so you know that right-wing nuttery was at the heart of the occupation as well. Hmm

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#288028 - 05/16/16 06:42 PM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: pdx rick]
Bored Member Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 190
This is slightly dated but, interesting.......

Quote:
The Real Agenda Behind the Oregon Takeover

All this leads us to thinking that Bundy chose the Malheur refuge as the focus for extreme action precisely because the 2013 agreement was working, not because it wasn’t working.

As described, the 2013 agreement is actually a model for mobilizing local stakeholders in support of federal land ownership. That presents a direct threat to the movement to privatize federal land, promoted by the powerful lobbying organization ALEC under the guise of a “states’ rights” philosophy.

Link

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#288029 - 05/16/16 07:25 PM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: Bored Member]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40889
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Bored Member
This is slightly dated but, interesting.......

Quote:
The Real Agenda Behind the Oregon Takeover

All this leads us to thinking that Bundy chose the Malheur refuge as the focus for extreme action precisely because the 2013 agreement was working, not because it wasn’t working.

As described, the 2013 agreement is actually a model for mobilizing local stakeholders in support of federal land ownership. That presents a direct threat to the movement to privatize federal land, promoted by the powerful lobbying organization ALEC under the guise of a “states’ rights” philosophy.

Link

All of the senior bird sanctuary take-over yahoos are Mormon (Bundys, Finicum, Cox) and I believe it is about the State of Deseret long wanted by the Mormons. By happy coincidence the nearly 90% of the area is "federal land."







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#288031 - 05/16/16 08:12 PM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7616
Loc: North San Diego County
BTW, I have actually taken part in a controlled burn in the national forest as part of a systems ecology degree program. We had to perform a measurement (weighing some known-weight sticks that had been laying in the forest litter) to be sure the humidity level was high enough, check that forecast winds would not be too strong, and finally check with the US Forest Service the morning we set the fire.

The fire covered about an acre, and the flames were never higher than 6 inches because the intent was to reduce the forest litter. We all had shovels and other digging tools and the Forest Service was standing by to control it if it got out of hand.

The point being that a controlled burn is VERY different from handing out matches with no regard to conditions, setting the fire, and then leaving when it gets out of control and starts the trees burning.

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#288033 - 05/16/16 08:34 PM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8800
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
The point being that a controlled burn is VERY different from handing out matches with no regard to conditions, setting the fire, and then leaving when it gets out of control and starts the trees burning.

Arson is not as anal...
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#288037 - 05/16/16 09:30 PM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: pdx rick]
matthew Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/24/16
Posts: 347
'
The state of "Deseret" would be dominated by the huge population of Southern California.

While a case may be made that the inhabitants of the "Inland Empire" are as cuckoo as the Mormons, I think their respective brands of cuckoo-ness are so different that they would soon be at war with each other.
.
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It is far easier to deceive folks than to convince them they are deceived

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#288038 - 05/16/16 11:25 PM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7616
Loc: North San Diego County
Back when that map was drawn, Southern California was just a few sleepy little missions and Native American villages.

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#288039 - 05/17/16 01:14 AM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15967
The side show to the side show:
Malheur Refuge Occupiers' Trial Date Set For Sept. 7

FBI Arrests Man Linked To Refuge Occupation On Weapons Charges
Quote:
A self-styled reporter sympathetic to the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge occupiers was arrested by the FBI Friday on two federal weapons charges in Grant County.

Michael Emry of Boise, Idaho was in Harney County throughout the armed occupation reporting for “The Voice Of Idaho,” a pro-Bundy website he established with his wife Becky Hudson.

Emry is charged with unlawful possession of a machine gun that is not registered to him, and for unlawful possession of a firearm with an obliterated serial number. Agents seized the .50 caliber Ma Deuce machine gun during a search under warrant of Emry’s trailer in Grant County.



Edited by NW Ponderer (05/17/16 01:45 AM)
Edit Reason: Remove Dupicate link
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#288040 - 05/17/16 12:08 PM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15967
I'd like to take a step back and avoid superheated rhetoric and esoteric detours on this subject. There are philosophic disagreements and some legitimate-ish grievances raised regarding BLM land management, but that is really not what this conflict was about. That, I believe, is pretext to foment conflict.

The movement that the Bundys, Hammonds, Funicums, etc., come from is NOT about grazing rights or "appropriate" use of the land -those are symptoms- but conflict. It is about an us-them mentality and view of the world, and an aggrieved, paranoid mindset. In days of old, they were the curmudgeons and eccentrics (depending on their economic status) that everyone just had to deal with. In other words, they've existed forever, but are more visible today. THE AMERICAN MILITIA PHENOMENON: A PSYCHOLOGICAL
PROFILE OF MILITANT THEOCRACIES
.

The differences today are communication and firepower. The internet in particular allows like-minded people to have a community to coalesce around and feed each other's egos. I don't think that Finicum's life would have ended as it did if he hasn't been encouraged and egged on to pursue his quirky views. And, frankly, they are quirky views. The Mind of the Militias Psychology Today.

It also represents a dangerous mindset. Increasingly, militia members are willing to engender confrontations. Oklahoma City Anniversary: Psychology Of Militia Movements - NPR. As we better understand the psychology behind terrorism, the more apparent it becomes that the "militia movement" is a real-world threat to the nation, and more specifically, to our communities. Burns, Oregon did not invite the militia to their town, but were innocent bystanders, as was Oklahoma City.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
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