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#305062 - 01/13/18 07:36 PM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: bigswede]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15686
Originally Posted By: bigswede
If I read one of the articles on the matter right, some people within the BLM confesses that the ranchers make a better job of preserving the type of nature intended to be preserved.
Boy, I'd sure like a specific quote rather than a vague recollection to establish this one. Can you clarify what "Type of nature" you seek to preserve? And this:
Quote:
The government is not obliged to charge high fares for ranchers upholding a living American culture.
The vast majority of the ranchers don't find the fees, which are modest, excessive.
Quote:
In the United States, grazing fees are generally charged per AUM (animal unit month). (Some additional fee or fees may be charged in various jurisdictions, e.g. per application.) On US federal grazing land, the grazing fee for 2012 (as for 2011) is $1.35 per AUM.[3] As of 2015, the grazing fee has been increased to $1.69.[4] Over several decades, the fees charged on US federal rangelands have generally been substantially lower than rates charged on private lands in the US.[5] In 2006, the grazing fee on Oregon state lands was $5.60 per AUM.[6]
Wikipedia. What about the cultures that pre-existed the ranchers? What about the bison that used to roam? What about the flora and fauna that are destroyed? Realistically, ranching is not dying out despite the government ownership of the land. The Bundys never owned the land their cattle graze on. What gives him a superior interest to ALL of those others?

It's not so much nostalgia, Swede, as ideological blindness. We, collectively, have brought forward reams of actual evidence to support our views in contrast to...? What, really?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#305064 - 01/13/18 07:46 PM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: bigswede]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6286
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
I'm worried about the hatred shown the ranchers by parts of the public. Often enough those parts that salute cultural diversity. Why won't they accept people who choose to continue living the way their families have for generations?

If that is what you really think, then you clearly need someone to explain to you why there is so much animus displayed against the Bundy Gang i.e. domestic terrorists.

THEY ARE BROKE THE LAW

However if you believe they have not .... well .... did they break the law?
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#305068 - 01/13/18 08:32 PM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: rporter314]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15686
Again, a statement without support: "hatred toward ranchers". Really? How is this manifest? Or, more realistically, is this just another example of straw logic. "In order to support my argument,I need to employ a straw man." It makes my miscreant seem like the victim here.

As the reality in Oregon showed, local ranchers supported the Malheur reserve, not the Bundy gang. CBS Ammon and his cohort were bringing their warped ideology to a place it wasn't wanted.


Edited by NW Ponderer (01/13/18 08:37 PM)
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#305069 - 01/13/18 09:07 PM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: NW Ponderer]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 321
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: bigswede
If I read one of the articles on the matter right, some people within the BLM confesses that the ranchers make a better job of preserving the type of nature intended to be preserved.

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Boy, I'd sure like a specific quote rather than a vague recollection to establish this one. Can you clarify what "Type of nature" you seek to preserve?
Quote:

I have read 10 or perhaps 20 articles on the matter only since Christmas, did not make a note at the time. But from I gathered it was mainly flora that benefits from grazing, or should we say loses out evolutionary from lack of grazing. Keeping those plants alive was the desired win. There may also be certain birds and insects that benefit.

They must find the fees objectionable, or they would pay, I imagine.

[quote=NW Ponderer] What about the cultures that pre-existed the ranchers? What about the bison that used to roam? What about the flora and fauna that are destroyed? Realistically, ranching is not dying out despite the government ownership of the land. The Bundys never owned the land their cattle graze on. What gives him a superior interest to ALL of those others?

What about them? There are programs for bringing back the bison. Nature is never destroyed. It is merely reshaped. Evolution makes sure of that. We sometimes help out, sometimes try to slow the natural process. Why can't you allow for those cultures you mentioned and the ranching culture? I can.

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
It's not so much nostalgia, Swede, as ideological blindness. We, collectively, have brought forward reams of actual evidence to support our views in contrast to...? What, really?

If I'm blind, then so are you. Just blind for other details.

I can't seem to get the quotes right, sorry for that.
_________________________
Cowardly men always plot to label Freedom as anarchy!

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#305070 - 01/13/18 09:09 PM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: rporter314]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 321
Originally Posted By: rporter314

THEY ARE BROKE THE LAW


That has not been confirmed in a court of law.
They seem to have broken some laws, but nothing that warrants the treatment they have been subjected to. Yet again, innocent until proven guilty!
_________________________
Cowardly men always plot to label Freedom as anarchy!

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#305071 - 01/13/18 09:37 PM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: bigswede]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8701
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: bigswede
That has not been confirmed in a court of law.

Yes, it has.

Quote:
The 2014 Bundy standoff was an armed confrontation between supporters of cattle rancher Cliven Bundy and law enforcement following a 21-year legal dispute in which the United States Bureau of Land Management (BLM) obtained court orders directing Bundy to pay over $1 million in withheld grazing fees for Bundy's use of federally-owned land adjacent to Bundy's ranch in southeastern Nevada.

Bundy has still not complied with the law, and a court order.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#305072 - 01/13/18 09:50 PM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: bigswede]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6286
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
They must find the fees objectionable, or they would pay, I imagine.

The Bundy gangsters i.e. domestic terrorists, did not argue the fees were too high, they argued the federal government had no right to levy a fee.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#305073 - 01/13/18 10:15 PM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: bigswede]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6286
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
They seem to have broken some laws, but nothing that warrants the treatment they have been subjected to.

You have confused a guilty verdict with the actual commission of a crime. One can commit a crime and not be convicted. That does not make them innocent. It makes them not guilty.

Their crimes have been preserved for posterity on tape and audio files.

You may access the list of federal laws the Bundy Gang broke. But I have to ask this, you obviously side with the domestic terrorists because of their political philosophy, so if Muslim terrorists, who do not share the same political philosophy as you or the Bundys, did precisely the same thing as the Bundys, would you support their efforts as you do the Bundys?

Now for the clincher. This is what Mr Clive Bundy said, "I abide by all of Nevada state laws. But I don't recognize the United States government as even existing".

So my question for you is, do you recognize the Federal government as legitimate?
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

Top
#305074 - 01/14/18 07:48 AM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: rporter314]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 321
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:
They must find the fees objectionable, or they would pay, I imagine.

The Bundy gangsters i.e. domestic terrorists, did not argue the fees were too high, they argued the federal government had no right to levy a fee.


Yes, that is one way of objecting.
_________________________
Cowardly men always plot to label Freedom as anarchy!

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#305075 - 01/14/18 07:55 AM Re: Let's check in on the cattle abusers, deadbeat grazers, wildlife squatter Bundys [Re: rporter314]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 321
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:
They seem to have broken some laws, but nothing that warrants the treatment they have been subjected to.

You have confused a guilty verdict with the actual commission of a crime. One can commit a crime and not be convicted. That does not make them innocent. It makes them not guilty.

Their crimes have been preserved for posterity on tape and audio files.

You may access the list of federal laws the Bundy Gang broke. But I have to ask this, you obviously side with the domestic terrorists because of their political philosophy, so if Muslim terrorists, who do not share the same political philosophy as you or the Bundys, did precisely the same thing as the Bundys, would you support their efforts as you do the Bundys?

Now for the clincher. This is what Mr Clive Bundy said, "I abide by all of Nevada state laws. But I don't recognize the United States government as even existing".

So my question for you is, do you recognize the Federal government as legitimate?


I understand the difference between "not guilty" and "not convicted". Just the same, in my opinion the authorities overreacted.
In the same manner, I believe it is utterly false to call the terrorists.

The Federal government is legitimate for it's prescribed purposes, not more. It is not of divine all mighty power.
Muslims, if also American citizens, what difference does it make?
_________________________
Cowardly men always plot to label Freedom as anarchy!

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