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#305249 - 01/23/18 04:17 AM Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map
pdx rick Offline
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Quote:

The Pennsylvania Supreme Court tossed out the state’s congressional map on Monday, throwing members and candidates into chaos and potentially boosting Democrats' chances to win the House majority this fall.

The state Supreme Court ruled that the House map "clearly, plainly and palpably violates" the state constitution and must be redrawn in the next three weeks...

Politico.com
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#305250 - 01/23/18 11:28 AM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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And the really cool thing is that the Supreme Court of the US never intervenes on such state-oriented issues. They make it a point not to. This decision is done. It can not be appealed.

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#305255 - 01/23/18 07:38 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
And the really cool thing is that the Supreme Court of the US never intervenes on such state-oriented issues. They make it a point not to. This decision is done. It can not be appealed.

Such satire!
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#305376 - 01/30/18 05:27 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

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Registered: 08/03/04
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Loc: Whittier, California
Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Kansas, Missouri and South Carolina also filed amicus briefs arguing that it was okay to wait till 2021 to fix the heavily gerrymandered maps which were ruled unconstitutional by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.
That's TWO MORE elections before this travesty is addressed.
The state Supreme Court stated that the maps “clearly, plainly and palpably” violated the state constitution.

Republicans lawmakers argued "there's no need to hurry."

David Daley, publisher of The Connecticut Mirror, says that the map resembles a cartoon of Goofy kicking Donald Duck.



The best part? The lawmakers also argued that new maps would harm donors and that their campaigns would have to spend more money. ROTFMOL
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#305378 - 01/30/18 05:54 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

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Registered: 08/03/04
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Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
And the really cool thing is that the Supreme Court of the US never intervenes on such state-oriented issues. They make it a point not to. This decision is done. It can not be appealed.


On the other hand, there is a reason why there was such pressure to deny Obama his last Supreme Court pick, and such a herculean effort to catapult Neil Gorsuch in there once Trump was elected.

The Republicans first argued that NO president has the right to seat a justice in their last year in office, then pirouetted to say that, should Hillary be elected, "no DEMOCRAT should be allowed to do so".
Of course, NOT in QUITE THOSE words. But Mitch McConnell made his point pretty clear with regard to a possible Hillary win.

So we are in uncharted territory and anything is possible.
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#305384 - 01/30/18 07:20 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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I think the history books will single out that as the point the Republican Party became a criminal organization.

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#305426 - 01/31/18 11:07 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

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Registered: 08/03/04
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Loc: Whittier, California
UPDATE:
I said earlier that the US Supreme Court tends to refuse cases like these however in light of today's actions by Joe Scarnati, it looks like the US Supreme Court is exactly where this case will be headed.
And personally, with an extremist like Gorsuch on the bench, that's not altogether a good thing:

Pa. state Senate leader refuses court order on redrawing district maps

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/...g-district-maps
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#305429 - 02/01/18 02:32 AM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Kansas, Missouri and South Carolina also filed amicus briefs arguing that it was okay to wait till 2021 to fix the heavily gerrymandered maps which were ruled unconstitutional by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.

Tough sh!t. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court said "three weeks." Get 'er done, Rethugliclowns. smile
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#305430 - 02/01/18 02:33 AM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
UPDATE:
I said earlier that the US Supreme Court tends to refuse cases like these however in light of today's actions by Joe Scarnati, it looks like the US Supreme Court is exactly where this case will be headed.
And personally, with an extremist like Gorsuch on the bench, that's not altogether a good thing:

Pa. state Senate leader refuses court order on redrawing district maps

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/...g-district-maps

The SCOTUS can decide not to hear the case. It all depends on which SCOTUS member is over the District Court that Pennsylvania resides in.
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#305431 - 02/01/18 02:36 AM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
The best part? The lawmakers also argued that new maps would harm donors and that their campaigns would have to spend more money. ROTFMOL

Tough sh!t part deux. Ignoring a court order is willful contempt of court. Arrest the mo'fo'. smile
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#305434 - 02/01/18 04:49 AM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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This is really the State Senate Republicans refusing to draw a new map, but it could be quite painful if the leader doesn't like sitting in a jail cell. That's what usually happens when you refuse to submit to a State Supreme Court order.

No matter: The court gave them some time to draw a new map and if they refuse or produce one that has a similar goofy shape, then the court said right in the order that they will appoint a Special Master to draw the map. He's already been selected and is working on it. So Republicans are just going to screw themselves even more by non-participation.

It is very complex to draw a gerrymander map. It takes about one day to draw a fair one. All you need is the population data for the state and a program that divides the state into equal-population districts.

Actually though, even if the population is about equally divided between Democrats and Republicans, I would not be surprised if there was a Democratic sweep even if they don't fix the map. When you gerrymander, you try to put just enough Republicans in as many districts as possible. There are no "safe" seats because you doled out Republican voters into other nearby districts. With a 10 point lead, Democrats could conceivable win EVERY district!

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#305442 - 02/01/18 06:29 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
Ujest Shurly Offline
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Loc: Michigan, USA
Unless there is a constitutional issue, SCOTUS almost never intervenes in matters the constitution puts squarely in the states control. Drawing voter district maps is squarely in the authority of the state. So the refusal of the State Senate Leader is between the him and the State Supreme Court.

At least that is my vote...

Lets have another Tea Party! Take politicians out of re-redistricting!
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#305446 - 02/02/18 06:04 AM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: Ujest Shurly]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ujest Shurly
Lets have another Tea Party! Take politicians out of re-redistricting!

California did that eight years ago. Why do you think the state is so prosperous today - besides the fact that Republicans not being able to ruin it for everybody who lives there? Hmm
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#305449 - 02/02/18 02:18 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
Ujest Shurly Offline
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I knew that California did this as had several other states. Last election, 2016, I and the wife signed a petition for Michigan to do the same thing.

State-by-State redistricting process.
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The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

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#305504 - 02/05/18 07:18 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
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SCOTUS denies request to get involved. smile
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#305505 - 02/05/18 07:56 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13120
Loc: Whittier, California
BLAMMO!!!
Rick and PIA called it!
PA Repubs are TOAST, the decision stands.

Look, we got beat when the SCOTUS ruled on Citizens United, bludgeoned when they gutted the Voting Rights Act, and we're stuck with the Electoral College, at least for now and for the foreseeable future.
But there is no universe where democracy survives where one party gets to have the EC + CU + gerrymandering + gutting the Voting Rights Act.

Personally I think they should be forced to pick ONE and ONLY one.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#305507 - 02/06/18 12:22 AM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7565
Loc: North San Diego County
I will be very interested to see the new House delegation, come November. If current trends continue, I predict not 50% Democratic but more like 80%.

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#305514 - 02/06/18 07:54 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1937
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
It was reported this morning that they have 2 weeks to get the job done. Nobody thinks that they can do that in that amount of time.

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#305517 - 02/07/18 12:05 AM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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I'm sure these maps already exist. They had to start with a simple model and then refine it to gain advantage. But if not, no problem. I'm sure the Special Master and the SC are ready to do it. In fact, I bet THEY already have maps drawn because they had to have something to compare the current gerrymandered maps to in making the decision it was unconstitutional.

It's actually a very well known computer science problem. You start with a square grid of the required number of squares. Then you let it adjust the grid boundaries to try to get equal populations in each "square". All boundaries have to be fairly straight. Let it run for a few hours and it will draw a near-perfect map. You don't even need to know how many Democrats and Republicans are in each location. It will draw some predominantly Republican districts and some predominantly Democratic districts, just because geography is like that. MUCH, MUCH easier than trying to gerrymander.

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#305519 - 02/07/18 01:20 AM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pondering_it_all]
Spag-hetti Offline
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Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1659
Loc: Middle, USA
Quote:
PIA said:
MUCH, MUCH easier than trying to gerrymander.


Yeah, but nobody said the cheaters were lazy.
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#305538 - 02/08/18 05:30 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
Ujest Shurly Offline
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Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 292
Loc: Michigan, USA
Some may have already seen this, but it is a good piece with a brief history of Gerrymandering and the current solutions to prove it and develop better districts...

Scientific American: The Mathematicians Who Want to Save Democracy, 7 June 2017
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The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#305539 - 02/08/18 06:53 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Interesting. I like the one that compares a district's perimeter length to it's volume. That's really really simple and objective, and it gets rid of all these obviously tortured district shapes. Legislatures could still play around with the general shapes of districts, like if they should use districts that are roughly longer North-to-South, or longer West-to-East. But I suspect that would be of such little value that they wouldn't bother.

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#305541 - 02/08/18 07:51 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1937
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
If I remember correctly the usual judicial solution, when them that were ordered to change things resist, is to appoint somebody to do the job? It goes something like; "if you don't do it I will get it done myself".

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#305543 - 02/09/18 08:57 AM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
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Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
appoint somebody to do the job


Yes, and that is right in the court order. I think Republicans have figured out they should stop resisting and participate so maybe they can get a better deal than if the Special Master appointed by the court does it. Of course, they can only get their map accepted if the (Democratic) Governor approves it. Not likely he would approved a half-assed change that kept on gerrymandering. I think they are toast.

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#305545 - 02/09/18 11:50 AM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
Kaine Online   content
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 2144
Loc: Pennsylvania
Pennsylvania republicans now want to impeach the 5 justices who signed the order.

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#305547 - 02/09/18 12:23 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: Kaine]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Kaine
Pennsylvania republicans now want to impeach the 5 justices who signed the order.

Quote:
A THOUGHT FOR TODAY:
The trade of governing has always been monopolized by the most ignorant and the most rascally individuals of mankind. -Thomas Paine, philosopher and writer (9 Feb 1737-1809)
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#305548 - 02/09/18 12:59 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Essentially, Pennsylvania Republicans are throwing a temper tantrum because they want to keep cheating the way they have in the past. I bet some of them lose their jobs in November. Nobody likes a poor sport.

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#305551 - 02/09/18 10:35 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
jgw Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1937
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I would imagine that they are pissing off, exactly, the wrong people and when voting times comes ........

Then, again, perhaps that too is just wishful thinking?

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#305574 - 02/14/18 03:53 AM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
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#305577 - 02/14/18 06:58 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Funny, but while hard-core conservatives might go along with Trump attacking professional football (by pointing that there are NEGROES in the NFL!), there are a lot of them who are obsessed with the sport. A lot of Independents and Democrats too, of course. The games focus on rules and sportsmanship (as opposed say to WWE wrestling) can only help Democrats in Pennsylvania, were the Republican legislature is looking more and more like poor sports.

They have been caught cheating and instead of saying: "Oh, sorry. We didn't notice." They are doing everything they can to keep on cheating. They may think this is a typical partisan fight, but to the vast majority of football fans it looks like bad losers who take their football and go home.

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#305657 - 02/20/18 03:46 AM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Loc: Puget Sound, WA


The new map is in. smile
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#305659 - 02/20/18 03:05 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
Spag-hetti Offline
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Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1659
Loc: Middle, USA
The new map looks a lot better. According to what I've read, there are still safe Republican districts and safe Democratic districts but there are also more competitive districts. I will be very interested to see how this all works out in the interim elections. I'm hopeful.
_________________________
Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#305676 - 02/21/18 02:17 AM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40878
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


Indeed, districts shaped like the chalk line of a dead body or a one-dimensional moose head with antlers is freaky-deaky. The new map looks oh so boring, that you know has to be correct. smile
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#305686 - 02/21/18 06:01 PM Re: Dems poised to gain seats after court throws out Pa. congressional map [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7565
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Much better on the perimeter to area ratio. That's a very simple objective measure of how gerrymandered the districts are.

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