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#305373 - 01/30/18 11:54 AM Re: dems smelling blood [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
It's fairly clear to many that the democratic socialist candidate would have won.


The ONLY reason Bernie did so well is that Republicans never attacked him. They WANTED him to win the primaries because he would have been so easy to defeat. HE was their chosen Democratic candidate.

Why? Because as soon as he won the nomination they would have screamed COMMIE nonstop until the election. Then they would have brought up some stuff he wrote years ago about underage sex and screamed PEDO too. By the time they were finished, less than 10% of the voters would have voted for him. What they did to Hillary for 30 years would have looked like a minor dislike in comparison.

It wouldn't have been "Democrat ahead by 5 million votes". It would have been "Democratic Socialist gets 10% of the vote".

Face it: Not even 10% of American voters favor Socialism, even though it makes perfect sense and would benefit them. But they just don't care. Don't take my word for it. Go out and ask 1000 people if they would vote for a Socialist. You'll see.

And count all the Socialists in The Senate: 1

BTW chunkstyle: "A constitutional amendment for a right to work" is a Republican union killer position, not a Democratic-Socialist position.


The republicans won't need raise their voice over socialism, PIA. They have you to do all the hollering for them.
Your punching left
FDR wanted to kill off unions? I'll have to look into that....

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#305386 - 01/30/18 07:46 PM Re: dems smelling blood [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7886
Loc: North San Diego County
I'm actually a Socialist myself. I want single-payer and free tuition for the college-capable. I think a minimum income would be a good idea. I hate the crazy income disparity we have in this country. I prefer Germany's style of union-management cooperation and apprenticeships for people not going to college.

BUT: You have to actually get there from here. Just marching behind a great big Socialist or Democratic-Socialist banner gets you exactly zero. You have to elect Democrats. You may even have to hold your nose and elect Democrats, but that's the only way you get to put non-dinosaurs on the Supreme Court, When you have a liberal court, then the programs a Democratic Congress and President implement have a chance of sticking around. Once they are implemented and have functioned for 8 years, people get used to them and can't live without them. They become the new normal. And we end up with the next Social Security.

You are attacking the very people who can make the future you want possible. The result is Trump.

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#305402 - 01/31/18 02:45 AM Re: dems smelling blood [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41017
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
The ONLY reason Bernie did so well is that Republicans never attacked him. They WANTED him to win the primaries because he would have been so easy to defeat. HE was their chosen Democratic candidate.

I dunno...

There are a lot of Bernie supporters, still, here in the PNW. But...it was her turn... coffee
_________________________
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#305405 - 01/31/18 03:31 AM Re: dems smelling blood [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13268
Loc: Whittier, California
Chunk, you've been overlooking the idea of remaking the Democratic Party.
Matter of fact, no one has responded to that, despite the fact that parties get remade all the time.
It's not the perfect solution but it sure is helpful WHILE we do the GENERATIONAL work required to fill thousands of third party spots at the lower levels.
You say DSA has been winning?
I saw a few spectacular singular wins, but no...they have not been SWEEPING.
Sorry Chunk, I WANT to believe but the facts are the facts, and the facts say that we need a SWEEP. There won't be any DSA "sweep", there will be a few spectacular, and EXCELLENT wins, and Dems would do well to welcome them.
But there COULD be a Democratic sweep, AND A sweep OF the Democratic Party.

Politics is the art of the possible, not "wishing it were so" and then being disappointed when it isn't...YET.
Note that I emphasized "YET".
That means that I agree with you that it is coming, just not this November...not YET.
And if we don't sweep this November, it's going to be a very depressing twelve years, maybe more.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#305418 - 01/31/18 08:57 PM Re: dems smelling blood [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2099
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
let me try again. The left is made up of folks who believe that people need regulation and the right believes the opposite. All the rest (socialism, communism, progressive, liberal, etc) are really just describing the degree to which folks on the left are willing to go. On the right we have the same but, in that case there are; Libertarians, Conservatives, and certain groups of self styled Christians, etc.

What the left needs to do is to get EVERYBODY on the left to understand that they are on the left and they should be voting on the left. The name of the main party of the left is the Democratic Party. The problem with the Democrats is that they haven't ever laid out the boundaries of the party. The problem with the entire Left is that the various groups don't seem to even talk to one another. I really thing that the problem is that those on the left don't understand that they are on the left and they have a bunch of fellow travelers that also qualify as lefties (which encompasses them all). The secret is to get everybody who thinks that regulation is actually a good thing needs to join up with one another and try to define a few boundaries. For instance, if you claim socialism does this mean that you really want the state to control ALL means of production? If you claim to be a communist does this mean that you not only believe in gov controlling all means of production but also attempting to control actions and thoughts of citizens. I am not suggesting anybody goes this far but if they do should the Democratic party embrace then? These are basic type questions and this is not a simple thing.

The right has its own crosses to bear. If they thing that regulations take the freedom of individuals to make their own right decision (they consider Social security and medicare this way). A hard core Libertarian believes that each individual must personally pay for any service. This means that they don't believe in gov should offer firefighting, police, or education as everybody gets taxed for them and taxes are evil. I am not saying that all libertarians believe all of this, nor, I suspect, to all conservatives. In other words these words describe the degree of their believe (I don't think many think having police is bad but, some may). It also seems that the Right make a lot more claims that "God is on our side" than does the Left.

So, If the two groups, Democrats and Republicans, can sit down and decide the variety of degrees they are willing to go to gain members, and actually write it all down so that we can see what their core beliefs are we would be on our way to some kind of agreement. Now, however, we really don't know. Bernie claims to be a Socialist. As far as I can tell if he is he really isn't much of one. I have yet to hear him, for instance, saying that gov should start taking over any business that hires more than 50 people (I know Socialists that would say that!). On the right you are not going to find may who would agree that people who want the services of a fire department to pay for that fire department and if they choose not to pay they would not be protected (this one was actually tried in a southern state in the last couple of years). What I am saying is that whilst they hate regulation most are willing to support a police force which is, to my way of thinking, a pretty serious form of regulation.

Anyway, the problem with both parties, as far as I can tell, is that they have both lost their way. I like to think of myself as a fiscal conservative and a social liberal. I think, for instance, that if gov spends my tax dollars then I want the money to be well spent, accounted for, and spent on something to do with the public good. On the social side I just do not care what anybody wants to do if they are not hurting others. (Its not normally any of my business; Religion, Sexual stuff, Voting, Politics, etc).

Then there are the societal things. These are things that the political parties claim as being exclusively theirs. The left, for instance, lays claim to healthcare even though the right must have an interest as well. Another is the military which the right claims although the left certainly has an interest. Then there is religion. The right claims religion but, again, the left too will have an interest. My suspicion is that these kinds of societal things are part of the problem. Right now we have each side claiming this and that with this stuff and its just plain silly. This is stuff that involves us all, whether we like it or not.

Anyway, after all that blather, all I really wanted to say is that many of our problems arrive when someone, some group, etc starts to lay claim to the belief that they are 'in charge' of a societal thing that we are all involved in. We need to set limits on systems of belief. If we can do that then, I believe, we can actually start to deal. Right now it seems its everybody for themselves and its simply not working. The right has the lying jackass and the left has folks willing to attack each other for silly. The latest one I saw was the attack on Hillary by a guy from South Africa. She seemed to have made a single error (offending the female offended) that actually hurt nobody after spending well over 30 years fighting the good fight and never backing down. My fond hope is that the Righteous Left should back off because, if they do not, they will arrive, full circle, in the same place the Righteous Right is today and this is not a real good place to be I think.

On reflection this is too long and a bit boring - sorry about that............

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#305437 - 02/01/18 05:34 AM Re: dems smelling blood [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7886
Loc: North San Diego County
Most of us are actually Moderates. Maybe a little Rightish, maybe a little Leftish, but we can all agree on lots of stuff. Just look at all the Republicans either getting health insurance through their employer or through ACA. They understand the value of health insurance and that's why Congress couldn't kill ObamaCare. Businessmen say they hate regulations, but that is baloney! They LOVE regulations that keep upstart competitors from taking their business. And a lot of hard-core conservatives say government should not regulate what people do, until a Black Man does it! All the people who voted Republican but would be horrified if Republicans cut their Social Security or Medicare.

Works the same way on the left: Nobody really wants the government to seize Amazon. At most, they just think we should have a 90% top tax rate for multi-millionaires and Single-Payer. Life in the US would not be that much different if they were running things. There would still be rich folks and poor folks, just not quite so rich or poor.

No need to annihilate anybody over it!

Sure, there are left-wing nutbags out there, just as there are right-wing nutbags. But those are a tiny fraction of our population, and most people ignore them until they do something really bad and then they send SWAT or the FBI to euthanize them.

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#305438 - 02/01/18 06:23 AM Re: dems smelling blood [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13268
Loc: Whittier, California
The problem is that conservatives only need one reason TO vote Republican and liberals only need one reason NOT to vote at all.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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