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#305555 - 02/10/18 04:29 PM The Electoral College Subverts the Will of the Majority Vote
Spag-hetti Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1662
Loc: Middle, USA
The electoral college has given us the worst two presidents in the last hundred years. Both Republicans. Hillary Clinton received more than two million more votes than Donald Trump and lost. I can see why Republicans love the electoral college. It, like gerrymandering and voter suppression, allows them political victories without having a true majority.

Is there a movement to get rid of the electoral college? It sure is being quietly debated, if so. I know I'd sign on.
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Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#305556 - 02/10/18 07:36 PM Re: The Electoral College Subverts the Will of the Majority Vote [Re: Spag-hetti]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 370
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
I disagree, I believe the Electoral College is the way it is BECAUSE OF Gerrymandering. Read the Constitution, Article II, Section I, 2nd paragraph "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner, the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors..."

Gerrymander the control of the State Legislature and control the Electoral College; control the Electoral College and the Gerrymandering process and control the House of Representatives, the Senate and the White House. Both parties are guilt of Gerrymandering.

The solution, to me, remove redistricting from the hands of politicians and find a way to keep the process non-political. This can be done at the state level without any change or involvement at the federal level. Or, take the hard road, try to get a Constitutional Amendment ratified to change or eliminate the Electoral College.
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#305557 - 02/10/18 09:09 PM Re: The Electoral College Subverts the Will of the Majority Vote [Re: Spag-hetti]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8069
Loc: North San Diego County
But political parties pick their slate of electors (which is entirely Party-dominated) and then the popular vote in each state selects which Party's slate will BE the electors. The state legislature really has nothing to do with it. In each state there will be a complete slate of Republican electors, a complete slate of Democratic electors, plus any other slates other parties care to put up.

The state legislature CAN decide the state electoral votes will be proportional or winner-take-all, but they do not affect who wins. US House Representatives DO affect it if there is an electoral vote tie, but how often does that happen? (answer 3)

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#305558 - 02/10/18 10:31 PM Re: The Electoral College Subverts the Will of the Majority Vote [Re: Spag-hetti]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13409
Loc: Whittier, California
The way I see it, they can KEEP the EC, but gerrymandering, voter suppression, Citizens United ALL at ONCE?
No...they get to keep ONE of those and only one, they don't get to keep them all.
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"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
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#305559 - 02/11/18 01:05 AM Re: The Electoral College Subverts the Will of the Majority Vote [Re: Spag-hetti]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8069
Loc: North San Diego County
Citrizens is a decided issue thanks to the Supreme Court: Don't plan on that ever being overturned, but it can work both ways. It means that businesses owned by one very rich person can contribute a huge amount to political campaigns, and they don't have to be Republican.

As for voter suppression, that keeps coming to courts and most of them overturn those laws. So progress has already been made and more to come. This deal in Florida to restore voting to ex-cons is a huge deal.

Gerrymandering looks like it's losing, too. Pennslyvania is just the first of many.

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#305560 - 02/11/18 01:54 AM Re: The Electoral College Subverts the Will of the Majority Vote [Re: Spag-hetti]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8069
Loc: North San Diego County
You could make the constitutional argument that the Electoral College interferes with the votes of people who live in populous states by weighing the votes of people in less populated states to count more. This has the advantage of actually being true, and is the argument that just won in Pennsylvania.

But since the electoral college is right there in the Constitution too, it would be hard for a Court to get rid of it. I think you have to do that by Constitutional Amendment, and that's something the large states can't do without a lot of those small states joining in.

Or maybe populous states could divide into smaller states. For example, California could divide in two and get two more Senators and two more electoral votes.

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#305561 - 02/11/18 04:36 AM Re: The Electoral College Subverts the Will of the Majority Vote [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14415
Loc: Florida
When Republicans lose an election because of the Electoral College we will begin to see serious efforts to be rid of it. Until then look for more of the same.
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#305562 - 02/11/18 01:05 PM Re: The Electoral College Subverts the Will of the Majority Vote [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16370
Everything said here has truth to it. The Electoral College is an anachronism of our founding process. When the United States was conceived, there was a disparity between large and small States, but not as severe as today. The Electoral College was a compromise that wasn't as skewed then as it is now (and there were only 13 States then).

Gerrymandering exacerbates the skewing of the vote (and anathema to democratic processes), but doesn't account for the Senate disparities. The parties distort elections more than anything. But what makes it worst? Voter turnout. With greater turnout, the majority would still win out. While there would still be a bias toward the small States, it would be much narrower.

There are more similarities in US populations than differences - look at polling - but we tend to emphasize the conflicts. The truth is, our Representatives don't represent us, rural or urban, or many of the bigger problems - taxes, immigration, healthcare, and infrastructure - would be solved by now.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

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#305563 - 02/11/18 08:09 PM Re: The Electoral College Subverts the Will of the Majority Vote [Re: Spag-hetti]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8069
Loc: North San Diego County
I think back then state sovereignty was a much bigger issue. So individual states demanded an equal number of members in the Upper House of the legislature, to represent the interests of the state equally independent of the state's population. For the People's House, it goes by population. This compromise seems reasonable, but when you assign an elector for each of those House and Senate positions then the population disparity effect comes into play. It would have been much fairer if they just assigned an elector for each House seat.

Impossible to change now because the low populations states that benefit would have to ratify the constitutional amendment.

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#305565 - 02/12/18 08:36 PM Re: The Electoral College Subverts the Will of the Majority Vote [Re: Spag-hetti]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2194
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I was always told that the electoral college was supposed to protect us from populist leaders. If that was true it was a complete failure which, in turn, means that it should go.

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