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#305588 - 02/16/18 01:56 PM Re: Round Table for January, 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
They supported the Democrat they thought could win. Bernie certainly couldn't. If he had won the primary, Republicans would have made mincemeat of him. He was their favorite Democrat because he would be so damned easy to beat.

And saying the Republicans and Democrats are all alike is simply a lie. After everything Trump has done, and everything Obama managed to do despite Congress blocking his every move, it should be obvious to everyone that Republicans and Democrats are fundamentally different.

The Democratic Party may not be Socialist, but they are VERY different from conservatives on almost every issue.


I actually take some comfort in recognizing your unshakeable loyalty to such a flawed candidate as the supporters of the current POTUS. The blind loyalty is not the behavior of one party.
Have a conversation with any Hillary supporter and there is just as much 'glorious candidate' attitude as there is for the current 'glorious leader'.
The Sanders campaign mounted a respectable challenge to Clinton that was not predicted by her team. A mistake of hubris she went on and repeated during the general election. There has been much reporting on the rigging of the primary by her campaign and the DNC as well as her incompetence and hubris in the general election. The echo chamber of a consultancy ecosystem with a built in self regard of it's own thoughts and views. Not so much with the very people whose votes she needed.
Again, try and have that kind of conversation with a Clinton supporter and you run into a brick wall of liberal fealty similar to the revanchist loyalty to POTUS.
You gotta be strong enough to kill your babies. Unfortunately the house of Clinton has no capacity for self reflection or criticism. Neither do her fans.


Edited by chunkstyle (02/16/18 02:00 PM)

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#305601 - 02/17/18 02:43 AM Re: Round Table for January, 2018 [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8084
Loc: North San Diego County
Actually, I am not such a huge Hillary fan. I don't worship the ground she walks on or anything. I just understand that the American public will never vote for a self-proclaimed Socialist. And that is exactly what the Republicans would have drilled into everyone's brain 24/7 between the primaries and the election. If a left-wing Democrat who has never called himself a Socialist runs in 2020, I would be happy to support him. I always have supported progressive Democrats in primaries, but always supported the primary winner in the election because the Republicans are always regressive goons.

As for Hillary, I underestimated the misogyny of the American public. When White women come out in droves to vote for a scumbag like Trump rather than vote for a woman, we have a real self-hate problem here. I expected that from a lot of men, but I didn't realize women hate women that much.

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#305603 - 02/17/18 04:08 AM Re: Round Table for January, 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
Spag-hetti Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1662
Loc: Middle, USA
Quote:
PIA said:
I expected that from a lot of men, but I didn't realize women hate women that much.


Excellent observation. I'm a woman. I've observed that behavior among women.

Every time a woman is a success, other women have to say to themselves, "OK, being a woman isn't the reason I'm failing." And, unfortunately, for some women, it then goes to, "So I hate her guts; she probably cheated."

So many women I have known measure their worth by their significant man's yardstick. And somehow they feel antagonism towards other women who might be doing it better.

Don't make me look this up, but remember when Hillary declared her candidacy and Michele Bachmann came out with a statement saying "It isn't time ..."? Why did MB think it wasn't time? Because she dropped (or fell) out of her run for president. Saying that it wasn't time was an excuse for her loss. It wasn't her; it was all women.

I'm pretty sure I didn't get that across like I wanted to. But I've seen it and it is hard to express. And be politically correct.


Edited by Spag-hetti (02/17/18 04:26 AM)
Edit Reason: Needed space
_________________________
Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#305604 - 02/17/18 04:37 AM Re: Round Table for January, 2018 [Re: Spag-hetti]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13420
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Spag-hetti
Quote:
PIA said:
I expected that from a lot of men, but I didn't realize women hate women that much.


Excellent observation. I'm a woman. I've observed that behavior among women.

Every time a woman is a success, other women have to say to themselves, "OK, being a woman isn't the reason I'm failing." And, unfortunately, for some women, it then goes to, "So I hate her guts; she probably cheated."

So many women I have known measure their worth by their significant man's yardstick. And somehow they feel antagonism towards other women who might be doing it better.

Don't make me look this up, but remember when Hillary declared her candidacy and Michele Bachmann came out with a statement saying "It isn't time ..."? Why did MB think it wasn't time? Because she dropped (or fell) out of her run for president. Saying that it wasn't time was an excuse for her loss. It wasn't her; it was all women.

I'm pretty sure I didn't get that across like I wanted to. But I've seen it and it is hard to express. And be politically correct.


Thank you for clearing that up.
I've been suspecting it for a while because you never engage in any of the dumb macho posturing.
You're one smart cookie alright.

I wasn't a Hillary fan for the simple reason that I just thought Bernie was better and I didn't care how many times he referred to himself as a socialist. What annoyed me is, he refused to join the Dems, something he should have done years ago. But I tooked mah chances and ah wuz wrong.
I don't hate Hillary, I just liked the old guy better.
P.J. O'Rourke even supported her.
He said, "She's wrong on everything but she is wrong within normal parameters"...high praise from a Republican columnist.

So when Bernie got crushed, I voted for her, figuring she wasn't so terrible and might even be pretty good.
Unfortunately too many stayed home and sulked.
Which is one reason we wound up with Trump.

We couldn't even keep our slim Senate majority, just that alone might have stopped the hemorrhaging we're seeing today.

And that right there, is 100% our fault, not Hillary's, not Bernie's not anyone else's...OUR fault.
We allowed our slim majority to slip away.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#305607 - 02/17/18 09:35 AM Re: Round Table for January, 2018 [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16382
As Chris Hayes put it last night, "there was a third party running," too. Having seen Mueller's indictment, yesterday, I now believe Putin's efforts were fruitful enough. Yes, Trump "won" the Electoral College, but only because of cheating. He only got 71,000 extra votes in three States. We can't fix it, now (just like 2000), but we shouldn't kid ourselves, either. There were millions of uncast ballots that would have changed the outcome. Maybe 2018 will be different, but somehow I don't think so.

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#305609 - 02/17/18 04:20 PM Re: Round Table for January, 2018 [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41066
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


I think that getting Facebook and Twitter to stop engaging Russian bots would be a tremendous start. Hmm
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#305611 - 02/17/18 05:02 PM Re: Round Table for January, 2018 [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13420
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
As Chris Hayes put it last night, "there was a third party running," too. Having seen Mueller's indictment, yesterday, I now believe Putin's efforts were fruitful enough. Yes, Trump "won" the Electoral College, but only because of cheating. He only got 71,000 extra votes in three States. We can't fix it, now (just like 2000), but we shouldn't kid ourselves, either. There were millions of uncast ballots that would have changed the outcome. Maybe 2018 will be different, but somehow I don't think so.


But AGAIN, WE the voters did not and WOULD NOT even bother to help preserve any vestige of a Democratic majority anywhere in Congress.
That is NOT the Electoral College, that is NOT Russian interference, that is NOT Bernie v. Hillary or vice versa.

Sorry, but THAT boils down to LACK of voter turnout on the Democratic side, because the only thing that would have preserved our slim majority in the Senate is voters going to the polls and saving the seats we had, and maybe adding a few more.
We did not do that.
So, even if we wound up with Trump, at least we would have had a majority in the Senate to stop the hemorrhaging.

I keep saying it and it keeps getting ignored:
That scene in Ghostbusters where the fire marshall is warned to NOT shut down the "containment grid". The marshall prevails, the grid is shut down and all of the hobgoblins, ghosts and evil spirits go rushing out the top of the old Ghostbuster headquarters building and go sweeping through the city on a maniacal spree.

That is exactly what Republicans winning both chambers in Congress looked like, and don't doubt for one moment that they were shocked and orgasmically happy when they saw the results.

We did this to ourselves!
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#305612 - 02/17/18 05:50 PM Re: Round Table for January, 2018 [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Jesus on a donkey strapped to a Budda Jeff,
With all the reporting on the grift, hubris and incompetency coming from that turd of a campaign, how is it that you reached the conclusion that it's the voters fault?
The mismanagement of DNC monies, the cronyism and racketeering of the DCCC. State party chairmen screaming for funding and 'how bout a coupla yard signs while your at it?!' . That organization gamed the primary, ran a board room suite candidate who could take Goldman money but couldn't get behind a $15/hr. Minimum wage but could maybe do $12.50/hr.
A major overhaul and realignment is what's needed in the party right now. Your not going to make that happen by blaming the voters for not falling in line for these third way democrats. Put the blame where it should be. Things have shifted dramatically in my district from financing to endorsing. All being done around the corporatist democratic leadership. They're losers who don't believing in anything but their rent seeking portfolios and incrementalism.

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#305613 - 02/17/18 06:43 PM Re: Round Table for January, 2018 [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Online   content

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14422
Loc: Florida
Quote:
A major overhaul and realignment is what's needed in the party right now.

Well, yeah, but it's not gonna happen so you might as well sit home and not vote until the party comes around to your way of thinking.

Me, I'm gonna vote for the Democrat no matter who it is. Bernie...Hillary...whoever. I don't give a rat's ass as long as it's not a Republican.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#305614 - 02/17/18 06:59 PM Re: Round Table for January, 2018 [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
A major overhaul and realignment is what's needed in the party right now.

Well, yeah, but it's not gonna happen so you might as well sit home and not vote until the party comes around to your way of thinking.

Me, I'm gonna vote for the Democrat no matter who it is. Bernie...Hillary...whoever. I don't give a rat's ass as long as it's not a Republican.

Who said anything about sitting home and waiting for the party to come around knocking ?
This is a participatory effort and it's smart to understand what the obstacles are. This is why there has been an energized mobilization at the street level and the candidates in our district are seeking the support. There's now a funding mechanism that is working outside the corrupt party finance racket. The list goes on.
Schlepping it down to the polls for whatever skunked beer boardroom candidate that could buy their way into the party has given us the situation we have today. Doing the same thing doesn't sound very productive for what's needed now.

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