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#305680 - 02/21/18 11:09 AM How Many?
NW Ponderer Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16105
I grew up in a small town in Kansas - Leawood, population (now) 31,000, although it was much smaller then. From there I moved to Black Jack, Missouri. Population (then), 3,500. Imagine if one day every resident of either of those towns was killed. (Pick any reason you like.) What do you think our country would do about that?

On December 7, 1941, (a date that will love in infamy) 2,403 Americans were killed. We went to war. On September 11, 2001, 2,977 people were killed. We went to war. On February 15, 1898, 266 died. We went to war. August 2, 1964, nobody died, but a Navy Destroyer was attacked and we went to war.

In 2017, 600 people were killed in mass shootings of 13,000 homicides by firearm (and 21,000 suicides). Nothing was done. So far in 2018, 90 mass murderers, no action. Since 2012 (Sandy Hook massacre), more than 1,875 deaths in 1,624 mass shootings. (Citation .) Nothing has been done. In every incident a semi-automatic firearm was used. An average of more than 11,000 Americans die each year from firearm homicides, twice the current population of Black Jack, Missouri. More than 33,000 firearm deaths, more than the population of Leawood, Kansas. More than half of the population of the United States lives in towns smaller than 25,000 souls. Every year the population of one of those towns is wiped off the map by semi-automatic firearms.

What's wrong with this picture?
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

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#305681 - 02/21/18 04:10 PM Re: How Many? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 323
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Everything else aside, the only difference between paragraph 2 and 3; paragraph two was done to us, paragraph three we are doing it to ourselves. Now it should be easy to identify and stop the more insane of the two.


Do not misinterpret my post; I am pro 2nd amendment and I want, have always wanted, strong gun control and restrictions. I do not own any weapons. Like a few here, I understand the purpose of and the reason for weapons. I have used them for their intended purpose and reason. Military grade or based weapons and ammo do not belong in the hands of civilians.


Edited by Ujest Shurly (02/21/18 04:11 PM)
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#305693 - 02/21/18 10:40 PM Re: How Many? [Re: Ujest Shurly]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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The Mental Health System Can’t Stop Mass Shooters https://nyti.ms/2BGFcrR The Mental Health System Can’t Stop Mass Shooters - OP ed, NYT.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#305701 - 02/22/18 01:53 AM Re: How Many? [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7773
Loc: North San Diego County
paywall: Only for NYTimes subscribers. Maybe you could excerpt a few fair-use quotes?
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#305704 - 02/22/18 12:40 PM Re: How Many? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16105
Quote:
The mental health system doesn’t identify most of these people because they don’t come in to get care. And even if they do, laws designed to preserve the civil liberties of people with mental illness place limits on what treatments can be imposed against a person’s will.
.... The reason the mental health system fails to prevent mass shootings is that mental illness is rarely the cause of such violence. Even if all potential mass shooters did get psychiatric care, there is no reliable cure for angry young men who harbor violent fantasies. And the laws intended to stop the mentally ill from buying guns are too narrow and easily sidestepped; people like Nikolas Cruz and my patient are unlikely to qualify.

Instead of hoping that imposing mental health treatment on everyone who shows “red flags” will put an end to mass shootings, we should focus on ways to put some distance between these young men and their guns.
Sorry, I forgot to note that. I will, later.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#305705 - 02/22/18 02:05 PM Re: How Many? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16105
Florida lawmakers refuse to debate assault rifles, but say porn is dangerous - CNN. What they failed to realize is that assault weapons are porn. There's a whole category of "gun porn". It's all over the internet. And I'm not talking about naked girls shooting guns (although there's plenty of that, too), but people who fetishise weaponry. Like militia groups.

I spent 30 years of my life training with, and preparing to use, and using assault weapons. There is no legitimate civilian use for them. But people "get off" on handling them and fantasize about them. I do too!

There are those who argue that there is no definition of assault weapons (they lie) "An assault rifle is a selective-fire rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine"; that they are "cosmetic" differences between ARs and hunting rifles (also a lie) and that they are impossible to regulate (more lies). They even promote fictions like "AR" doesn't mean "assault rifle" (Which, while technically true, belies the "common understanding" in modern usage). But they don't really fool anyone, even themselves.

I understand the allure, and the fantasies. But let's be intellectually honest - you know it when you see it. Assault rifles are sexy. They're metal and plastic Viagra. And they're deadly dangerous, like snuff porn. And when people play out those fantasies, other people die.

Take away the picatinny rail, the pistol grip handle, the box magazine and see how many get sold. It's hard to play out your fantasy with a generic rifle. And those Florida legislators know it. That's why they voted before the kids got there.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#305713 - 02/23/18 01:21 AM Re: How Many? [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7773
Loc: North San Diego County
U suspect the reason we have so many of these is shooter video games. The real problem isn't the pistol grip, etc. It's people fantasizing about them. Imagining themselves as a heroic (but tragic) figure, taking down hundreds of enemies on a suicide mission. They know they are going to die, in all likelihood. Maybe we need to show on national TV and the internet life in prison that school shooters serve, including all the times they are raped, stuck with shivs, etc. and guards just laugh. So these punks know what they are really signing up for.

If you want to go out in a blaze of glory, attack a police station with your AR-15 instead. Call ahead so they can have enough people there.

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#305716 - 02/23/18 02:33 AM Re: How Many? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Online   content

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14108
Loc: Florida
They've got video games all over the world. They've got mental illness all over the world. There are young angry men everywhere.
But they don't have these mass shootings.

Whatever could the difference be? Couldn't possibly easy access to military style firearms could it...
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#305717 - 02/23/18 02:35 AM Re: How Many? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Online   content

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14108
Loc: Florida
Quote:
It's people fantasizing about them. Imagining themselves as a heroic (but tragic) figure, taking down hundreds of enemies on a suicide mission.

I think all that fantasizing is what NWP meant by "gun porn".
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#305720 - 02/23/18 09:20 AM Re: How Many? [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7773
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
all that fantasizing


And I think that's what young school shooters do: Fantasize.
_________________________
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#305722 - 02/23/18 01:15 PM Re: How Many? [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6449
Loc: Highlands, Tx
maybe i am weird or maybe i haven't thought about this enough

i don't see guns as some fantasy. i feel it is a part of something primordial (at least with me) and is included with other activities like throwing rocks, firing nail guns, shooting bb guns, pellet guns, etc and not necessarily at anything in particular ... maybe something humans as animals do ... an extension of one's self? an extension of some added value as more powerful ... do some people have a need for more power?

as an aside do conservative have this fantasy and liberals do not?

if i had a fantasy about any of those i would be fondling one of them ... sorry does nothing for me
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#305725 - 02/23/18 03:51 PM Re: How Many? [Re: rporter314]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16105
It wasn't intentional, but I had the opportunity to see parts of Dana Loesch's and Wayne LaPierre's CPAC speeches yesterday. OMG these people really are off the rails. If you can (stomach it), is try to find them. This is beyond fanaticism, folks. It's derangement. I'm not exaggerating invoking Hitler here. Talk about "danger to themselves or others". Hoo boy!

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#305734 - 02/24/18 01:19 AM Re: How Many? [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6449
Loc: Highlands, Tx
i saw the cnn loesch interview ... lapierre has been a nut case for a while

i am still waiting for lapierre to tell the families of victims the 2nd amendment right of criminals, violent people, irresponsible people, mentally unstable people to own guns is more important than the right to life of their children. i think conservatives like to use the phrase "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" as 3 essential rights of citizens from the DOI and yet the DOI does not mention guns. If life is so important to the Founders, why is the sale of so many guns, which does impact my life, not controlled?

notice Mr Trump sat oblivious to the Australian PM's statement regarding their control of auto and semi auto weapons which essentially ended most of the gun related deaths.

i predict (and it doesn't take a genius for this) nothing will be done
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#305776 - 02/26/18 07:08 PM Re: How Many? [Re: rporter314]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16105
Originally Posted By: rporter314
i predict (and it doesn't take a genius for this) nothing will be done
SADLY, I concur. This argument is not about causality. It is not about policy. It is not about rationality. It is about fear. Not even rational fear.

The Gun Lobby wants people to fear something that has never happened, and is unlikely to happen. It is not something even being asked for. They have one job, and that is to sell guns. If people are not afraid, they don't buy guns. Statistically, fewer people in America are less afraid, and thus gun sales are to fewer and fewer really afraid Americans.

Rational people are afraid, too. They are afraid of real things that are happening to real people, and they want to do something about it. The proposals are modest: Bump Stocks - should be illegal, but not interpreted that way. Las Vegas demonstrated that in spades. Background checks are not reliable - Sandy Hook and Parkland demonstrated that. Armed officers are not sufficient - every incident has demonstrated that.

What is effective is strict gun regulation. Everyone knows that. Especially the gun lobby. That strikes the fear of god into their puny little hearts.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#305823 - 03/02/18 12:51 PM Re: How Many? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16105
The number of Americans buying guns has fallen dramatically over the last few decades, despite sales spiking over the last decade (when that black fellow was in office). It appears, however, that we've reached a saturation point. Gun manufacturers are in trouble.

Remington has filed for bankruptcy. Smith and Wesson sales are off 40%, and stock prices have tanked (down 50% in a month). Smith & Wesson Gun Sales Are in Free Fall. It's true across the board: Gun stocks slammed as companies and funds distance themselves from industry.

After Dick’s, Only One Major Retailer Is Still Selling Semi-Automatic Assault Rifles.
Quote:

In 2006, Walmart stopped selling guns at roughly one-third of its stores, citing “diminished customer relevancy.”
Walmart actually stopped selling assault weapons in 2015

The NRA's gravy train is reaching is terminal. Even the gun lobby's main lobbying group, the National Shooting Sports Foundation, is losing steam. Maybe we're turning a corner?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#305825 - 03/02/18 05:25 PM Re: How Many? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Online   content

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14108
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Maybe we're turning a corner?

Maybe even when government fails to legislate change it can come about naturally.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#305826 - 03/02/18 08:05 PM Re: How Many? [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6449
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Not sure these stats are good indicators or predictors.

For instance ... NICS checks are up, which suggests either more new guns are sold or more old guns are traded/sold between people. So S&W sales are down, but if you notice gun sales always go down when a Republican is elected (the NRA has sold the paranoid the delusion Pres Obama is still going to get their guns) or H&K or Glock are selling more guns.

If fear is a driving force for the paranoia of conservative gun owners, then I would expect them to continue buying even if they have 20 guns (one for each finger and toe). Consider that 50% of guns owned are owned by just 3% of people. Will that 3% continue to support the gun industry? These folks live in extreme fear the evil empire is after them, so my conclusion is yes.

However we may have reached an inflection point suggested by your stats i.e. the market may be driving the direction of the discussion.

I am a lot hesitant about declaring a victory when only one battle has been fought. I need to see substantive legislation and some good stats for a couple of years before I can check the rear view mirror and say 2018 was the year in which gun sanity came calling on Americans.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#305828 - 03/02/18 11:19 PM Re: How Many? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16105
I agree that it's too early to celebrate, but it is interesting that the market is reflecting public shifts in attitude. The number of gun owners has been declining since the 70s, but not gun sales. The proportion of the population owning guns is about the same as supporters of Trump. I think the market has actually reached the saturation point. Now they're just moving around.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#306460 - 04/22/18 07:22 PM Re: How Many? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16105
"Four people were killed and four others injured when a man naked from the waist down and wielding an assault-style rifle... " But, it's not the gun...

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#306462 - 04/22/18 08:14 PM Re: How Many? [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2058
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=nratv

nratv might amuse (if you haven't watched it before)

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