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#305910 - 03/10/18 03:31 AM Re: Gun Control [Re: rporter314]
Spag-hetti Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1662
Loc: Middle, USA
Ok, and so now a gunman has invaded a veterans home in Yountville, California.

Not much info right now, except gunfire was exchanged before the gunman took three hostages.

What a nightmare!

Gaia forbid that this event should be politicized, especially by lil ol me. BUT, if the old folks get as PO'd as those Parkland kids and they join together, NRA better watch out.

I know I'm pretty PO'd.
_________________________
Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#305918 - 03/10/18 07:18 AM Re: Gun Control [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
Sadly, the three women hostages were killed. It raises the point that it is not all about schools. What about concert venues, theatres, sports fields, churches?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#305942 - 03/11/18 06:09 PM Re: Gun Control [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
This is not a hope-inspiring time, but I have some right now. Saddened as I am by the latest tragedy, even in Florida, the NRA-infused Republican legislature and governor were able to take positive, rational gun control actions (not much, but some). I hope - no, pray - that other jurisdictions will be similarly emboldened and begin to pass sensible reforms - and that the NRA's reign of terror can be brought to a close.

I am a gun owner, and in some respects, a gun advocate, but I'm also a thinking, rational, moral human being and I'm incensed by the carnage. We need to take steps to bring it under control. Universal background checks, longer waiting periods, and banning, or at least restriction, of certain equipment (bump stocks, assault weapons and extended magazines) are reasonable steps. Reality must trump fevered fantasy.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#305949 - 03/12/18 05:20 PM Re: Gun Control [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
Know who's 'afraid of the NRA'? Donald Trump.

And he will Lie, Lie, Lie about it until he's orange in the face, then lie some more.

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#305950 - 03/12/18 10:35 PM Re: Gun Control [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7886
Loc: North San Diego County
Well, they do have a lot of guns and a huge supply of the kind of people who have talked about assassinating a President. I suppose if a President's actions could be interpreted as a betrayal after they gave him $20 million+, there would be quite a few fanatics prepared to take him out.

I'm not saying the majority of NRA members are not good, responsible people who would never do such a thing. I'm just saying that an organization that goes out of their way to attract the insane is bound to have some members who are insane. 1 in 10000 out of 5 million members is 500 people!

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#306134 - 03/26/18 09:49 PM Re: Gun Control [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
Santorum: Instead of calling for gun laws, kids should take CPR classes - CNN. "How about kids instead of looking to someone else to solve their problem, do something about maybe taking CPR classes or trying to deal with situations that when there is a violent shooter that you can actually respond to that," Santorum said on CNN's "State of the Union."

While patently ridiculous, and really egregiously stupid (par for Santorum), it is emblematic of Republican solutions to gun violence: they are reactive, not proactive, and no "solution" at all. Santorum, Trump, really all the NRA-backed solutions allow the shooting to take place, first. Even their mantrais "shoot back": "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun". Well, no. What stops a bad guy with a gun is not having a gun in the first place.

Sensible gun control solutions provided by the kids of Parkland:
Assault Weapons Ban - keeps the most deadly weapons off the market. More than half of the most deadly mass shootings involved Assault weapons (as defined in the 1994 legislation). More Than Half of Mass Shooters Used Assault Weapons and High-Capacity Magazines - Mother Jones. Moreover, most of them used "high capacity" (more than 10 round) magazines, even those using pistols.
Magazine size restrictions (heck, magazines at all). Most mass shootings are stopped during reloads. Here is 1 correlation between state gun laws and mass shootings
Quote:
An analysis performed for CNN found that states that have enacted magazine restrictions are associated with fewer mass shooting events.
"Whether a state has a large capacity ammunition magazine ban is the single best predictor of the mass shooting rate in that state, " said Michael Siegel, a community health science professor at Boston University, who conducted the analysis. These states are associated with a 63% lower rate of mass shootings, according to his analysis.

Expanded background checks - Fewer mass shootings occur in states with more background checks: report - the Guardian. It's pretty simple. If you conduct background checks, you catch a LOT of people who shouldn't possess a firearm. This applies beyond "mass shootings": "The gun control group made special note of the link between domestic violence and shootings, finding that there were 59 such shootings in states without background checks for all handgun sales and only 17 in states with full checks."

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#306136 - 03/26/18 10:55 PM Re: Gun Control [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7886
Loc: North San Diego County
I heard a piece on the Gun Trace unit of the ATFE the other day. They have a backlog that was so many boxes it was starting to buckle the floor. So they had to bring in shipping containers to hold all the request boxes. They are up to 28 containers now.

What makes it so slow is that they are forbidden by law from creating any sort of searchable database of either guns or gun owners, out of some 2nd Amendment fanatics' fears that such a database would be the first step in the government coming to take their guns. But we NEED the government to be able to efficiently take away guns from certain classes of people. Forbidding those databases is exactly why we have such an impossible task.

First and foremost we need a law that says it is the federal government's duty to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, people on probation, user's of certain drugs like anti-psychotics and anti-depressants, domestic abusers, and anybody with a history of making deadly threats. And they get to use any reasonable means to accomplish that, including databases and strict reporting rules.

I have no problem at all with hunters having shotguns and long rifles, recreational target shooters having their 22 gauge rifles and pistols, diamond dealers having their concealed handguns, etc., etc., etc.. There are many people who have a good reason to own certain guns. And there are also many people who should not.

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#306137 - 03/27/18 01:20 AM Re: Gun Control [Re: jgw]
Spag-hetti Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1662
Loc: Middle, USA
As a teacher, I was a mandated reporter, which means if I had reason to suspect a child was being abused, I was required to report it. Otherwise, I was in danger of losing my job, my license, a chunk of money, and/or my freedom. In addition to the lack of modern systems for processing background checks, there is also the problem of inconsistent reporting ... even from the military. When a person commits a crime using a legally acquired gun, and we find out that he/she had a record of domestic abuse, mental illness, etc., then whoever should have reported that person should face severe consequences.

And the same with those responsible for processing and disseminating that information. That information needs to be timely and correct.
_________________________
Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#306140 - 03/27/18 02:02 AM Re: Gun Control [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7886
Loc: North San Diego County
We could actually do the "No Buy" list first. There are no prohibitions on keeping a good up-to-date database for quick background checks. There is such a federal database that gun sellers can check, but the problem is that it is so incomplete. We need a better mandatory reporting system, with penalties for not reporting. We need a law that this is not subject to HIPAA rules, so patients that need to be on the list get reported.

This would prevent people on the list from buying guns, but then we need the other half, which is existing gun ownership when somebody is added to the "No Buy" list. That's why we need a federal list of guns and their owners. So police can go and pick them up. And I have an answer for anybody who claims that "Government can have my guns when they pry them from my cold dead hands.":

Okay, that can be arranged.

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#306148 - 03/27/18 04:10 PM Re: Gun Control [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
One contrary point I need to raise. Another problem with the federal background system is that it is severely underfunded. The result is that appeals from errors take more than a year.

On more than one occasion a domestic partner, or spouse (or former) has been unable to obtain a weapon for self defense and been killed by their abuser. (The spouse of a banned person is also barred because they live in the same household.) That is an underreported issue for a reason. No one wants to take ownership of it.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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