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#306110 - 03/24/18 04:03 PM lethal force
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2131
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
There is an ongoing problem with police killings. I wonder. If there is a bear in a tree, a loose elephant, a cougar in the neighborhood, etc. The answer is easy and humanitarian - the shoot the animal with a tranquilizer dart and take said animal into custody. We all know how this is done. I suspect we all also know that, in isolated instances, the subject reacts poorly to the tranquilizer and dies. If the situation involves police with a gun, however, the outcome is almost always lethal. As far as I know no police even have access to a weapon that shoots tranquilizer darts.

My wondering stems for the apparent decision to kill humans who present a danger, and not to kill animals that present a danger. Seems to be a bit odd to me. The winner in all of this seems (suprise!) the manufacturers that make guns that shoot bullets.

Thoughts?

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#306139 - 03/27/18 01:41 AM Re: lethal force [Re: jgw]
Spag-hetti Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1662
Loc: Middle, USA
Bottom line, of course, is whether you want to stun, tranquilize, wound, kill or obliterate, the NRA has a gun for you.
_________________________
Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#306189 - 03/30/18 06:48 PM Re: lethal force [Re: jgw]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6505
Loc: USA
The issue is that these people are afraid. The police, who live with violence and are trained to stem violence, are now in shoot first mode. You can blame the police, or the NRA, or the conservative movement all you want. The real issue is that the police do not feel safe enough to allow each situation to play out.

If I were a cop today, I would find a new job, because right now there is no protection for being a cop. People are OK with shooting at you, the public are OK in blaming you and there are enough of them screwing up that the public is within their rights to be critical of them.

No doubt about it, it sucks to be a cop in 2018.

Tim
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
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#306198 - 03/30/18 11:20 PM Re: lethal force [Re: Ma_Republican]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8887
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Lots of people are afraid - that's one of the bennies of a having psychotic gun culture.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#306199 - 03/31/18 03:15 AM Re: lethal force [Re: jgw]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6525
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Conservatives live in the perpetual state of fear government/ethnics are out to get them. The answer for their paranoia is the cold blue steel of an AR.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#306200 - 03/31/18 01:44 PM Re: lethal force [Re: Ma_Republican]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 356
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
The issue is that these people are afraid. The police, who live with violence and are trained to stem violence, are now in shoot first mode. You can blame the police, or the NRA, or the conservative movement all you want. The real issue is that the police do not feel safe enough to allow each situation to play out.

If I were a cop today, I would find a new job, because right now there is no protection for being a cop. People are OK with shooting at you, the public are OK in blaming you and there are enough of them screwing up that the public is within their rights to be critical of them.

No doubt about it, it sucks to be a cop in 2018.

Tim



I agree with you MA, police live with violence every day of their lives and much of that violence is directed at them intentionally or un-intentionally. Because of this fact, police are given an extraordinary power - the power to decided when they must take a life.

Even the military does not have that power, they receive far more training and practice in the use of force than police and yet the military is not permitted, in fact forbidden unless special permission is given, to carry or use a weapon in public in a non-war scenario.

So, do you not agree that because of the extraordinary power given, that it is incumbent upon police to insure that its use is a use of last resort and that the subject is in fact a threat?
_________________________
Vote 2018; give meaning and honor to those who made sure you have the right to vote.

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#306201 - 03/31/18 04:27 PM Re: lethal force [Re: Ujest Shurly]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16233
Down the middle:

This incident was not white-on-black, nor is the situation black and white. There are two precipitating forces at work here: racial injustice, and militarization of policing.

The cops, in this case, were responding to information they were being fed in real time. They were called to a vehicle prowling complaint (not just "vandalism") when a homeowner confronted the burglar (breaking and entering after dark) who fled. A police helicopter on the scene radioed that the suspect had broken a neighbor's back door with a tool. (Evidence at the scene supported this supposition, although the tool was not found). They were directed to that location and Clark was observed jumping the back fence. The time between initial encounter - "Hey! Show me your hands!
Stop! Stop!" - and fatal shooting is 17 seconds. The Police Shooting of Stephon Clark Is Deeply Problematic - David French, National Review. We ask an awful lot of our officers in seconds-long bursts.

I agree, however, with Mr. French's assessment
Quote:
When we speak about police shootings, we often focus too much on the most basic question — was the shooting lawful — rather than the far more complex and ultimately more consequential question. Was the shooting proper? Is this how we want to train police to respond? Is this how we should conduct escalation of force in an American neighborhood?
Why was it necessary to accelerate the decision-making process in this situation? Why escalate, rather than deescalate?

There are too many questionable shooting incidents for it not to be a concern. But it is important to remember, in my view, that this is an artifact of a larger societal problem. Like it or not, one root of the problem goes back to the history of slavery in this nation, and the awful post-slavery history that continues to affect the country 150 years after slavery ended. Why we still don't grasp racial economic inequality Kai Ryssdal.
Quote:
for every $100 of wealth that a white family has accumulated a black family has only five dollars and a few cents. And the same gap has existed for 50 years.
(Quoting Tracy Jan of The Washington Post) (also, Racial inequalities in wages, income, and wealth show that MLK’s work remains unfinished - Economic Policy Institute.)
Quote:
Americans — especially wealthy white Americans — greatly over estimate how much progress the country has made towards racial economic equality. Basically people think that black Americans are making a lot more, have accumulated a lot more household wealth than they actually have.


This tenacious inability to see things that are directly in front of us has allowed these conditions to persist for generations. Until we address the underlying issues of racial inequality and misperception of police authority, these incidents will recur with regularity. The details will change, but the story will not.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#306204 - 03/31/18 08:45 PM Re: lethal force [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2131
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Again, its pretty simple for me - arm the police with tranquilizer rifles instead of guns that kill. Of course that may not even solve the problem because if one cop shoots then they all pile on and shoot shoot too. This means, 2 cops get shot twice with tranquilizer, 3 - get shot 3 times. This is another one I just do not understand. In this case I think there were 3 cops shooting and the guy caught over 20 bullets (most of which were in his back)

I also think that rifles were used as my experience, with the police, is that if they are shooting pistols they rarely hit anything that is more than 10 feet away. This would also mean that they had to raise their rifles, sight in the culprit and then shoot. On the other hand, if they were close to the victim, and still thought he had a gun, that is an entirely different thing.

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#306205 - 03/31/18 09:04 PM Re: lethal force [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6525
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
a larger societal problem

Unfortunately for those of us who want real solutions to real problems, conservatives fail to see the societal problems of which you type. Instead they see a racial difference which inherently drives their closed minded narrative.

Until there is acceptance of the existence of fundamental ethnic divisions in this country there will be no progress. I thought in the 60's it would take 3 generations of education to reach the maximum inflection point. Man, was I wrong.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#306207 - 04/01/18 12:47 AM Re: lethal force [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16233
Two cops, pistols only. 10 rounds each. Short range. 40% hits. About average, if a little high (close range). I believe both officers were black, as was the victim.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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