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by pondering_it_all
Illinois celebrates first official 'Barack Obama Day'
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Historic Corruption
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Returning rationality to public policy
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Despicable, lying liars turning on each other
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Things not considered much
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Ohio 12 and Kansas Governor
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Jonah Goldberg: Farce as Tragedy
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Trump's legal woes
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08/08/18 06:21 PM
Lt. Joe Kenda Is Still Adjusting to Being the (Giant) Face of a TV Network
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The moral case for removing the President
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Teenager at San Diego Padres Game Mortified as Mom Starts Dancing in the Stands
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Russell Hantz on Australian Survivor
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Mueller's Trial Run
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08/05/18 04:06 PM
John Stossel: The War on Tipping
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Happy Birthday, United States Coast Guard
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Ghost guns
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#306238 - 04/04/18 01:23 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8846
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
What does the term "perjury trap" actually mean in relation to Mueller interviewing Trump?

It means that Trump is such an inveterate liar that he will probably perjure himself. How is it a "trap", though? That's right, it's not. "Perjury trap" is just a way of turning the blame for Trump being a liar onto the person he is lying to.

The Upside Down...
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"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#306241 - 04/04/18 06:40 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16100
The "perjury trap" is Trump's mouth. His lawyers have urged him to shut it.

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#306245 - 04/04/18 09:08 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: pdx rick]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6447
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I am going to argue this again. There can be almost no chance of a perjury trap interviewing Mr Trump and here is why.

As a narcissist, Mr Trump lives in a delusional world. He believes that world is real. Thus almost anything he says which in any way impinges on that delusional world is suspect and of no value. SP Mueller has to devise questions which are invariant of the real world and Mr Trump's delusional world to be of any value and to therefore spring a trap.

I don't think this is as easy as it would appear to be for folks who live in the real world.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#306248 - 04/05/18 05:29 AM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7763
Loc: North San Diego County
I don't think insanity lets him off the hook. If Trump says objectively factual things that are not true under oath that is perjury. Insanity may be an excuse, but it is still perjury. If he's so insane he can't tell reality from fantasy, then he is not fit to serve and his cabinet or Congress must start an Amendment 25 fitness action.

And we can be sure that Mueller will ask him simple objectively factual questions, not questions that ask for an opinion.

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#306249 - 04/05/18 12:29 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: pondering_it_all]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6447
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Mr Trump is not insane ... psychotic .... schizophrenic. He has a personality disorder which creates delusions about himself which he believes.

Example: If SP Mueller asks about the size of the inauguration crowd and Mr Trump says, largest to ever attend, has he committed perjury or is he stating what he believes to be true in his delusion? That is objective and easily proved. However if the questions are did you fire Dir Comey to obstruct an investigation, in his opinion, in a delusional world created by his personality disorder, he would say no. Is that perjury?

The question have to be invariant which is to say they must be provable whether in the real world or in his delusional world.

I think this is harder than you realize.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#306251 - 04/05/18 03:16 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: rporter314]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16100
I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but I think it unlikely that Mueller will find evidence that Trump directly engaged in collusion with Russia. That the campaign did so is almost beyond dispute, at this point. Certainly individuals coordinated information with Russian operatives. The whole operation was infested, and Trump was aware, I'm pretty sure. But nobody really cared one way or the other.

In fact, I'd wager that if Trump was paid to spread Russian propaganda, he would have taken the deal. But Putin didn't need to do that, he had plenty of operatives in the campaign already.

What Mueller will find is a reckless attitude toward Russia, deep corruption going back decades, and a plethora of slimy characters. More importantly, I think, a constant effort to thwart investigation of the links, starting with Trump himself. Nunes was involved in that as well. I don't know, however, if he'll find an indictable offense.

My hope is that the Trump Organization's corrupt practices, and Trump's tax records, will finally see the light of day. There will be further indictments - maybe even of Jared, but I don't expect impeachment proceedings.

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#306275 - 04/07/18 02:19 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16100
The real reason for oligarch sanctions from the Trump administration: keeping witnesses away from Bob Mueller. The Mueller team has recently intercepted at least two oligarchs entering the United States, serving subpoenas on them, searching their phones and interviewing them.The Russia Investigations: On The Hunt For Duffel Bags Full Of Cash - npr; Exclusive: Mueller's team questioning Russian oligarchs - CNN.

You can't question them if you can't get to them!

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#306276 - 04/07/18 04:53 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: pdx rick]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6447
Loc: Highlands, Tx
This could be valid
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#306353 - 04/11/18 02:07 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: rporter314]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16100
Trump's perceived persecution fuels unrest - CNN.

Here's the thing: people who've gotten away with criminality and shady behavior for years tend to think themselves invincible. Trump now finds himself vulnerable. The pile of skeletons in his closet is thick and high. His hubris is Shakespearean in scope, and he has, by habit, surrounded himself with equally shady characters - he "see himself" in them.

The reckoning is coming, and he knows it. Ironically, I think he'd have gotten away with it if not for his deep-seated personality flaws. He's had an obsequious Congress, sycophantic interference runners and enablers, and a fawning news NetworkPR operation supporting his every irrational move - but that has not been enough.

Unfortunately, the machinations will bring us the risk of Pence. I'm not sure which is worse.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#306369 - 04/12/18 06:40 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13223
Loc: Whittier, California
Pence is a survivable event if we manage to get majorities in both houses of Congress.
If not, then we brought it on ourselves by not doing our duty.
It's too easy to blame all of this on Trump and Trump supporters but we didn't even manage to preserve our thin Senate majority!

You know the old school thing about rape where you're supposed to just "lay back and enjoy it?" Yeah, that's pretty much what we did in 2016 and that is why we now have this sickening Trifecta of Trump Toadies.

It WAS avoidable. We could have HAD Bernie as chairman of the Senate Budget Committee. We could have HAD quite a few checks and balances.

But no, we laid back and enjoyed it.
Vote in November as if our lives depend on it because they just might.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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