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#306361 - 04/12/18 03:08 AM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7934
Loc: North San Diego County
I sure hope so. I don't want my declining years to be miserable. Maybe I need to move to Sweden?

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#306371 - 04/12/18 07:28 PM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 995
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
the kids are alright. They've got this.

I think you're right.


What good is it if we keep ignoring them and have lousy candidates?

Coulda Woulda Shoulda


Edited by chunkstyle (04/12/18 07:28 PM)

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#306373 - 04/12/18 09:06 PM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2143
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I have 3 kids and they are all over 50 years old. One thing I have noticed about them is that they, literally, are race and sex preference blind. They, literally, don't give a damn about that stuff. If anybody tries to talk to them about it they tend to look absolutely amazed that its even a subject of conversation. Of the three my son voted for Trump. I have not talked to him about that one but, from what I can gather, he is undergoing a bit of buyer's remorse and he has not changed his views on race or sex preference in the slightest. He runs a company that I used to have and his hiring practices reflect this complete disinterest in the two subjects. My daughters feel the same way (one is an accountant and the other works in a law office writing pleadings).

I have also noticed their friends also don't consider those two things to be of any lasting interest. So, just based on this, I think things have changed one generation from me. Then there are the grand children and they are absolutely liberal when it comes to race and sex preference. They REALLY don't care about that stuff!

I can go down another generation but it seems the same. Basically, much of the stuff many seem to care about (race and sex) just don't seem to take up all the room they did in my generation. I have no idea about entire classes but, as far as I can see, its much better down the line.

So, "The kids are alright. They've got this" is, as far as I can tell, spot on!!!!!

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#306379 - 04/13/18 03:07 PM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 995
I'd say that many who didn't see the outcome of the presidential election or the associated political landscape revealed are either living in a large metropolitan city or a medium town that's harboring a college, hospital or prison or a combination of the three. Clinton country basically. A bastion of neoliberalism democratic centrism, where identity politics are supported. Kudo's to your adult children JGW, that they no longer feel it appropriate to yell something racist or homophobic from their car windows. That's a triumph of sorts for the centrist Democrats.

Then there's racism in judicial sentencing and policing, debt traps, massive wealth inequality, wage theft on a grand scale, extraction capitalism that's put us on the brink of environmental collapse, ruinous military adventures and an economy in decline for most Americans.
We celebrate gay weddings while ignoring immense wealth inequality. Sexual stereotypes being broken while corporate crime goes unpunished.
What's insane is voting for horrid candidates that support the very policies that have gotten us here and then ponder if the country has somehow gone mad.

" Our goal is to make the beliefs, ideas, and governing approach of the new choice the dominant political thinking in America before this decade is out. Just as the New Deal shaped the political order for the industrial age, the new choice can define politics in the information age.

Our purpose is not to seek the middle of the road but to build a new road that leads beyond right and left to move America forward.

The industrial age is over; the old isms and the old ways don’t work anymore. Today, and in the months to come, we will put forth new answers and a new way of thinking which are based on the principle of inclusion and work for the greatest public good. We invite the American people to join our cause."

-Democratic Leadership Counsel 1991. Presided by Bill Clinton.

The 'Kids' wanted a return to new deal values as exemplified by Sanders. The 'Grownups' insisted on neoliberalism embodied in Clinton. The grownups got their brains broke with the result.



Edited by chunkstyle (04/13/18 03:11 PM)

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#306386 - 04/13/18 08:20 PM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2143
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Let me try again on this one. The United States has a two party political system. The theory is that we have a Right, Left and Middle and that voting, basically, tends towards the middle. All this talk about how left the left is and how right the right is just doesn't really make any sense as the choices are REALLY simple. I think its generally agreed that, historically, the left tends to capture more of the middle than the right.

The problem is that there is also a serious problems, in all factions, of actually taking time out to actually vote. In Washington state, for instance, ballots are mailed to the voters addresses. The voters, of that state, then have the onerous task of filling out the ballot and sending or delivering said ballot. That's it! The the last general primary election a whole 27% turned out and, in the last general election a whole 38% turned out. These are, incidentally, considered large turnouts! These are simple facts and these facts are not only discouraging but demonstrate a general failure of voters to actually vote! We ALL are aware of this one. When there is a vote virtually all the talk is how to get the damned voters off their butts and actually vote, irregardless of druther, party, or whatever.

I also suspect that much of this starts with school. I suspect, based on nothing, for instance, that the reason youth that can vote, don't has to do with schooling, and what and how, they are taught. Given the current youth political breakout that might, hopefully, change. Then there is the poor. The poor tend to also not vote. There is one simple fact and that is that the politicians know, exactly, who their voters are and they tend to pander to those that vote. I am a senior and senior tend to vote so we get stuff. Youth and the poor, on the other hand, do not vote and get screwed over. The problem, I think, is that they just don't understand, or believe, that voting helps them at all. That being said there is a simple, logical and provable fact, if you are in a group that votes you win, irregardless of party.

Then there is the other point where those that would naturally vote for the left (even if they are in the middle), and if the left is not waaaaay left. This means, basically, that if the left does it right they should win. That being said, the left usually presents the dullest candidates, rarely toots its own horn, etc. The right, on the other hand, constantly toots its own horn and its candidates tend to be more 'pretty' than the left. All this is, incidentally, my personal beliefs but I am wedded to none of it and will not get upset if anybody disagrees because this stuff is VERY personal to the individual.

So, yet again, when it comes to voting and politics what we get is, basically, what the voters chose, even those who never voted as they are just as responsible for what we have as them that did vote. What is really offensive is when a voter on the right, or the left, votes for the other side because they are upset about a single issue instead of paying attention. When you add that into the mix, wherein the vast majority can't even be bothered to vote at all, we are left with an insane system based on a lack of caring, a lack of understanding, lazyness, and ignorance. Its a wonder we even have a country and, if it continues, we won't for all that much longer.

It may also be of possible interest that there is another voting block that ALWAYS votes - immigrants. If they can get citizenship they will vote and the politicians are also well aware of that one.

I wish us ALL good luck!


Edited by jgw (04/13/18 08:22 PM)

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#306395 - 04/14/18 12:45 PM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 995
Lots to chew on here JGW,

Originally Posted By: jgw
The theory is that we have a Right, Left and Middle and that voting, basically, tends towards the middle. All this talk about how left the left is and how right the right is just doesn't really make any sense as the choices are REALLY simple. I think its generally agreed that, historically, the left tends to capture more of the middle than the right.


This part of your post is the most eyebrow raising for me. The Oberten window may be a more accurate way of describing our current state of politics rather than trying to define left or right or the degrees of separation between them. With that in mind, I would say that our political landscape has shifted to the right since 1980's weather it's a 'left' administration/congress or 'right'.
That Oberten window was wrenched back to the middle mainly due to one candidate.
There was immense dissatisfaction in the public mood with the status quo. IMO, much has to do with the acceptance of very bad ideas put into practice by both of the political parties with horrendous results. This has produced what we are seeing today. Voting for either party does not reduce the problems people are living with and one possible result of this is voter apathy.
You assume that voting for flavor #1 or flavor #1.1 will produce different outcomes with all social evidence over the last thirty years to the contrary.
The three part documentary by Adam Curtis starting with 'F#ck Off Buddy!' covers a lot of this ground. It basically explains how Game Theory from the cold war era was disseminated into political and economic spheres and gave birth to bad ideas shared by both political parties and leading economists today. I highly recommend you have a look:

[censored] Off Buddy!


Edited by chunkstyle (04/14/18 02:13 PM)

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#306407 - 04/14/18 09:41 PM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2143
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I was going to respond at length but changed my mind. I also watch a couple of the link you sent. As far as I can tell all the 'experts' continue to fail. One of the majors we currently have are the "true believers". They eschew common sense, fact, etc. basically anything that would challenge the belief. I still believe that we have a 2 party system and each tends to go too far because they no longer talk to one another. That happened when they got rid of ear marks. Our leaders need to speak to one another and get along. They also need to cut back on raising money, self serving, greed and lies. The problems are across the spectrum from left to right.

Voting is what we got. That seems to be where the real problem is and, hopefully, somebody will figure it out. If we are to survive we need an elected class that actually works with each other instead of mouth service. We now have a new voting class that has entered - youth. They have been missing, perhaps they will help it. Then there are the poor who also don't vote. I think this not voting thing is a serious part of the problem and I support mandatory voting. Even if you don't vote for a single thing a blank ballot also sends a message.

Thanks for your input - appreciate it...........

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#306408 - 04/14/18 10:51 PM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 995
There's a lot to be said about the younger generation. In fact, I was listening to an interview of the director, Adam Curtis, on a podcast from the Yutes. They had him on to talk about his latest 'Hypernormalisation' which does a remarkable job of explaining the current zeitgeist and how we arrived at Trump (who actually appears several times in it from both recent and older footage, times in the documentary). Highly recommend watching this film. Very informative of the collapse of the western neoliberal order and the loss of confidence it's people.
In depth and riveting, for me the take away is that there is not a vision for the future from the left yet though there is one that is trying to find it's voice. Unfortunately the instruments of power within the democratic party are trying to maintain itself and primary out new voices from the election.
This is the core problem of voting. As someone put it about 2016 'it was a choice of death by cancer or death by firing squad.
What we seem to be approaching is French economist Piketty's comparison to 19th century France's illiberal democracy whereby the elites are choosing whom we shall vote on. All the candidates are controlled by the entrenched power structure. So what, then, does voting get you? It doesn't change anything....... (heard that sentiment before?...)

Sanders was a real opportunity to shift the Oberten window. What's interesting is that his insurgency has stuck and left an apparatus for funding progressives, among several independent progressive funding sources now, in the critical primaries. What we need is a vision for a future (say, wasn't that Sanders campaign slogan) or we may end up with a blue wave resulting in a dead end like the Arab Spring.





Edited by chunkstyle (04/14/18 10:52 PM)

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#306418 - 04/15/18 07:35 PM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2143
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I received, daily, about 20 requests for money from the left. Some are cloaked in "sign this", or scare me tactics (we are broke and can't continue without ....", etc. I mark them all as spam and they just change their ip and keep on coming. Its pretty disgusting. I can't even figure out who, or what, half of them are. Then there are the stories about the national dems attacking otherwise good candidates so they can stick in one of their hacks. My fond hope is that the dems, and the left, just stop it and start actually doing something. I know that there are those who are working, very hard, locally but many are saying they are getting absolutely no help from national. I am concerned.

I would, for instance, love to see some ads that pointed out the differences between right and left. They are pretty glaring and easily proven (the "tax reform" would be a good place to start). That being said, I just don't see it happening. I am not the only voice saying this but, instead of building treasure in the bank they gotta start fighting back!

Oh, again, when there is a 40% voter turnout its portrayed as a landslide. They say the left is energized and I hope that is true. What I do know is that the left remains splintered. EVERYBODY has to just stop it, recognize that there are 2 sides and make up their mind which one they are more comfortable on. Instead, it seems to me that on both sides, factions continue with the "my way or the highway" crap. I really don't care what the right does as I stand on the left. I wish others, who should, would stop the bickering and get to work.

In other words I am not so sure the left needs a vision for the future so much as an agreement on just not agreeing with the right. Privatization, massive debt, unending wars, you know, that kind of stuff the right is so proud of. I have always found it interesting, for instance, that the rest of the developed world spend less on healthcare than we do, by like 4 times less. They do this by controlling the entire industry (there are no secrets here). Remember, the rest of the developed world now exceeds our expected longevity due to their healthcare. The question, in this case (and most others) is pretty stark - do you think its right that healthcare, in other developed nations, has extended their longevity whilst ours continues to decline?

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#306420 - 04/15/18 10:41 PM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 995
There are good solid campaign finance groups that are backing candidates that meet progressive criteria. Digging around the web will help you identify these groups. Working Families Coalition, Our Revolution, Indivisible to name a few.

The problem as I see it is that the right believes in increasingly wrong things (as Adam Curtis' sprawling documentary of game theory examined) and the Democrats believe in nothing (again, explained in 'Hypernormalization). When Democrats keep voting to deregulate banking, oppose reproductive rights, shrug their shoulders on privacy and vote to go to endorse international violence it should become increasingly obvious that there is no left voice. There are moments in an election when they will borrow a left voice and talk in terms of left wing solutions but there record shows them to behave otherwise.

Do you really believe, JGW, that the democratic party needs to be against another political party rather then be for something? That seemed to be the play that Clinton used.

'I'M WITH HER!' - what did that even mean except she wasn't her opponent?

If you are saying that what is needed is some technocratic tinkering around the edges and a clear distinction between centrist Dems and the right I would respectfully disagree. Sanders and Corbyn have proven that point.

'It does feel like we are at the end of something' is a sentiment I agree with and there is a brawl going on as to what will come next. Suburban 'Normies' (as the yutes are calling them) would like to return to the familiar comfort of the status quo. What the normies are not getting is there was and are real reasons for why we got Trump. Libs are going crazy convincing themselves it was Russian interference, FBI interference etc... What the Libs can't seem to face are the deep structural problems in our society.
Right now the far right has a clear eyed vision of what they would like the future to be. The left is trying to define one but is fighting an uphill battle from both the right and the centrist dems.

Allow yourself a favor and have a listen to an interesting yute podcast conversation with Curtis:






Adam Curtis interview on Chapo yute podcast


Edited by chunkstyle (04/15/18 10:42 PM)

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