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#306421 - 04/15/18 10:49 PM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 825
"What we were talking about, in many cases, is people who are at the center of society at the moment, they are not out in the margins. They would have a lot to lose from real political change because it really would change things in the structure of power. Or - and this is the brutal question: Do you just want things to change a little bit? Do you just want the banks to be a little bit nicer, or for people to be a little more respectful of each other's identities - All of which is good - but basically you carry on living in a nice world where you tinker with it. That’s the key question. But you can't just sit there forever worrying about big ideas because there are millions of people out there who do want Change. And the key thing is: they feel they’ve got nothing to lose. You might have lots to lose, but they feel they’ve got absolute nothing to lose. But at the moment they're being led by the Right. So things won't remain the same."

Really puts the hook in ya...

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#306434 - 04/16/18 07:12 PM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1958
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Your question are a bit odd, I think. I don't care if banks are nice or not. I do care when they cheat, lie, steal, gamble with other's money, and work very hard to shatter our economy. I also find it interesting that they continue to do this stuff on a regular basis and our congress continues to reward their efforts. Except for the efforts to control them, during the Obama administration, they have been able to run amuck under bother parties. I have always found it interesting that the congress, years ago, at the behest of the banking industry, passed a law removing all responsibility from them that hold personal information on others. that one started out as a banking request but our congress, in its infinite wisdom, extended it to everybody. Nobody even bothers mention that one and, I think, its still out there which would explain why there have been no convictions for them that have that data (its a source of revenue for every one of them).

As far as actual changes goes. That one is actually quite pesky. Change tends to bring chaos which, until the jackass came on the screen was not exactly a favorite of the public, or the elected class. Change is, I think, a kindofa crap shoot so we have to be careful with that one. I am flat out, however, sending bad guys, including white collar criminals to prison. I am also, flat out, against the Obama solution of giving very rich criminals, and corporations, huge fines instead of prison. I am also against paying these fines whilst never admitting guilt. If this kind of thing is change then I am all for it. I also have absolutely no hope that any of that is ever going to change. Wealth simply owns too much of gov, basically with bribery condoned by law such as political contributions (bribery), etc., to allow that to actually happen.

I can remember, years ago, when I actually knew some of the elected. I once asked about change and they just laughed. When I mentioned that they mentioned 'change' when running for office they laughed again. When one tried to get down to it change was explained by questions like; "tell me what you think change is", "what kind of change do you think works?", and "really?". As far as I can tell nothing has changed and has actually gotten worse over time. Most of the time, when there is actual change, its not really a good thing. The current tax bill is an excellent example of really bad change. Another is dumping all the environmental regulations they can (the one allowing coal producers to dump poison into running water was one of my favs in that regard). One can go on and on about this so why bother?

Oh, people feel they have nothing to lose? That is true until they actually do lose something. I think the next big loss is going to come with Medicare. They are reducing that one by 25 billion a year. I am 83 years old. I also have a place in Canada <G> and we are considering buying in Mexico too just to be safe. We are, basically, getting ready for 'change'. Another reason people feel that they have nothing to lose is because they have never been anyplace where people REALLY have nothing to lose. I remember a story told to me by a professor I had in college. During the depression they held a march on Olympia so people jumped into their jalopies and went to the march. He was, at the time a registered Communist and had friends from Russia visiting. The Russians couldn't believe the march as everybody seemed to own some kind of transportation which was not true in their country. I remember him also telling me that them that went to Olympia, in their jalopies felt they had nothing to lose. For a very long time my wife and I have traveled the world. We are independent travelers and do not take cruises or the rest of that. I know what people that have nothing to lose look like and Americans are not them. My problem with the whole thing is that they could be and, with the Jackass, they stand a better chance of losing than I have seen in a very long time.

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#306436 - 04/16/18 08:47 PM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 825
My apologies JGW. The question that you responded to was not mine. It was a question that was asked of Adam Curtis by a co-host of a podcast that I have been following. The podcast hosts are millenials and are asking the director some excellent questions that you seldom get from the news/entertainment industrial complex. I had posted this podcast on the previous page and made a hash out of quoting Curtis. Sorry for the confusion.
My thoughts are Trump didn't happen in a vacuum and he wasn't voted into office because all the racist ran out of the woods and into the voting booth. Nor did the people vote for him to diminish their circumstance. It's very much worth looking at the circumstances leading up to Trump.
I agree that we havn't seen the co-option of government as bad as the current situation since three guys got in a room and decided on McKinley. The only thing that government is listening too is money and that goes for either side of the aisle. In my own district we have a progressive candidate that has popular proposals that she is committed to fighting for. Has backing of progressive parties and local union support. Has support from the last democratic candidate that lost to the incumbant republican by 6 points in a district that went to Clinton +5 points.
Along comes the DCCC and pledges the loser candidate their support and has convinced her to change her mind and run again. We now have a split primary ticket. This is a play that has been repeated thru out the country. The DCCC is not supposed to pick the winners in the primary. Yet here we are. Watching the DCCC blow into town and chose the candidate for our district.
Might explain how we get 78 Democratic representatives to vote with the Republicans on their Volker Rule Regulation Harmonization act that will ultimately allow banks of a certain size to invest FDIC insured money.
So what, then does simply pulling a lever for a candidate with a D next to their name gitchya?
You mentioned an educated voting public as one part of the solution. I agree with this. I find it interesting that a resurgent labor striking to do just that has not been mentioned on this board. Thousands went into the street in West Virginia and Oklahoma recently. States that had gone heavy for Trump but also showed support for the Strikers. Interesting....
One final thought about the observations of the communist professor. Where I agree that a lot of deprivation can be perceived a lot of todays destitution is not. I have recently toured my hometown that I grew up. To say that there had been some changes is to put it as a centrist. It is third world now. Settled in 1790's as most were around here, it was a village sporting 2 centuries of architecture with some industrial remnants scattered up and down the river from an earlier water driven industrial time. There were lots of carriage barns and fencing and even sported a catholic church. Today it's like most eny other small town. Carriage houses and barns have fallen down, porches have rotted off hose fronts, lots of junked cars in yards and multiple electric meters on what were once proud homes. This slow motion grind has been going on for much of america. What was once a solid community of mostly Democrats commuting to the nearby larger towns and cities for good paying jobs has descended into a desperate town that had a referendum to dis-incorporate in order to save some money. Shift the responsibility over to the county and state. It was rotten with Trump signs...

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#306439 - 04/17/18 07:18 PM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1958
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I think the jackass was elected because of two things. First there is the thought that there were "good old days" and that is what they want to return to. There good old days - were not! If you just go back 20 years ago it was MUCH different, and not better. We have continued, until the jackass, to become more civilized. Anyway, many also just think that change is good and they never really think on what that means. I remember having the same feeling and voted against a long time senator to vent my speen. He lost the election and I learned my lesson as I felt a bit responsible and he was a good guy and actually a friend <sigh>

The Dem national does continue to screw it up. Hillary, however, is running a plan to help organize, fund and train local groups and is having success in that one. I am not a big Hillary booster but she really isn't the devil either. I live in a town that was established, by Lincoln, as the second capital if they lost the civil war. We used to have 3 large timber mills and they are now all gone. Our main industry is now retirement (lots of folks from California). Our population has been around 19,000 for a very long time. Our weather projections will not change much from normal in spite of climate change and prices are not all that high. Sounds like you were from one of them east coast towns with all the old stuff. We have a town like that pretty close called Port Townsend. I used to own stuff down there but sold it all off (one housed the Old Port Townsend Brewery (hasn't run since the 1800's)

I remain convinced that the real battle is against two views and they are represented by 'left' and 'right'. The political parties are supposed to reflect that but they have confused themselves. I think the left should simply run educational ads that go something like; "this is what they do and stand for" and "this is what we do and stand for" The problem is that it would be a real crap shoot, on both sides to actually explain what they do. The Republicans are certainly not going to mention that they are the party of spending, big time, for instance. Actually I think that the parties being just as closed mouth about themselves as is gov and I really don't understand that one.

Anyway....................

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#306440 - 04/19/18 01:33 AM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15967
Not all of the States of the Union are insane, but soon, clearly are: Tennessee lawmakers punish Memphis for removing statue of Confederate and KKK leader - WaPo (limited access). I'm speechless. Seriously. Is this 1850?

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#306443 - 04/19/18 05:52 PM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1958
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Then there is the apparent status of public education in many of the red states. This one astounds me and kinda proves the simple fact that many of the American electorate are actually unable to act in their own best interest. The marches by teachers tend to bear it out as, apparently, the parents of the school children were, again apparently, supporting their own public school system. It is so bad, in some rural areas in Kentucky that the school systems in some rural areas are only open 4 days a week as they lack the funds to heat the schools! The teachers, they say, make approximately 30% of what they make in other states. They say, for instance, that Oklahoma trains all sorts of teachers and soon as they get their degrees they flee to other states that pay, at least, a living wage. I live in the state of Washington. If our school systems had regressed to the state of those in many red states the parents would be out in the streets, along with the teachers, in force.

I just have trouble understanding how parents, in any state, could allow their public school systems to deteriorate to such a degree. I guess this explains how populations can be hoodwinked and otherwise misdirected to vote contrary to the needs of their own children. Its kinda like the unions that marched, during the Vietnam war to keep that war going even though their own children were being killed in a war that made no sense and should never have occurred. The very fact that we have a war that's been going on, for over 18 years, killing ours, for as far as I can see, no reason at all is, I think, peculiar all by itself.

We expect the congress to start behaving and doing its job. My question is why in the world would we expect any such thing when those expecting such continue to elect an elected class obviously working, very hard, for just about everything contrary to their own needs. We live in strange times................

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#306448 - 04/20/18 03:52 PM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 825
JGW
I, also, was considering a long written response but found this article from Rolling Stone instead:

Word from the street


Edited by chunkstyle (04/20/18 03:52 PM)

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#306534 - 04/30/18 07:15 PM Re: Are we really insane? [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1958
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
The United States spends approximately 2 times as much on healthcare than the other 12 High-Income countries of the world. This is government money spent for PUBLIC healthcare! What this means is that the United States is spending MORE on public healthcare, per capita, than the other High-Income countries are spending on their own universal healthcare. Let me repeat, we are spending more money on public healthcare than anybody else than other countries spend on universal, government paid, healthcare. This even gets a bit more interesting. The United States expected life expectancy is actually falling whilst the rest of the high-income countries. Take drugs, for instance. If you check the prices of whatever you are being subscribed, you will find that Canada will, on average, price their drugs approximately 50% of what you have in the United States. I am talking about drugs that are exactly the same as those in this country made by exactly the same companies! (who get to make at least 50% more here than any place else, and still manage to stay open for business)

Basically the other industrialized countries of the world treat healthcare as a social responsible paid for by taxes. In the United States healthcare is a for-profit enterprise that is, according to all the stats, is simply not as good as healthcare in other nations of the world. The answer, of course, is simple. Other government actually control the costs of their healthcare. The United States, however, does not and actually supports a greedy, failing, system of healthcare that has actually reduced OUR life expectancy!

I guess I should express my admiration for those who support our healthcare, especially those who are aware of these facts, and are, apparently, quite willing to sacrifice their own lives to continue to support a system that is going to kill them. For the rest of us, I have no idea why we haven't risen up and demanded that we get healthcare that is, at least, as good as those nations with national healthcare systems. The fact remains, we have remained docile, and apparently content to die before others, rather than even vaguely fight back.

We, in the United States, seem to live in a very strange world?

A link for the heck of it:
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publicat...bal-perspective

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