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#306637 - 05/07/18 01:24 PM TRUMP 2020!
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 915
Instead of posting up past articles that proved to be prescient hows about a post that could be prescient for the future?
I've read a good deal of Frank Thomas and found his analysis to be spot on. Regretfully I found one of his latest articles to ring true as well.
As the corporate democratic establishment focuses on all of the POTUS's ugly spots and punches left, as it all too often does (including in the recent presidential primary), it has failed to come up with any coherent message as an alternative to the far rights. It's as though the party is trying to extend the strategy of the past democratic presidential nominee's late stage repugnancy strategy.

IF the article is to long or boring let me just copy and paste the money shot from Frank:

"There’s really only one set of successful politics for an age like this one: It’s the politics that we identify with the party of Lyndon Johnson, the party of the New Deal. What Trump has offered is a kind of weird replica of that. But as I have said many times, the real thing would beat the fake."

Lets see if he's called it again in 2020?

Thomas Frank Q&A


Edited by chunkstyle (05/07/18 02:45 PM)

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#306643 - 05/07/18 07:13 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14108
Loc: Florida
Interesting article and he's got things pretty well pegged.

There's a good chance Trump can win another term. George Bush did it.
I'm not counting on Mueller to do much of anything. If he had the goods he would have delivered them already.

I don't look for much to happen in the midterms either. Dems will gain a few seats in the house, but not control of it. Senate isn't liable to change.

The economy is going to stay fairly strong because there is really nothing to stop it yet. But boom times invariably lead to bust times and the bigger the boom, the bigger the bust.

I'm hoping that Trump will simply choose not to run in 2020.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#306645 - 05/07/18 08:00 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6450
Loc: Highlands, Tx
"I'm hoping that Trump will simply choose not to run in 2020."

Mr Trump's choices are mandated by his narcissism. He may believe only a second term would necessary for him to achieve Godhood.

I think Mr Trump already believes he is the greatest president to ever have lived. If you don't believe me, believe his own words starting with crowd size continuing to preemptively finding a Korean solution for peace.

What's next? A cure for cancer? and there is always Godhood waiting for the man who believes he is savior and master of the universe.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#306646 - 05/07/18 09:08 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13230
Loc: Whittier, California
WaPo:Majority of Americans don’t see Trump tax cuts in paychecks

Quote:
The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center estimated that the typical middle-income household would see an after-tax gain of $930 in 2018 as a result of the new law. Assuming a one-paycheck household, that adds up to a little less than $18 a week. That’s enough for an extra lunch at Chipotle (average check: $12) but won’t even cover a steak dinner at Outback Steakhouse.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#306649 - 05/07/18 09:16 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: rporter314]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14108
Loc: Florida
He's already convinced of his greatness. If he simply retires he gets to move into the ranks of the Former Presidents Of The United States. Nobody ever says bad things about Former Presidents. They don't have jobs and can play golf whenever they want. Trump is gonna love being an FPOTUS! FPs get to travel around and get their pictures taken with A-Listers!

There is a risk that he might lose the 2020 election. He'd go out a loser....sad.

He's old. Older than me. And I know what it feels like to get old. It hurts. Physically, emotionally, and mentally, it hurts. He'd rather just watch tv and take a nap, okay?

He never wanted this job to begin with, never imagined he would actually win. He would join the former candidates for POTUS club. Like Sarah Palin, Mitt Romney...nobody says bad stuff about them and they get to hang out and get their pictures taken with B-Listers at Miralago.

Being president is hard.

He might not run.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#306650 - 05/08/18 02:03 AM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7773
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
I'm not counting on Mueller to do much of anything. If he had the goods he would have delivered them already.


Watergate took two years and the original crime was MUCH simpler than Trump's many crimes. Be patient. Mueller may not act overtly until he has a new House with a lot of the worst actors unemployed.

And the Senate does not need to change much to have a Democratic majority. Just a few seats. Things will be very different after November.

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#306654 - 05/08/18 03:04 AM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 325
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
The Senate convicts on a "...two thirds of the Members present." They will need a lot more than "Just a few seats."
_________________________
Vote 2018; give meaning and honor to those who made sure you have the right to vote.

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#306655 - 05/08/18 03:57 AM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: Greger]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6450
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
There is a risk that he might lose the 2020 election. He'd go out a loser....sad.

here's the problem with that

as a narcissist he does not think of himself as a loser. His delusion is he is a winner ... people love him .... he is the greatest .... etc etc. and he already has a 2020 campaign pac in operation.

as to a possible reality he would lose ... remember the rigged elections? ... he would lose because illegals voted and the establishment rigged the election, etc ... still a winner

think like a narcissist, not a rational person
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#306658 - 05/08/18 04:45 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: rporter314]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14108
Loc: Florida
Quote:
remember the rigged elections?


Yeah, he'd have an out if he ran and lost, kind of a weak one though.

But my theory that he might not run is pretty weak too. I'll admit that I might be grasping at the straws that broke the camels back on this one. But it's still a possibility for a handful of reasons.

Can he win if he does run? Hell yeah. His base still loves him and most Republicans will vote for him. If he bows out Pence will run in his stead.
The onus is on Democrats to come up with a viable candidate to run in 2020.
Say It Aint Joe In 2020
Quote:
The Democrats lost about 1,000 seats in state legislatures over the course of the Obama years. In 2016, they lost the presidency to a cartoonishly racist and widely despised reality television personality. Something hasn’t been working for the brand. This appears lost on the sector of the party that hopes to woo voters in 2020 with the same old centrist agenda. This time, it’s dressed up in the down-home package of Joe Biden— “Middle-Class Joe,” as he calls himself.
>snip<
...of the six people considered the most likely 2020 Democratic presidential contenders—Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Kamala Harris, Cory Booker, Kirsten Gillibrand and Biden—only “Middle-Class Joe” does not support single-payer healthcare.


**sighs**

_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#306659 - 05/08/18 04:53 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14108
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Things will be very different after November.


Democrats everywhere are putting way too many eggs in that basket.

The Blue Wave may prove to be little more than a blue ripple.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#306660 - 05/08/18 06:00 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 915
Thomas Frank does a very good job of exposing the false mind palace thinking with regards to the political pendulum swinging on it's own and the all mighty sanctity of 'Hye thee to the political center' salvation thinking that seems to afflict so many in the democratic party today. He also does a good job of explaining why in this recent lecture:

Unsparing assessments


Edited by chunkstyle (05/08/18 06:01 PM)

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#306661 - 05/08/18 06:02 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 915
Trumps 2020!

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#306663 - 05/08/18 09:36 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: Greger]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6450
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
The Democrats lost about 1,000 seats in state legislatures over the course of the Obama years.

I have given this thought over the years and nothing I came up with made a lot of sense, until now.

I now think the large losses had little to do with Pres Obama, and I say little relatively speaking of course. It was during these years we saw the most dramatic rise of populism reflected first with Tea people. These folks had really little to do with taxes but a lot to do with changing political atmosphere. While it may be true bigotry and racism was the glue which bound populist/nationalist principles, it was in fact growing frustration with political solutions, which caused these lilke minded people to form a coalition. We can see now candidates wallowing in their bigotry and Mr Trump's only concern is not winning i.e. it is ok to be a bigot or pedophile, etc as long as you can win. All of these candidates promote populist agendas. They are scraping the bottom of the barrel for the worst candidates possible only because that is where populists reside.

I foresee big chunks of time allocated to populism and a directly proportional relationship to the destruction of America and its values. The only hope is a relatively even partition politically of voters, which may prevent the odiousness of populism from swallowing America whole.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#306664 - 05/08/18 10:26 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: rporter314]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 915
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:
The Democrats lost about 1,000 seats in state legislatures over the course of the Obama years.

I have given this thought over the years and nothing I came up with made a lot of sense, until now.

I now think the large losses had little to do with Pres Obama, and I say little relatively speaking of course. It was during these years we saw the most dramatic rise of populism reflected first with Tea people. These folks had really little to do with taxes but a lot to do with changing political atmosphere. While it may be true bigotry and racism was the glue which bound populist/nationalist principles, it was in fact growing frustration with political solutions, which caused these lilke minded people to form a coalition. We can see now candidates wallowing in their bigotry and Mr Trump's only concern is not winning i.e. it is ok to be a bigot or pedophile, etc as long as you can win. All of these candidates promote populist agendas. They are scraping the bottom of the barrel for the worst candidates possible only because that is where populists reside.

I foresee big chunks of time allocated to populism and a directly proportional relationship to the destruction of America and its values. The only hope is a relatively even partition politically of voters, which may prevent the odiousness of populism from swallowing America whole.


FDR, Johnson, Debs, Mary Jones, Big Bill Haywood, Susan B. Anthony and Sanders are populist. Movements such as BLM and Occupy and Our Revolution may be considered populist groups.
I would consider myself a populist as the Democratic party once was.
Those political urges are now being competently harnessed by the right, IMO.

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#306670 - 05/09/18 04:10 AM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6450
Loc: Highlands, Tx
First, one should read the Constitution, not once but many times. If after reading one does not understand our form of government is for the common man, the ordinary citizen, then it must be read again. There is a certain form of populism inherent in our democracy, which entertains the notion the common man has the same rights as any privileged or elite person.

What should be of concern is the current incarnation of populism, which is based on the notion white folks have been disenfranchised by "liberal elites" in favor of minorities. Further, the fundamentalist Christians believe the same "liberal elites" have assaulted, what these Christians believe, is their Constitutional entitlement for enhanced status.

Basically what this means is, this brand of populism is really an elitist populism of white folks. I find this very disturbing.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#306671 - 05/09/18 04:40 AM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: rporter314]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40955
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Quote:
The Democrats lost about 1,000 seats in state legislatures over the course of the Obama years.

Hello!! Gerrymandering and voter suppression. Hmm
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#306673 - 05/09/18 04:44 AM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16108
I'm not sure it's Trump 2020 so much, tonight, more likely 20 to Life...

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#306680 - 05/09/18 02:35 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8846
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
I think we are trying too hard to make logical sense out of a thing that is fundamentally illogical. I have tried to verbalize a sense that politics is more about salesmanship than it is about policy, but have not hit upon a satisfactory expression of the concept - probably because I want it to be logical.

Here's the deal - I believe that the Trump voting 'populists' are stimulated by three basic things: 1) they have had a simple political villain conjured for them to hate (libs, proggies, Dems, etc.); 2) they have had a nice and neat little package of things to fear handed to them (immigrants, the gummit, socialist/fascist swat teams coming for your guns, etc.); 3) they have been convinced that they are exceptional and are being forced, at dire reduction of personal treasury, to take care of the hordes of losers.

This shallow bundle of delusions has been sold unethically and unabashedly to the Fools class (another one is born every minute), and teams have been firmly established to battle it out on the Reality Show playing field (aka the Coliseum). #WINNING! is the sole measure of success, and winning is as simple as beating the enemy (it's not about how you play the game... or about making things better).

How to counter this destructive and moronic 'populist' movement? That is the conundrum. Doing a better job of #WINNING! is likely a formula for increasing the grade on the slippery slope into the Cesspit of Gloom.

My sense is that the antidote is in having a serious and real enemy show up so that the Fake News enemy is pushed from the forefront. That could be war, economic depression (to name a couple of tried and true Tormentors); or it could be an environmental disaster of one flavor or another (or maybe a banana split sundae with lots of flavors).

Or maybe, a super charismatic and honest leader will show up who has the sales ability to make people want peace, love, and quiet prosperity more than war, fear, and easy riches?

Humans... I don't know how we survive as a species.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#306682 - 05/09/18 07:15 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: logtroll]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 325
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Or maybe, a super charismatic and honest leader will show up who has the sales ability to make people want peace, love, and quiet prosperity more than war, fear, and easy riches?


According to some religious stories, we had one about 2000 years ago, we crucified his ass!
_________________________
Vote 2018; give meaning and honor to those who made sure you have the right to vote.

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

Top
#306683 - 05/09/18 07:49 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16108
I thought we elected one in 2008...
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#306699 - 05/10/18 10:16 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 325
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Yea, there is that one also. No savor, but some sure want to erase him from the histories. I do not know which is worse what was done to the first one or what is being done to the last one.
_________________________
Vote 2018; give meaning and honor to those who made sure you have the right to vote.

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

Top
#306701 - 05/11/18 02:20 AM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: Ujest Shurly]
Spag-hetti Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1662
Loc: Middle, USA
ThumbsUp Bow ThumbsUp

Nice exchange, NWP and Shurly.
_________________________
Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#306705 - 05/11/18 11:51 AM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 915
It would be an odd silver lining to a Trump 2 terms if he spares social security as he promised on the campaign trail. A polar opposite of the now abandoned new Dealist party saving it's crown jewel legacy.
The first bullet ducked by a sex scandal. The second by a banking and financial scandal.
What will save it from the Wall Street wild boys now? They have both parties in their pockets. Trumps campaign promise?.....
Irony...


Edited by chunkstyle (05/11/18 11:52 AM)

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#306711 - 05/11/18 06:28 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2062
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
We have had populists before and we will again. I think its all based on the dissatisfied who are not responsible for anything and big at blaming. I have often wondered how many actually vote normally. As far as the Jackass is concerned. I think that his Republican financial downturn will happen before 2020 as he seems to be working on that one. If that doesn't, and his current stats continue then he will be VERY hard to beat (unless the Dems figure it out and actually start to fight back, "them or us" isn't all bad! (just being against the Jackass isn't enough, they gotta deal with the whole bunch of 'em)

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#306712 - 05/11/18 07:05 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 915
" I think its all based on the dissatisfied who are not responsible for anything and big at blaming"

That's why democrats will continue to get beat. AT least conservatives will identify whats wrong, staying clear of their hand in it. The current white collar democrats won't admit there's problems insisting 'America's already great!'

I think we are seeing something similar to the black voters shifting away from republicans at this moment. Having given up on their early civil rights activity, they contented themselves with business and it's expansion.

Today the roles have been reversed and a lot of working class democrats are feeling like the party has abandoned them in favor of the professional class (which it has for the most part) and they're getting at least lip service from the right. Solid blue democratic districts for decades have turned red. Does it strike anyone curious to wonder why?
Or should we talk about the Russians..........


Edited by chunkstyle (05/11/18 07:07 PM)

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#306714 - 05/11/18 10:02 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7773
Loc: North San Diego County
It's kind of funny, Republicans want to privatize Social Security and Wall Street is all behind turning everybody's secure pension into a 401K style investment account they can churn and take commissions from. But that would turn almost everybody in the country into a Wall Street fanboy. Every shoe-shine boy and garbage man giving you hot penny stock tips. Sound like 1929?

It sounds like a populist move, but most people would do much worse managing their own portfolios. And simply turning a lifetime pension system into an investment account would impoverish millions of people during their last days. I think planning a draw-down to a certain age would result in a huge wave of suicides when they live longer that their money.

We should call it what it is: A Republican scheme to murder lots of old people.

Maybe what we need is an insurance plan to give people a certain modest income if they live beyond their life expectancy. Oh, wait: That's what we have now!

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#306716 - 05/11/18 10:37 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 915
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
It's kind of funny, Republicans want to privatize Social Security and Wall Street is all behind turning everybody's secure pension into a 401K style investment account they can churn and take commissions from. But that would turn almost everybody in the country into a Wall Street fanboy. Every shoe-shine boy and garbage man giving you hot penny stock tips. Sound like 1929?

It sounds like a populist move, but most people would do much worse managing their own portfolios. And simply turning a lifetime pension system into an investment account would impoverish millions of people during their last days. I think planning a draw-down to a certain age would result in a huge wave of suicides when they live longer that their money.

We should call it what it is: A Republican scheme to murder lots of old people.

Maybe what we need is an insurance plan to give people a certain modest income if they live beyond their life expectancy. Oh, wait: That's what we have now!


You do realize that it was Bill Clinton who wanted to privatize social security security and nearly did so PIA?
Ditto with Obama?

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#306717 - 05/11/18 10:53 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16108
chunk,I love ya, but I gotta call B.S.

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#306718 - 05/11/18 10:55 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 915

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#306723 - 05/12/18 01:18 AM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
Spag-hetti Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1662
Loc: Middle, USA
I read the two articles. One is about how Hillary Clinton might have been considering health accounts during the election. The other was a thinly sourced report of Bill Clinton looking at privatization. Both seem like they could hang from cobwebs. Is there one for Obama?
_________________________
Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#306725 - 05/12/18 01:24 AM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: Spag-hetti]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14108
Loc: Florida
At some point in his life Obama probably said that people should try to save more. That's about as substantial as these two links.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#306728 - 05/12/18 03:34 AM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 915
Links out. A rabbet hole to go down.
Feed your head

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#306729 - 05/12/18 04:09 AM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 915
Yeah. I'll admit I misspoke that Obama wanted to privatise SS. Cut? Yes. Privatise? No.

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#306730 - 05/12/18 11:26 AM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7773
Loc: North San Diego County
Back to the thread topic: If Republicans want to run somebody with a stunning background, they have a real war hero with multiple medals who has gone on to serve our country at the highest levels for his entire post-military career:

Robert Mueller

Time Magazine's Short List for Person of the Year 2017

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#306731 - 05/12/18 01:51 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 915
Republicans are happy with the current office holder.

Trump 2020!


Edited by chunkstyle (05/12/18 01:52 PM)

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#306732 - 05/12/18 02:32 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 915
It's lousy right wing corporate democratic ideas, like privatizing social security, that will help get Trump a second term.
It's quite astounding to see how far the Democratic Party has moved to the right for the professionals and have exposed themselves on their left flank. Whereas the right has picked up on anger and imitated the language of the populist left and are winning.
There was no better example of how obvious that was than during the democratic primary. It was clear who had the energy and why.
It was clear in the general who had the energy and why.
There is still this managerial corporate class dominating the Democratic Party that won't realize this and they have the pie charts and Venn diagrams that will prove otherwise.
This battle between the populist left wing and the white collared right of the Democratic Party is being played out in the primaries across the country.
The corporatists are trying to knock out the populist progressives.
If the corporatists succeed I expect the right to further consolidate gains in 2020.
As Thomas Frank has stated 'they know how to beat democrats now'.
I would add that the democrats don't understand how they get beat.


Edited by chunkstyle (05/12/18 02:35 PM)

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#306733 - 05/12/18 05:55 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16108
I admit, I laughed out loud when I saw the sources you cited, my friend. CATO? About CLINTON. Yeah, I believe that as much as I believe anything the Donald has to say...

There are NO DEMOCRATS supporting privatizing Social Security. None. I've found no credible evidence of that, anywhere. The most that can be said is that some said they are "open to compromise." It has been a longstanding point that private savings could be allowed to supplement Social Security - like the "Deferred Compensation" and "Thrift Savings Plans" governmental employees enjoy. I've not seen any suggestions about cutting, either.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

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#306735 - 05/12/18 06:06 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6450
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I believe saying Congress should privatize SS is the equivalent of saying the federal government should not offer any services to its citizens.

If that is the case then the only point of a federal government is to ensure the rich get richer and to steal everything in sight.
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#306736 - 05/12/18 07:54 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6450
Loc: Highlands, Tx
The title of a news article suggested something so odious I couldn't bring myself to read it ... Russians to reap great benefit from US withdrawal from JCPOA. So this notion struck me ... the evangelicals are packing their bags for the end of times and the Russian oligarchs are making out like the bandits they are ... Mr Trump sold out to the religious nuts and made a partial down payment for his end of the quid pro quo to the Russians ... I mean WOW ... WOW
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ignorance is the enemy
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#306737 - 05/12/18 08:35 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: rporter314]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16108
I, too, had read a number of articles about who will benefit from the withdrawal from JCPOA. I think Trump's primary interest in scuttling it was purely spite. Anything Obama did, he viscerally opposes. It was one of Obama's signature achievements, therefore it must be bad. He's not a deep or strategic thinker.

But, there are certainly those who gain from Iran as the boogeyman, and they encouraged the weak-minded one to "take a stand". Among those are: John Bolton (whose neocon bona fides need stimulation); Israeli hardliners (Netanyahu); Iranian hardliners; Saudi Arabia; Russia; China. In other words, all those who are not fans of American security. Trump was quite willing to play into their hands. He's a fool of the highest order.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#306738 - 05/12/18 10:04 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7773
Loc: North San Diego County
The incredible part of killing the Iran deal is that we gave them back their impounded money for many years of them not working on nuclear weapons. We have already done our part of the deal! All the remaining years of the deal required actions by Iran. Killing the deal now lets them off the hook for their part. It is so stupid it can't just be stupidity. It has to be a favor for Putin to force Iran to become a Russia client state.

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#306740 - 05/12/18 11:58 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6450
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Let me point out the irony of JCPOA.

At Israel's insistence ( and the fact the US has been the only long time unconditional supporter of Israel) and long time propaganda campaign, the US and its allies were forced to either allow Israel to bomb Iran and thus precipitate another mid-east conflagration or negotiate a deal to stop a perceived (mostly as a result of Israeli propaganda) nuclear weapons program. Of course what the Israelis (and American right wing religious nuts wanted) was for Iran to surrender. This was obviously a non-starter for anyone with a brain cell or two.

So what happened? During the late 1980's and throughout the 1990's Iran perceived an existential threat from Iraq (initially as a result of US support for Saddam and later as a result of Saddam's tactical use of WMD's and the putative nuclear weapons program). As a result Iran started a nuclear weapons program. (Makes sense to me). However, when the US invaded and removed Saddam, Iran perceived a different kind of threat. It was simply non-nuclear, but at the same time Iran realized the US would not or could not implement a land war in central Asia. At this point Iran ended their nuclear ambitions in 2003.

Iran had to love the idea Israel continued to promote the idea Iran was pursuing nuclear weapons after it had stopped the program. This allowed an opening for negotiations to end sanctions and give a program which did not exist.

Even now Israel continues beating the war drum, since it did not get the surrender PM Netanyahu wanted. Mr Trump has in effect given the green light to PM Netanyahu to bomb Iran and end the illusion of a 2-state solution.

Why would anyone submit Mr Trump's name as a candidate for a Nobel? I predict he has opened the doors for war in the mid-east and for delusionally believing there will be a peace solution on the Korean peninsula.
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ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#306750 - 05/14/18 08:23 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2062
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I keep repeating this, but just in case. The, the United States, does not like Iran. Iran is Shia, we like the Sunni (Saudi Arabia - the source of ALL terrorists that we have had contact with, ie ISIS and Al-Qaeda for starters. ISIS, for instance, uses Saudi School books in their own schools). Our claim that Iran are terrorists is that Iran supports the Shia. Basically, WE have chosen a side in the thousand year old war of Islam. All the rest of this is pure bunkum. What does make it more interesting is that Israel too has chosen the Sunni side, with vigor. Iran, under Saddam, was Sunni and the remains of his army are the ones who formed ISIS after WE lied to them about our responsibilities if they stayed out of our war with Saddam.

In other words, we LOVE war and the jobs it provides us as, probably, the world's biggest arms producer and supplier to whoever.

As far as Iran is concerned, years ago we got rid of a duly elected leader in favor of the Shah (not a nice man), accused them of any number of unlikely things, did a great job wrecking their economy at the behest of Israel, etc. (our list of offenses against Iran is long and has been going on for years) We, for instance, bankrolled Saddam's 5 year war with Saddam and also provided Saddam with little items like chemical gasses, etc. In other words, they hate us for pretty good reasons.

I, incidentally, would LOVE to see us just get the hell out of the ENTIRE mideast and let them get on with their thousand year old war without our troop, money or even best wishes. Anything and everything we try to do there becomes a failed money pit and there is exactly NOTHING there that we need or want.

I also suspect that the Jackass is working to get us into a shooting war with Iran in the hope it will raise his poll numbers. Our own military has consistently said that is something we REALLY do not want to do!


Edited by jgw (05/14/18 08:24 PM)

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#306754 - 05/15/18 04:15 AM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7773
Loc: North San Diego County
We've been in Afghanistam for 16 years and the Taliban and Al Queda are still there. No way to win, because they are coming from Pakistan! We're searching for our dropped car keys under the street light even though we dropped them over in the dark part of the parking lot (Pakistan) because the light is better here. WE ARE NEVER GOING TO FIND THEM!

Iran would be much worse. Not only are they allied with Russia, but they have a pretty high level of technology and the war would come to US soil. Some Saudis armed with box cutters already showed how that is possible. Sure, they can't do that same attack with domestic airplanes, but we have 1000 other vulnerabilities and thousands of miles of unguarded borders.

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#306755 - 05/15/18 06:39 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2062
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Again, EVERYTHING we do over there turns to sh*t! We keep doing the same thing, over and over and over in Afghanistan and NOTHING changes. Iran is now pretty much taking over the entire Shia area of Iraq which was bound to happen. The Iraq election was also interesting. They elected a Shia firebrand too.

I still think the Jackass is trying to get us into a war with Iran. That, of course, also means we will be at war with Russia and China won't be too long in joining in. It will, of course, make the military suppliers pretty happy as they will have to up their production and, again of course, their prices too. So far the Jackass has given us a trillion+ addition to the national debt and now a bit more to fight a war that should never happen. Oh, and the market is starting to slide. Sell now or hold on for the ride!

I wish us all good luck.

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#306828 - 05/25/18 05:19 PM Re: TRUMP 2020! [Re: chunkstyle]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 325
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
As we remember this Memorial Day, lets compare and contrast the President with Navel Academy Graduates


An Op-Ed from the Baltimore Sun - Trump has little advice to offer Naval Academy graduates


Remember, this November and November 2020.


Edited by Ujest Shurly (05/25/18 05:22 PM)
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