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#306693 - 05/10/18 06:30 PM The Democratic Plan
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I heard, last night, that the Dems plan, against the Republicans, is to attack about jobs and the economy. I would submit that this is absolutely crazy. Trump has, quite possibly, the best stats in years, ie. unemployment below 4%, booming economy, etc. If they do this they WILL lose!

My own thought is that they run a "we stand for, they stand for" campaign which should be easy to win and a no brainer. I also think that the Dems should start to claim to be the party of fiscal responsibility as they have, historically, been the party responsible for fixing financial disasters (for which the Republicans were responsible) from the Great Depression of 1929 to the Great Recession of 2008. This would also go far in reminding voters of just who is responsible for our financial disasters in the first place.


Edited by jgw (05/10/18 06:48 PM)

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#306696 - 05/10/18 08:50 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
If it means shifting the politics back to the issues of working families with real solutions (not the jibber jabber of job training, creative start up incubation, ladders of opportunity, etc..) then I'm all for it.

Yes, if you have an investment portfolio and enough disposable cash to throw into it then you might think the economy is doing pretty good. If you are in the precariot then your life has been consistently lousy. The labor share of GDP has been on a downward trajectory for decades while the gains have gone to financial markets. That's the only thing people quote nowadays including most liberals. The stock market.
Perhaps they are going to, at long last, declare themselves to be on the side of the working classes and poor, it's historic role, and announce real economic solutions that people can get behind?

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#306697 - 05/10/18 08:53 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Here's that other economic indicator:
Labor share


Edited by chunkstyle (05/10/18 10:27 PM)

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#306698 - 05/10/18 09:17 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13202
Loc: Whittier, California
Link doesn't work!
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#306700 - 05/10/18 10:55 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Fixed

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#306707 - 05/11/18 05:10 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
One bright point, for the Dems, is that there are financial gurus starting to warn of an economic downturn. The jackass has already worked over the agriculture folks (most of which are trumpites) and if he goes after nafta its more than 20,000 jobs in Texas alone. I think that China is actively looking for suppliers, other than those in America, to take care of what they need, due to the Trump tariff thing and the jackass continues to double down. Then there is also the Iran thing and it looks as though europe, asia, etc. are all going to continue to support the iran/nuclear agreement which means that we are going to get a lot more isolated both in trade as well as everything else. Its 6 months to the mid-terms and one can only wonder what happens if the economy tanks before that. Oh, there is also the Medicare and medicaid thing. That too is going to come home to roost, if the Dems even mention what is happening to them due to the "tax cut" and budget.

Anyway, we know the downturn is going to happen, its just a question of "how soon".

This is, probably, yet another exercise in wishful thinking <sigh>

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#306710 - 05/11/18 06:21 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
With all due respect, you seem to be taking a 'let em hang themselves given enough rope', JGW.
I disagree. It's time for bold populist proposals. That used to be the ground that democrats chose to fight on. It's ground from which they dominated congress for 5 decades was it not?



Edited by chunkstyle (05/11/18 06:22 PM)

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#306720 - 05/11/18 11:34 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Quote:
It's time for bold populist proposals.


Aint that the truth. It's not going to go well if everyone runs on the We Hate Trump platform, and at the moment that appears to be the plan of the DNC.
_________________________
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#306722 - 05/12/18 12:53 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Spag-hetti Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1662
Loc: Middle, USA
Danica Roem, a beautiful transgender woman, didn't win a seat in Virginia's House of Delegates by just campaigning for LGBTQ rights. She ran on a host of issues that concerned the voters.
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Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#306734 - 05/12/18 06:01 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: Spag-hetti]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16060
There are plenty of good, Democratic Values that Democrats can run on, and policy proposals that are not pie-in-the-sky. But, and I've said this often, they need to have specific proposals for rural America, too. Like public clinics, and educational support.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#306742 - 05/13/18 05:55 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Its "Us against Them" and, as far as I can see, ours make more sense and should be presented. On the other hand, go too far, and you will turn off the votes. In Seattle the left is proposing a head tax of 500.00 on every large company employee in Seattle. This includes Amazon. Amazon pays something like 250 MILLION dollars a year in taxes right now and the left has decided to nail them for another 20 million to fix its homeless problem. Skipping past the millions spent on studies and trials and sticking to the head tax. Amazon has stopped building project and put everything on hold until the head tax thing is solved. If they stick to it I suspect Amazon is gone and Seattle will lose something like 8,000 jobs and also the construction jobs and the added 2000 jobs that is all about. The left is doubling down because they claim to be in the right and Amazon has profits that they must spend to bail Seattle out of their homeless adventures. This is, as far as I am concerned, one of the most egregious and unthinking trip into waaaay too far I can give. If the left doesn't want the right to win and go the other way then they are going to have to use common sense instead the paean of shove it down their throats taxation, especially if its going to cost jobs, income, etc. I fully expect Amazon to put the plug on Seattle if they keep at it. The amazing thing about this is that apparently Amazon actually agreed if they cut the head tax to 250.00 a head. I should also mention that there are other large companies giving serious thoughts to moving too. Greed, in this case, has a price and, I fear, Seattle will be proving that one with vigor.

I guess I should mention that the homeless problem will continue to grow and more poor will be thrown out of their homes because of higher rates. This is a national problem and its an important one to solve. Picking a single financial segment, and then laying it all on them is not, I think, the answer.


Edited by jgw (05/13/18 05:59 PM)

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#306762 - 05/17/18 02:07 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Some interesting results on the left

[url=inthesetimes.com/article/21149/socialism_dsa_pennsylvania_election_may_15_summer_lee_democratic_party]Going left for a win?[/url]


Edited by chunkstyle (05/17/18 02:08 AM)

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#306763 - 05/17/18 02:39 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13202
Loc: Whittier, California


Edited by Jeffery J. Haas (05/17/18 02:39 AM)
_________________________
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#306766 - 05/17/18 12:34 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Thanks Jeff

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#306767 - 05/17/18 02:56 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6434
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I would have thought the first and only question one should ask of people is what do they expect of government.
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ignorance is the enemy
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#306778 - 05/19/18 06:18 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40930
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

Joe Biden is the Dems ONLY hope in 2020. Hmm
Maybe adding Bernie as VP would cinch the ticket. smile
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#306779 - 05/19/18 09:26 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13202
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pdx rick

Joe Biden is the Dems ONLY hope in 2020. Hmm
Maybe adding Bernie as VP would cinch the ticket. smile


They're on opposite ends of the Dem spectrum.
Bernie might be willing to work with Biden but I don't see how anyone can imagine Biden working with Bernie.
Look at Biden's past policy positions. He was the original anti-pot crusader, coined the term "Drug Czar".

What's Biden's positions on universal health care? How about subsidized secondary education? Biden-Sanders? Help me understand how that kind of thing works.

Help me understand how recycling old stuff works when we need a new approach and new blood? I like Bernie but he is damaged goods now, self inflicted.
Even Bernie's SON has enough sense to run AS A DEMOCRAT.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#306781 - 05/20/18 12:43 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Bernie is still the most popular politician so I guess the scratch and dents havnt damaged his resale value Jeff.
In case you missed it in the last election, the fix gets done in the primaries for the corporate wing of the Democratic Party.
I hardly think Bernie bending the knee to the DNC would have changed the outcome of their treatment of him. Unless you've gone full MACA, it's hard to miss this conclusion from all the reporting and internal leaks from the campaign.
The takeaway is alternative funding options now in place to support true progressives and have options beyond what the corporations decide who we can vote for (illiberal democracy were all enjoying now).
Finally, why would you ever vote for the corporate candidate that took monies from the same people who polluted the worlds economy, destroyed families, wiped out people's savings?
Because she had a D next to her name?
Rilly?

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#306782 - 05/20/18 03:31 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Bernie is still the most popular politician

Hillary 16,914,722 votes Bernie 13,206,428 votes

I guess he's the most popular if you count Republicans...

Quote:
the fix gets done in the primaries for the corporate wing of the Democratic Party

You know, that election where Democrats had a popular vote and the corporatists changed the results so it looked like Hillary got 3.7 million more votes than Bernie. ROTFMOL

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#306783 - 05/20/18 06:15 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
Bernie is still the most popular politician

Hillary 16,914,722 votes Bernie 13,206,428 votes

I guess he's the most popular if you count Republicans...

Quote:
the fix gets done in the primaries for the corporate wing of the Democratic Party

You know, that election where Democrats had a popular vote and the corporatists changed the results so it looked like Hillary got 3.7 million more votes than Bernie. ROTFMOL


Devoid of any contex, PIA, you might have a point. Yes Hillary got more votes in the primary. I won't bother with the details of how that primary played out.
I'm referring to Sanders polling currently. You hang on to that primary victory though. If it provides you comfort for the subsequent loss she suffered in the general.
Oh wait... She had the resume, the sophisticated analytics, the most powerful campaign machine known to man. How could she have...?
THE RUSSIANS!!!!

Go deep state, go!

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#306784 - 05/20/18 10:44 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6434
Loc: Highlands, Tx
An incredible confluence of history, the irony of a once in the history of America, a sitting president, who is so unqualified to be president, and who is in everyday violation of the Constitution, and yet there is, based on your arguments, no Democrats who can beat him in an election.

In a most Hagee fashion, I say God is punishing America.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#306785 - 05/20/18 02:32 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40930
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: pdx rick

Joe Biden is the Dems ONLY hope in 2020. Hmm
Maybe adding Bernie as VP would cinch the ticket. smile


They're on opposite ends of the Dem spectrum.
Bernie might be willing to work with Biden but I don't see how anyone can imagine Biden working with Bernie.

Biden has shown that he is capable of evolving™. Biden did just that on gay marriage. Hmm
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#306786 - 05/20/18 03:34 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: rporter314]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Originally Posted By: rporter314
An incredible confluence of history, the irony of a once in the history of America, a sitting president, who is so unqualified to be president, and who is in everyday violation of the Constitution, and yet there is, based on your arguments, no Democrats who can beat him in an election.

In a most Hagee fashion, I say God is punishing America.


It really says something about the Democratic Party doesn't it?

Joe Biden? God help us. The guy who's represented our eastern continental cayman island, pointlessly cultivating a 'lunch box' persona, gimmee a break. To his credit, he schooled Ryan in how a grift is done during their vice presidential debates. That was fun. His policies? Not so much.

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#306793 - 05/20/18 08:19 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
Yes, it says most of the Democratic Party is pretty damned centrist. I actually wish it was a bit more to the left. I think our government really should be sending every qualified applicant with a useful major through college and again those qualified through graduate school, so we can be competitive with the rest of the world. I think we should have single-payer for all, even if it radically reshapes the insurance and health care institutions. I think we need to keep up our infrastructure using government funding instead of building toll roads everywhere and pay-for-play fire departments.

Now, if I could just convince everybody else in the party...

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#306799 - 05/21/18 03:37 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Yes, it says most of the Democratic Party is pretty damned centrist. I actually wish it was a bit more to the left. I think our government really should be sending every qualified applicant with a useful major through college and again those qualified through graduate school, so we can be competitive with the rest of the world. I think we should have single-payer for all, even if it radically reshapes the insurance and health care institutions. I think we need to keep up our infrastructure using government funding instead of building toll roads everywhere and pay-for-play fire departments.

Now, if I could just convince everybody else in the party...


The Centrist control the party. It's subtle but makes a big difference PIA. I could understand how someone could confuse that. If your a right wing centrist you'll chose to ignore it.

I disagree that the party is right wing centrist. There's many issues that have broad majority support in the party but somehow go no where with the elected representatives.
Universal health care, campaign finance reform, repealing corporate personhood, legalize weed have broad popular support.
Progressives get smothered in the primaries. It's happening in my district as well as neighboring district. Outside funding structures have helped vault true progressives into primary races without help from DCCC.
And some of these progressives are winning against the party chosen candidates.
That's hopeful.
Or are you content with the complete wipeout of state governors mansions, the house, the senate, the White House and the Supreme Court?
Did the Russians make all that happen as well?

The Vig

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#306800 - 05/21/18 04:21 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40930
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Yes, it says most of the Democratic Party is pretty damned centrist. I actually wish it was a bit more to the left. I think our government really should be sending every qualified applicant with a useful major through college and again those qualified through graduate school, so we can be competitive with the rest of the world. I think we should have single-payer for all, even if it radically reshapes the insurance and health care institutions. I think we need to keep up our infrastructure using government funding instead of building toll roads everywhere and pay-for-play fire departments.

Now, if I could just convince everybody else in the party...

The only thought in your post that I would disagree with, is that I I would say that the Democratic party is more center-right than centrist.

Otherwise, I agree with the thoughts of your post. Hmm
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#306801 - 05/21/18 04:27 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: chunkstyle]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40930
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Quote:

Quote:
The Democrats lost about 1,000 seats in state legislatures over the course of the Obama years.

This statement completely ignores the fact that the GOP completely gerrymandered the Hell out of Districts and voter suppressed the minority vote.

Hmm

Quote:
...He and the 14 other white men on that committee treated Anita Hill’s testimony about sexual harassment with skepticism and hostility...

While true, I will go out on a limb and state that Joe Biden would not behave in the same manner today, twenty-five years later. smile

Quote:
iden voted for NAFTA in 1993 and the Iraq War in 2003. In 2007, campaigning for the Democratic presidential nomination in Iowa, he called the Iraq vote “a mistake.”

Would Fatass ever admit to making a mistake. Remember, Karl Rove came-up with the very clever box-them-into-a-corner line: "Either you're with us, or you're against us."

Hmm

Quote:
Biden championed the oxymoronic Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005. This law stripped consumers of bankruptcy protections while deregulating credit card issuers. At the time, the largest such company was MBNA—also one of Biden’s largest donors.

An indication of what a Biden White House might look like can be gleaned from looking at the 30 members on the advisory board of the Biden Institute, a policy outfit established last year at the University of Delaware. They include four people who have worked for hedge funds, three as bank executives, two as corporate consultants and one as the former CEO of the Democratic Leadership Council.

That was bad. I also knew when BAMZ!!! nominated Timothy Geithner as SecTres that nothing would change for the banking industry and it would be business as usual. cry

If Biden were serious about consumers, he'd campaign on restoring Glass-Steagall.

==========

Joe Biden nomination might not be able to check-off all of the boxes, but our Country needs a desperate "Hail Mary" pass in 2020. smile
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#306802 - 05/21/18 04:58 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
It would be nice if we could get a populist Democrat that was not well beyond retirement age to run. I'd hate to expend all the time, energy, and money to elect somebody and have him or her drop dead in office. That's one thing Obama had going for him. He was just 57 when he took office.

George Clooney is 57 now. Did you see him and his wife at the royal wedding? Looked pretty damned Presidential. Unlike Trump's pitiful excuse of a bio, Clooney's is pretty impressive. His wife's is even better.

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#306803 - 05/21/18 01:26 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Rick
What article are you quoting on Biden?

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#306805 - 05/21/18 03:19 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 314
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Biden is to old.
Sanders is to old.

The stress of the job stands a good chance of killing them.

Democrats need young blood.

George Clooney - not another actor, besides he is not qualified (however, President Donald (abuse of power and authority) Trump proved qualifications or lack there of are not a hindrance.

Now Amal Clooney is better qualified than her husband, it is a shame she is not a Natural Born citizen.

What about Cory Booker?

A dam shame Senator Tammy Duckworth is not a Natural Born Citizen.
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#306809 - 05/21/18 06:40 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6434
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I hope you are not saying these folks were born unnaturally. And beside, no modern conservative would know the difference. They have only read one amendment in the whole Constitution and don't understand it.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#306811 - 05/22/18 12:31 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 314
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Natural born as used in paragraph 5, section 1, Article II of the Constitution and defined in section 212, Chapter 19, book 1 of Vattel's Law of Nations - http://www.constitution.org/vattel/vattel_01.htm

At least, until SCOTUS is forced to define and decide the issue...

Then, THANK HEAVENS I'm not a conservative LOL


Edited by Ujest Shurly (05/22/18 12:32 AM)
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#306813 - 05/22/18 02:56 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
Clooney is a lot more than another actor. Read his bio on Wikipedia. He's a media star like Trump but he's actually won all sorts of awards for his humanitarian projects. He's married to a beautiful woman like Trump, but his wife is a world-renowned human rights lawyer. He's a businessman like Trump, but with zero bankruptcies and his tequila business sold for a billion dollars.

He's actually a descendant of Abraham Lincoln's mother and Rosemary Clooney's nephew, but came up from humble beginnings. His mother was a city councilwoman, his father an anchorman in Kentucky. He attended Catholic and public schools.

Every thing Trump has ever done, Clooney has done better. Usually a lot better. He even looks Presidential. Women want him and men want to be him.

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#306816 - 05/22/18 04:01 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40930
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
It would be nice if we could get a populist Democrat that was not well beyond retirement age to run. I'd hate to expend all the time, energy, and money to elect somebody and have him or her drop dead in office. That's one thing Obama had going for him. He was just 57 when he took office.

You mean 47. smile
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#306817 - 05/22/18 04:02 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40930
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Women want him and men want to be him.

I'd rather be like Andy Cohen, or Dan Savage. More like a hybrid of the two: Dan's smarts and Andy's happy-go-lucky nature. Hmm , smile
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#306820 - 05/22/18 10:42 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: pdx rick]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6434
Loc: Highlands, Tx
and he looked like a 67 year old, grey headed, white guy when he left

I'll bet when (and if) MR Trump leaves office he will look like he has a pocket full of money
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ignorance is the enemy
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#306834 - 05/27/18 01:10 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: rporter314]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Trump's hair is already looking worse and the fake tan has faded.

He's going to start aging very quickly now...It's a tough job.
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"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#306939 - 06/08/18 05:04 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
Great, now Trump is claiming making insurance companies cover preexisting conditions is unconstitutional. But that provision of the ACA is very popular, even with Republicans. This could really help Democrats in the midterms. Wiley Coyote has just dropped a big safe on his head!

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#306940 - 06/08/18 08:19 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13202
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Great, now Trump is claiming making insurance companies cover preexisting conditions is unconstitutional. But that provision of the ACA is very popular, even with Republicans. This could really help Democrats in the midterms. Wiley Coyote has just dropped a big safe on his head!


Trump and his Republican toadies have just consigned my son, and hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions, of Americans, to an early grave, because without the mandate to cover "preexisting conditions", they are now once again uninsurable, at any cost.

This president and this political majority have just turned the United States of America into a darwinian, dickensian nightmare, and as far as I'm concerned, I'd just as soon wipe my ass with the so called FLAG that represents it.

Congratulations, Republicans...you are now my sworn ENEMY forever.
Maybe it really IS time we turned America fully socialist, by any means necessary.
After all, it's clear that the majority of conservatives cannot be trusted to maintain even a shred of humanity when they hold the reins of power, it's too tempting for them to slurp up all that compassion and pronounce it as weakness.

I fully expect them to declare S-CHIP unconstitutional next. That way all those pro-life conservatives can screech about killing unborn fetuses while they cheerfully leave sick children to die on the table.

Trump groupies aren't taking stock of real people in the real world any longer. Trump is sh*tting on disabled vets, children of disabled vets, small business owners who use metal in their work, soldiers on active duty who might soon be called up to fight another stupid, pointless and unwinnable war and ordinary working people who will in the long run pay a lot more in taxes after the bait and switch token tax cut expires.

You're poorer, you're older, you're going to be sicker, you're going to make/keep less money in the long run, you're going to pay more for everything, your environment is going to degrade more, your nation's financial environment is at higher risk than it was in 2007-8, the young folks are going to be dumber and dumber and we're closer to war than ever before. And that's just a few of the big hits.

The Trump Express has cut all the seat belts, disconnected the air bags, disconnected the drop down oxygen masks, poked holes in the inflatable life rafts, loosened the lug nuts and put Tide detergent into the engine crankcase.
And you're acting like we're doing 140 on the Autobahn.

Trump has done the Democrats an enormous favor by cutting the preexisting conditions mandate from the ACA.
Republicans will die on this hill.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#306941 - 06/08/18 08:29 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Its just part of the onslaught on the "Entitled Economy". This includes any and all of Obamacare, Medicare, and Medicaid. Medicare, for instance, will be broke and done in 8 years. One of the interesting things is that we have been told that most of the hardcore supporters of the Jackass are either close to retiring or already there. We are in for interesting times.

If the Dems win in 2018 it will be interesting what they do. I can remember other times they were in charge and they did not, exactly, fill my heart with glee. It actually looks as if they missed the bullet in California so, hopefully, they actually have a chance at getting back the house and if they REALLY get out the vote they will own the Senate too.

I continue, however, to be concerned at how the Dems are going to win. Apparently they are sticking to the plan to make it all about Trump and letting the Republican right continue to burn and pillage with impunity and, apparently, only vaguely being reported by the news. A good example is the idiot in charge of the EPA. Instead of noting what he is doing they are reporting on his quirky, idiotic behavior. This morning, however, they did note that he rolled back clean water standards. I would, in other words, much rather like to see a concerted effort to list what the other side is for and then simply state that is not anything the Dems support. Anyway, I hope they are right (I have been so wrong, so many times, I have lost count <G>)

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#306945 - 06/08/18 11:20 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Republicans will die on this hill.

Maybe literally, once enough grieving parents bury their kids. Maybe Republicans need to see what happens when they sentence innocent people to die.

Just read about one DACA kid who was sent back to Mexico by ICE, and he was killed within a week.

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#306950 - 06/09/18 03:58 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16060
I hope you can give me a cite. I want to spread that.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#306951 - 06/09/18 04:01 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
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#306954 - 06/09/18 05:43 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
It was actually within three weeks, not one week.

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#307014 - 06/18/18 05:59 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I know, I am repeating myself. However, I don't think just bashing Trump is going to win the election for the Dems. It would be nice if they could actually bring themselves to even vaguely mention some of the stuff the Jackass administration is doing. You know, little stuff like lowering drinking water standards, dumping coal waste into running streams, tripling the rents of the poor, attacking our national parks, getting rid of medicare and medicaid, you know, the little stuff nobody seems to want to talk about.

I have often wondered if the Dems are even keeping track of what the right has been doing and producing a list that candidates could use. I have written to them and asked but couldn't get any answer, except, of course, a request for money as a response. Seems to me that their only real plan is to get a huge pile of money for I have no idea, at least the right can be counted on to actually put up ads every now and then.


Edited by jgw (06/18/18 07:19 PM)

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#307017 - 06/18/18 08:50 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
matthew Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/24/16
Posts: 353
Originally Posted By: jgw
I know, I am repeating myself. However, I don't think just bashing Trump is going to win the election for the Dems. It would be nice if they could actually bring themselves to even vaguely mention some of the stuff the Jackass administration is doing. You know, little stuff like lowering drinking water standards, dumping coal waste into running streams, tripling the rents of the poor, attacking our national parks, getting rid of medicare and medicaid, you know, the little stuff nobody seems to want to talk about.

I agree with you, but the problem is getting these facts into the gibberish of American media.

At this point, the only way it might be done is to be as outrageous as Trump in making their points, but this would just increase the inanity of what passes for public discourse in the United States of Hysteria.
.
_________________________
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It is far easier to deceive folks than to convince them they are deceived

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#307021 - 06/19/18 02:18 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Seems to me that their only real plan is to get a huge pile of money for I have no idea


They are well aware of every crappy thing the right and Trump have done. They will be running campaigns for November and in 2020. To do that takes money. Fund raising IS the start of every campaign, unless you think they can just talk about those issues and everyone will magically hear them. They are doing that right now and you are apparently not even aware of it, because it's not very effective. Free speech costs money, if you want lots of people to hear it.

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#307027 - 06/20/18 01:17 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Money doesn't come for free.
You can't back popular positions and win broad support if your money tells you not to.
What you can do is play identity politics devoid of any meaningful impact on most peoples daily lives in any significant way except some minority of people.
Get completely wiped out in an election cycle and become more convinced that the corporate strategy will work with some fine tuning.
It may work once in a while. Perhaps it will in this upcoming mid term by not being trump. But like Clinton's campaign, it's not exactly running for anything.
Democratic Party leardership can't get over Mondales loss and realize what time it is.
Centrism seems to have lead to facism in the western democracies. This seems to have been missed by the Democratic corporate board members.

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#307028 - 06/20/18 05:27 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I get dunned for money at least 6 times a day. If I assign said dunning to spam it makes no difference as it will be replaced. I can't even figure out how they are doing that. I do know that, after about 100 dunnings I just ignore them all. I know some of them running. When I mention this to them they just sigh and shrug their shoulders. It just gets irritating. When one considers that they are verging on a half a BILLION dollars, so far, their begging for money becomes egregious.

I live in the State of Washington. I have yet to see a single ad put up by the Dems simply stating just what the right has been doing or anything else. We are about 5 months out to the mid terms. I have seen Republican ads. I simply don't get it. When I asked the DNC for a list of bad perpetrated by the right I got no response - I did, however, get yet another dunning.

According to below they have now spent $345,716,758.00 I can only wonder where it went. My suspicion is that it went for salaries, studies, and really important secret stuff.

Here are the amounts collected, so far, for 2018 according to https://www.opensecrets.org/parties/
Total Raised Total Spent Cash on Hand Debts
Democratic Party $438,056,693 $345,716,758 $127,189,762 $11,113,834
Republican Party $563,814,978 $374,700,205 $135,368,055 $1,682,106
Democratic National Cmte $96,232,064 $99,135,089 $8,885,973 $5,306,565
Republican National Cmte $184,542,202 $166,038,866 $43,831,348 $0
Democratic Congressional Campaign Cmte $150,923,261 $95,773,024 $61,832,481 $0
National Republican Congressional Cmte $121,609,612 $73,401,659 $59,644,415 $0
Democratic Senatorial Campaign Cmte $76,265,075 $47,283,165 $32,280,736 $4,194,420
National Republican Senatorial Cmte $63,896,172 $54,249,229 $16,779,880

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#307032 - 06/20/18 06:15 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
I've posted this link before and it's worth remembering the utter and complete graft and incompetence of the corporate democratic party.

Centrist Incompetence


An annihilation of an election and the rules committee is still rearranging the deck chairs and hoping for a big win in November by not being a republican. In the same vain that Clinton's organization was hoping for a Trump nomination so they could make that garbage barge of a candidate look good in comparison.
There are other, much more credible, financing organizations out there if you are looking to re-take the democratic party back from these greed head Eisenhower republicans who've managed to utterly and completely run it into the ground.

Justice Democrats
Our Revolution
Working Families Party

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#307080 - 06/24/18 03:21 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
"The Democratic leadership appears determined to alienate, as often and thoroughly as possible, the very people who could lift it to victory in 2018 and beyond: not just black women (who famously put Senator Doug Jones over the top in Alabama last December), but pretty much everybody to the left of Chuck Schumer."

No ideas no solutions from centrist Dems for the win!

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#307096 - 06/25/18 06:45 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
My wishful thinking believes that those who do not agree with the Jackass, and his minions, will vote democratic irregardless of disagreements one might have with others on the left. For instance, if you are not for trade wars, imprisoning children and babies, withdrawing from allies we have had for a very long time, believe in trade, changing drinking water standards (making them less stringent), believe in climate change, privatizing public schools, etc then I would think the only option is to vote democratic.

Basically, if you support the Jackass, then you are for all of the above and a LOT more. My problem, of course, is that none of this kind of stuff is being said by anybody on the left. Instead it would seem that much of the democratic hierarchy are going to stick to their guns, call all the shots, and waste all the money. I REALLY hope I am dead wrong!!!

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#307101 - 06/26/18 04:14 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Basically, if you support the Jackass, then you are for all of the above and a LOT more.


Ayup. They are. And they are proud of it. They don't think like us, and they think we're crazy for not thinking like them. I call it the Trayvon Martin effect...Every Republican everywhere immediately sided with the killer. Every Democrat everywhere immediately sided with the victim.

Weird, huh?
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307113 - 06/27/18 03:18 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886

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#307114 - 06/27/18 06:24 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3818
Loc: Eugene, OR
Thing is--it matters not what Donald says or does. In fact, the more outrageous to the left.. the better his followers will love him. He could indeed shoot someone on the corner (as long it was a nigger or a spic) and he would in deed be forgiven.

Even cheered on by his tribe. We have come to that folks. Get used to it.

It goes downhill from here.
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#307115 - 06/27/18 07:01 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: Ken Condon]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3818
Loc: Eugene, OR
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#307116 - 06/27/18 03:26 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
"The point is that she’s a leftist, an activist, a member of the Democratic Socialists of America. Crowley and his ilk identify as liberals. It’s safe to say, at this point, that much of the groundswell around Ocasio-Cortez stemmed from the fact that she was not offering more of the same bullshit the Democrats always try to sell us—a critical distinction that helped her win."

progressives fight on issues, pearl clutching centrist dems suprised (again)

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#307117 - 06/27/18 03:32 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Meanwhile, DCCC breaks it's teeth in the 24th (and wasted 300K on another loser) by trying to pick the candidate over the district voters.

back story

Howd that work out...

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#307118 - 06/27/18 03:33 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
O.K.,
Back to the Trump...

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#307121 - 06/27/18 06:48 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
Actually, she won by going around the district in a classic door-to-door campaign, introducing herself to voters. She is the same ethnicity as a lot of people in the district. Her platform includes lots of things people in the working-class district like. And the incumbent lives in Arlington, Virginia!

He didn't tend his garden, so to speak. That's pretty important for a Representative. I don't think she won so much because of her positions. She won because she was there in the district and he wasn't.

Good for her, I say. He has a pretty important Democratic Party position that he retains, and he is supporting her run.

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#307125 - 06/27/18 07:00 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Actually, she won by going around the district in a classic door-to-door campaign, introducing herself to voters. She is the same ethnicity as a lot of people in the district. Her platform includes lots of things people in the working-class district like. And the incumbent lives in Arlington, Virginia!

He didn't tend his garden, so to speak. That's pretty important for a Representative. I don't think she won so much because of her positions. She won because she was there in the district and he wasn't.

Good for her, I say. He has a pretty important Democratic Party position that he retains, and he is supporting her run.


Identity politics for the win!!!

Couldn't have anything to do with the destructive class economic struggles the constituents have been facing and she spoke directly too.

Musta been her ethnic identity she projected going door to door.


Edited by chunkstyle (06/27/18 07:04 PM)

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#307127 - 06/27/18 07:13 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
She also completely ignored the Jackass! Good for her. The dem establishment, however, seem to be inclined to make it all about the Jackass. That is, of course, exactly what he wants. Hopefully there will be others that also ignore him as, I think, that is the way to win.

its really strange. She also claims to be a socialist. I have always believed that a socialist wanted the state to run ALL means of production. Apparently there is a new kind of socialism? Bernie, for instance, also seems to be a socialist that doesn't believe that the state should own all means of production. I guess I am not understanding this stuff. I am also not a socialist (as far as I can tell)

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#307132 - 06/27/18 08:21 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Originally Posted By: jgw
She also completely ignored the Jackass! Good for her. The dem establishment, however, seem to be inclined to make it all about the Jackass. That is, of course, exactly what he wants. Hopefully there will be others that also ignore him as, I think, that is the way to win.

its really strange. She also claims to be a socialist. I have always believed that a socialist wanted the state to run ALL means of production. Apparently there is a new kind of socialism? Bernie, for instance, also seems to be a socialist that doesn't believe that the state should own all means of production. I guess I am not understanding this stuff. I am also not a socialist (as far as I can tell)


I agree with your observation, JGW. The party corporate wing that is firmly in the leadership positions are driving the strategy. As far as I can tell that strategy is 'were not republicans' and little else. there stunning lack of imagination and ideas indicates to me that they arn't allowed to have any. Can't upset the donor class, etc...
As far as socialism goes, it's no wonder most of the older public (myself included) has no idea what socialism or Marxists critiques of capitalism are all about, though that may be changing now. Those areas of study had been driven out of the academy by the corporate right long ago as you might recall. Same time as it was purged from the entertainment industry. Hard to imagine a movie like "It's a wonderful life" or 'The Apartment' being made today.
I've found Richard Wolf a relatable economist to explain it and his conversation with Chris Hedges he did recently might be worth a watch:

Socialist critique of the current economic crisis

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#307140 - 06/28/18 04:30 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886

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#307144 - 06/28/18 03:17 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I have always believed that a socialist wanted the state to run ALL means of production.


"Socialism", in and of itself, has been a remarkable failure wherever it's been tried. Mostly due to corruption and leaders like Fidel Castro who got drunk on their new power and didn't go home when their time was up.
Democratic Socialism on the other hand, has been remarkably successful.

**edit** To be more clear, Social Democracy has been a remarkable success, but our own Social Democrats like Bernie et al are calling themselves Democratic Socialists. There is a difference....but who am I to blow against the wind.
Social Democrats are generally not in favor of of nationalizing industry.


Edited by Greger (06/28/18 03:23 PM)
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307150 - 06/28/18 04:09 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40930
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Quote:
The Democratic Plan

There's a plan? coffee
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Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#307151 - 06/28/18 04:10 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40930
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
You know, that election where Democrats had a popular vote and the corporatists changed the results so it looked like Hillary got 3.7 million more votes than Bernie. ROTFMOL

I thought you were talking about the 2000 election. gobsmacked
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#307152 - 06/28/18 04:12 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: chunkstyle]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40930
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Yes Hillary got more votes in the primary. I won't bother with the details of how that primary played out.

Three words: Debbie Wasserman-Schultz

coffee
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#307154 - 06/28/18 05:25 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Marxist economist Richard Wold has a few videos out there to explain his version of socialism that seem to make sense to me. He's also a big proponent of worker co-operatives rather than a top/down management style that is capitolism.
Worker co-operatives come in many flavors. One of the more notable is the Mondragon Corporation from the Basque region of Spain:

Modragon

I have a lot of their electrical components in my milling equipment. Telecomunique does PLC controls and switches. They also have flag ship appliance names in Europe.

There is a history of worker co-op's in this country and abroad. It's often a brutal history and has ben quashed in this country except for some 'profit sharing' or 'worker owned' type companies. Decision hierarchy is practically the same as a regular capitalist organized company. Basically, for worker co-ops, the decision making is more leveled and it's core principles are more humanist and less extractive.

Wolf has done some provocative analysis of our current political situation by linking it to the deficiencies of capitalism. A Marxist critique worth listening too.




Edited by chunkstyle (06/28/18 05:28 PM)

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#307157 - 06/28/18 10:16 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: pdx rick]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3818
Loc: Eugene, OR
There's a plan?

_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#307158 - 06/29/18 01:40 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: pdx rick]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Quote:
There's a plan? coffee

There is no plan. Mueller won't save us. There will be no "blue wave".
Ruth Bader Ginsburg likely won't last out Trump's first term.
Obamacare is dead in the water. Roe vs Wade is under heavy fire and likely will be struck down soon. All that living wage and free college tuition stuff...? Peace in the Middle East? Fuhgeddaboudit.

Trump is just hitting his stride. Things are going to get a whole lot worse.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307159 - 06/29/18 04:44 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886

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#307163 - 06/29/18 03:47 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Excellent plan...defeat the Democrats!

And if you don't get a candidate progressive enough to suit your needs stay home in protest or vote third party.

Democrats are divided, and as much as we like to talk about divisions in the Republican Party, they will all vote Republican and they will all vote. They LOVE Trump. He's kicking ass and taking names.

so while you dream of youthful activists and firebrands creating a brave new Utopian Socialist Democracy the United States will descend into fascism.

Now...don't get me wrong, I'm all for candidates like Ocasio-Cortez, I'll vote as far left as the candidates presented on election day will allow. But if I get some corporate assed, bought out, DINO lackey on my ticket I'll vote for him as quickly as I would a Democratic Socialist. Because he will vote against Republicans on most issues.

I'm not trying to change the world. I'm just hoping to someday(maybe in my lifetime) claw back what we lost in 2016. I'll survive Donald Trump. But there's a good chance that the next president will be my last. I could die happy if he/she was a Democrat, but that's looking less and less likely as the Democratic Party slips into infighting over ideological purity.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307164 - 06/29/18 06:05 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
The problem with the Dems is, I think, a complete lack of leadership. The Dem establishment, for instance, are all close to or over 75 years old. This is the same group of geniuses that stood by whilst the Republicans took over something like 80% of the state houses and then proceeded to gerrymander the hell out of things. If the current establishment is not willing to step aside, then they should be replaced because they are responsible for what is going on, right now. If they are smart enough to step aside they might be able to influence who does what - otherwise there is going to be a free for all which is probably not a good idea.

It all seems to simple to me. If you do not agree with what the right has been doing, and what it believes then vote Democratic. The right is making no bones as to what they believe and what they want to do. On the left (Democrats) I am not real sure who is in charge or if anybody is in charge. As far as what they want to do and believe, that too seems up in the air. My only problem with that is that I have yet to see a single add, or a single thought by one of the lefty talking heads, about the actions or the beliefs of the right as they are too busy talking about Trump and his actions - there is a LOT more going on! Do not fall for voting for somebody 'better' vote democratic. Then, if the Dems win, go ahead and fight for what you want in the local, state or federal conventions.

The current big deal are the children taken from parents. That is actually the top of the iceburg. I don't think they know what children belong to who. We do know that they have actually sent parents of children being held back to their country whilst keeping the children. I don't even think they have actually kept paper work or who belongs to who. Its also interesting that the military is not real enthusiastic about starting concentration camps on their bases.

Interesting times................

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#307167 - 06/29/18 06:42 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
Keeping the kids is the most insane thing they could do. What are the future plans for these kids? Do you spend tons of money raising them and then deport them when they turn 18? Do you just declare them citizens? (Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of anti-immigrationists?) Making MORE "dreamers" except their dreams are nightmares. The lack of a long term plan is the elephant in the room.

Not to mention that I wonder about the wisdom of giving a bunch of kids to the kind of people who would support tearing kids away from their parents. That sounds like a sure thing for child molesters! How many of these girls are going to end up pregnant? How many boys sodomized? How many dead? How many future recruits of MS-13?

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#307169 - 06/29/18 08:20 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The problem with the Dems is, I think, a complete lack of leadership.


Yes everything is the fault of Democrats. Their leadership wasn't as corrupt as Republican leadership. They took the high road when they should have been playing as dirty as their counterparts across the aisle. They didn't sell out to corporations as quickly or completely.
They chose to back queers, brown and black people, poor people and all sorts of unsavory characters because they believe that everyone actually has equal rights under the Constitution.

They don't give a flying feck at a rolling doughnut about a bunch of foriegn kids. If the parents hadn't broken the law they families would still be together. End of story. That's what the successful Republican leadership you so admire for their victories at the polls has fomented among their followers.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307172 - 06/29/18 09:56 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
If I were an immigration attorney I would be foaming at the mouth. What an opportunity! Think about it. The United States government separated a mother/father from their child then threw the father out of the country without giving him/her back their child. This is, basically, kidnapping. I am not sure what it will cost the government for this little error in judgment but, I betcha, it will be substantial. We are also being told that they didn't just do this to a single child but a LOT more and every one of those parents will have a right to sue the gov for kidnapping their child. Considering the pain and suffering involved I would submit that the American taxpayers are going to have to pickup a substantial tab before this one plays out.

I can only assume that there are attorneys lining up offering to 'help'.

Interesting times..................

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#307175 - 06/29/18 10:55 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
The problem with the Dems is, I think, a complete lack of leadership.


Yes everything is the fault of Democrats. Their leadership wasn't as corrupt as Republican leadership. They took the high road when they should have been playing as dirty as their counterparts across the aisle. They didn't sell out to corporations as quickly or completely.
They chose to back queers, brown and black people, poor people and all sorts of unsavory characters because they believe that everyone actually has equal rights under the Constitution.

They don't give a flying feck at a rolling doughnut about a bunch of foriegn kids. If the parents hadn't broken the law they families would still be together. End of story. That's what the successful Republican leadership you so admire for their victories at the polls has fomented among their followers.


Centrist third way democratic leadership has instituted the policies and direction of the party since Bill aclintons administration and has lead to ruinious results. It is time for a course correction and that is what the fight is about. Unless, as JGW pointed out with respect to the across the board declines at the local, state and federal level is somehow an aberration which will pass. I prefer a course correction.
Punching left while moving right has removed almost all the avenues of redress for working people. This was not always so.
I identify the party with bold initiatives, strong social and economic justice platforms. This has been the roots of the Democratic Party. Third way centrism was a concerted effort away from those platforms. I suggest it has lead to a large disenfranchised swath of working class, organized labor and progressive voters.
Are you suggesting we unify under the current status quo and, if so, could you articulate what that platform is and why it would be a winner with all evidence to the contrary?
Finally, I ain't dreaming anything bubba. I'll match my record of organizing and participation with anyone on this board over these last 18 months. Cortez was clear about her platform and articulated her positions elagantly and without ambiguity. It may not win in every district in America but it served to illustrate the tone deafness and dysfunction of centrists trying to win over republicans by being, well, republicans and abandoning it traditional base.

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#307176 - 06/29/18 10:58 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Such an optimist! How did the lawsuits work out for the victims of the holocaust?

You imagine there is a proper paper trail to link the parents to the children....?

Parents...without proper documentation. From villages somewhere in Central America, sent willy nilly to random federal holding pens.
Their children taken, most with zero in the way of actual identification...and bussed randomly to holding pens in other states. To be folded eventually into foster care and adoption. The parents will simply be deported.

Seems a little cruel. But they shouldn't have broken the law.

Word gets out on the streets and those brown people will get the message that they aren't welcome in Trump's America.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307177 - 06/29/18 11:16 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Centrist third way democratic leadership has instituted the policies and direction of the party since Bill Clinton's administration and has lead to ruinous results.

I don't know if I'd call it ruinous. Marijuana is almost legal in the US. Gay folks are able to marry their partners. We nearly had a workable insurance program and if the states had been compelled to expand Medicaid then there would really have been an effective national insurance program that covered everybody. We have avoided additional wars since W. decided it would be fun to be a Wartime President. Gasoline is cheap. Unemployment in low single digits.
There was still much to be done but Democrats were working on it.
We could have had a minimum wage increase, maybe even free college tuition and an easing up on student loans. We were on a roll, baby!
Meaningful immigration reform, more environmental regulation, a turn to renewables over fossil fuels and battling global warming...

Quote:
Are you suggesting we unify under the current status quo


You go to war with the army you have...not the army you wish you had.
But no. I'm not suggesting anything. It's over. The fascists won.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307178 - 06/30/18 03:57 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Centrist third way democratic leadership has instituted the policies and direction of the party since Bill Clinton's administration and has lead to ruinous results.

I don't know if I'd call it ruinous. Marijuana is almost legal in the US. Gay folks are able to marry their partners. We nearly had a workable insurance program and if the states had been compelled to expand Medicaid then there would really have been an effective national insurance program that covered everybody. We have avoided additional wars since W. decided it would be fun to be a Wartime President. Gasoline is cheap. Unemployment in low single digits.
There was still much to be done but Democrats were working on it.
We could have had a minimum wage increase, maybe even free college tuition and an easing up on student loans. We were on a roll, baby!
Meaningful immigration reform, more environmental regulation, a turn to renewables over fossil fuels and battling global warming...

Quote:
Are you suggesting we unify under the current status quo


You go to war with the army you have...not the army you wish you had.
But no. I'm not suggesting anything. It's over. The fascists won.


Well, there's a lot here to refute and I would wonder why it even needs to be done but here goes....
Weed legalization has been building st the state level where you're as likely to find a coalition of progressive Dems, libertarians, socialist and greed head republicans looking to cash in on an emerging market. A market, by the way, that ironically discriminates against minorities as it excludes those convicted of drug offenses from participating.
Progressives and socialists wanted Medicare for all (single payer) at the get go. Obama and the corporate centrist killed that off for the benefit of the insurance industry. Means testing for everyone and a Byzantine market place to frolic in...YAY!!!
Centrist did not join the call for a minimum wage increase. What would their donors say?!
No more wars?!!! Syria, Libya, sidelining the Arab spring in Egypt. Drone strikes, Yemen. Militarizing the Russian borders with armored cavalry and naval ships.
Free college tuition was pushed by Sanders campaign. Derided as promising rainbows and unicorns by centrist Dems.
I did appreciate Obama's efforts for implementing renewable energy. Progressive left wants to do better. Calling for a massive investment in renewable energy and the jobs that it will require.

"You go to war with the army you have...not the army you wish you had"

Rilly? Now your just trolling by paraphrasing Rumsfeld.

You may wish to pack it in and declare surrender, I think the sanders plan offers possibilities.

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#307181 - 06/30/18 03:40 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Oh, I LOVED the Sanders plan.

I was okay with the Clinton plan too.

But what we have is the Trump Plan. Sanders and Clinton(and me and you) will be long dead and gone before we get out of this mess. Assuming there is actually a way out.

Quote:
You may wish to pack it in and declare surrender

Oh, I have. The United States as we have known it is dead. It's over pal. Democrats will be forced farther to the right to maintain even a semblance of relevancy.



Edited by Greger (06/30/18 03:57 PM)
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307183 - 06/30/18 08:05 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
Really? Give up already? We haven't even eaten any rich people yet! No senators have been knifed yet on the Senate steps! (Julius Caesar pun intended.)

America has a rich tradition of extra-legal action when some group or another is pushed too far. We have a HUGE number of guns and not every gun owner is a conservative.

Evangelicals can't stuff the genie back in the bottle: All the things they want require people to suddenly believe in things they don't, and that's not going to happen. Their goals were always unrealistic.

The rich have their tax cut, but that and everything else they do to make income disparity worse, just turn America into a Third World shithole country where you get TB just from getting out of your limo to go in the opera house and the streets are filled with armed robbers.

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#307186 - 06/30/18 10:27 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Quote:
turn America into a Third World shithole country where you get TB just from getting out of your limo to go in the opera house and the streets are filled with armed robbers.


I'm thinking it might get worse than that.

Think mid-thirties depression era with no FDR in sight.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307187 - 06/30/18 11:52 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Quote:
All the things they want require people to suddenly believe in things they don't, and that's not going to happen. Their goals were always unrealistic.


That's what I'm saying about Progressives.


I'm not saying they're wrong...I'm just saying there's no way to get from where we are to where they want to be.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307198 - 07/01/18 05:15 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: Greger]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3818
Loc: Eugene, OR
This idea is what I, and possibly Greger, have been trying to express. It is from the NYTimes--the “Failing NYTimes” as our esteemed Leader so fondly refers to.

I hope the link opens.

I am a subscriber.. being the shameless “liberal” I am.

Sail la Vee:

Quote:
is threatening to shatter the already fragile architecture of the Democratic Party, as an activist rebellion on the left and a lurch to the right in Washington propels the party toward a moment of extraordinary conflict and forced reinvention.

For Democrats, the transformation could prove as consequential as President Trump’s consolidation of power in his own party and the conservative movement’s tightening grip on the federal government.

“The Trump presidency has changed the dynamics in our party,” said Richard J. Durbin of Illinois, the second-ranking Democrat in the Senate, acknowledging that he could not call recall a similar grass-roots uprising since he was elected to Congress in 1982.


Link
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#307199 - 07/01/18 01:14 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
I guess it may come as a shock to some and a logical historical conclusion to others over our current political realities. Any system or organization that demands strict loyalty to that system and is immune to critique is gunna rot from the inside out.
There's many ways to look at the current situation. The New York Times would not be one of them. They wouldn't see the upset primary election of Cortez coming if you slapped it up on the side of a bus and ran it thru Manhattan.
That last presidential can and has been interpreted a million ways by now. One thing remains obvious to those left of center is the all to familiar centrists response. Laying blame for everything and everyone around who may not have been in lock step with the candidate, their platform or parties conduct during the primary.
A lot of howling and nashing of teeth at Russians, Sanders supporters, Comey, etc...
To bring up chosen party direction (neoliberal policies under Clinton's, identity politics) the flawed preselecting of a vastly unpopular candidate (not just fox viewers by the way), an ambiguous campaign message (I'm with Her!, America is already Great!) the complete lack of understanding to recognize the anger and frustration brewing for decades now and pulling to the right by a facist element capitolizing on that anger and a left wing being constantly told to sit down and shut up.
Boomer centrist turned their backs on organized labor, economic justice and the new deal as soon as they became the dominant force in politics. That alone is worthy of exploration. What's striking is their inability to grasp the reality that those decisions have brought about.
I could go on but let's talk about something nice like Russia meddling or the Mueller investigation.



Edited by chunkstyle (07/01/18 03:27 PM)

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#307204 - 07/01/18 05:48 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16060
Chunk, my friend, you forget we're on the same side. It's not an "either/or thing," it is a "yes/and" thing. Neither the "centrist" Democrats nor the "left wing" can win on their own. That's reality. The Democratic coalition is bigger than both, by a large margin. All of the complaints of both wings can still be true. Yes, the party leadership needs to change. Yes, the party is stultifying, and right of the majority of members. Yes, the energy is on the left of the party. But, we also need to bring voters in from the center - which means rural interests have to be balanced with urban ones. We need to have a plan that will get a majority of votes in all of the States. I think there are a number of solutions that would be popular and can be sold in a number of markets. Many of the best are on the left side of the margin, but they have to be sold to the center and right as well.

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#307205 - 07/01/18 06:38 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Amazing! Somehow the Democratic party is now a fragile group of people at war with one another. The world, as we know it, is ended and there is little anybody can do about it. Sorry, not amazing, just flat out strange.

Those who stand for the existing, aged, incompetent rulers of the Democratic party do, however, amaze me. On their watch, the current group stood above it all whilst the Right took over 80% of state legislatures. This is a simple fact, it happened, and those who claim the mantle of running the Democratic party also get the mantle of incompetence. I think its a mental state. Hillary set the bar when, over at least a 40 year period, she never fought back as it would not be seemly to fight back against obviously insane accusations. Our congress alone, in the last couple of years spent huge amounts trying to nail her for something. They didn't, but at the same time, they painted her for the voters and she lost because she had been well and truly demonized. The same thing is now happening to Pelosi who has been kinda the second target and now has risen to #1 and is now who gets the treatment next.

Anyway, I, for one, do not feel that the Dems have been fighting back with any real will. Whilst not fighting back they have also seemed to have blown through piles of money for little or no victory. The right is all about 'winning'. That's it, nothing more and nothing less. The left, at the same time has been incredibly civilized about it all. They stand above the mud and accusations and all the rest of it. The result is what we have, right now. The left will lose the supreme court and there is a growing belief that, in spite of the ongoing offense of the right against what we all, supposedly, know to be right and true, just might not overcome in 2018. There comes a point when the left should wake up and smell the roses! Whatever they have been doing it has not helped them win elections.

I am, incidentally, not completely alone in this one. The late night comedians are starting to recognize what I have been say, some more than others - I hope its going to help. I firmly believe that there are more 'us' than 'them' and we are on the side of right. Our problem continues to be the same, our side cannot be counted on to vote, our leaders refuse to actually fight back with any vigor and, seemingly, accept personal demonization. On the other side THEY ALL VOTE, attack one and there is an immediate response. Its pretty evident, one side understands the system and the other side, well, you know.

Then there is the girl who won in an 'upset'. This one makes no sense. She was a woman who has been running, we are told, for 3 solid years. They say that she has rang every doorbell and knocked on every door, not once, not twice, but three times. She took the time to explain what, exactly, she believes and what she would like to accomplish. From what I can tell she is a bright, educated, well spoken woman who worked her ass off against a man who had been in congress for 20 years, obviously more interested in his own success than his own constituency, rang no doorbells, didn't live in the district, and was (surprise!) above it all. She didn't upset anything, she won a race, fair and square because she did the work!

Then there is all the talk about far left and centrist. Another one I do not understand. I firmly believe, for instance, that a for profit healthcare system makes no sense. This is not a philosophic belief but based on the simple fact that the rest of the world has determined that the way to go is with a healthcare system not based on profit. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. In the rest of the world they pay, on average, something like 25% of what we pay. This seems to be sane and the way to go. I don't consider this to be far left so much as sane. The same applies to some of those other 'far left' ideas as well.

Remember - the difference between right and left is, basically, that the left believes that we need regulation to succeed and the right believes regulation is an affront against freedom. I think one of the most telling things about this has to do with the economy. The jackass is building up to what I believe is going to be one of the very worst of financial downturns. He has brought us close to bankruptcy with the trillion dollar debt, destroyed medicare and medicaid making sure that healthcare will become, yet again, the major source of personal bankruptcy, etc. This one boggles. There has not been a single Republican administration that has not ended with a financial downturn since before 1929! When they run, however, I cannot remember a single time when the left pointed out the responsibility of the right. When thousands were losing jobs, in 2008, it was just a given. If the left was awake they would have reported it every freaking day!

Just saying...........

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#307207 - 07/01/18 07:20 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
If the left was awake they would have reported it every freaking day!

You are equating "the left" with "the press". I wish it was true but it's not. The press feels an obligation to "fairness" which means a balance of stories that report things in a neutral manner. So when the President lies blatantly, they report the new lie without calling it a lie. When Nazis march, they report on the positive aspects of White Pride instead of calling them murderers.

They seem to think they have to be fair, when actually they have an obligation to report the truth. That won't be "balanced" if one side is always doing evil things.

As for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: We (America) need 10000 more like her. People who DESERVE to be Representatives, Senators, Governors, and President. She ran a campaign the old-fashioned way, ringing doorbells and talking to the people about what matters to them.

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#307211 - 07/01/18 09:23 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I am not equating the left with the press. I meant exactly what I said, ie. "THEY would have reported", ie. the left/Democrats. If the left, for instance, was responsible for an economic downturn that costs billions to bail out of and thousands lose their jobs then the right/Republicans would be talking about that every 15 minutes 24 hours a day. The left/Democrats, on the other hand barely mention it. The right, I think, understand that the general electorate has a really bad memory and lives at the moment. So, they get something with traction they beat it to death. If the right/Republicans get something with traction it may last a week and sometimes even 2 and then it goes away. We all say "we all know about that why do they keep saying it?" The simple fact is that this is part of gaslighting/demonization/lying and it works. The 'fair' press too is at blame, they don't call them out on their lies with any vigor - they just ignore it. That is another reason why they have success. (to be fair media is actually calling them out more than previously)

They reason the jackass is getting such numbers (economic) is because of the groundwork laid by Obama (in spite of the Republicans fighting him each step of the way and not allowing any legislation after healthcare). The jackass has, literally, claimed he did it all and its rare anybody challenges that because he does it regularly and its become "just the way it is". There are occasional references to Obama but not a concerted effort to pound it into everybody's brain - the right/Republicans do not make that mistake.

I believe that we have much on our side, especially given what the right has been doing. They have actually reduced drinking water standards! They have seriously increased the debt so that the very rich can be richer and call it a tax cut. I can go on and on and so can you. The simple fact, however, is that most of it, if its not current, is never mentioned.

There is a reason, for instance, that in red states even the poor voted for the jackass. They are only exposed to the message from the right and, I think, that is because the left has simply abandoned. If I remember correctly the preachers of the right, the Lord's chosen, get to now preach politics from the pulpits. I can remember a time when they would have lost their tax exemptions for something like this. In other words the right reward the greedy and they get away with it. Again, thee and me can probably go on forever but ask the guy in the street about something that happened 2 months ago and its unlikely he would have a clue - unless it was something good for the right because they do not allow folks to forget!

One last. When was the last time you heard that the reason the Jackass can backout so much of what Obama did is because it was not legislated, it was done by decree (for which Obama caught it not only from the right but also the left). The reason Obama had to do it by decree is because the Republicans promised, on TV, that they would (and did) fight any legislation Obama tried to pass so he didn't have a choice. The real miracle of Obama was that he did fairly well in spite of the ban on any "Obama Legislation". This was, as far as I am concerned, yet another example of the Democrats not explaining, and exploiting, something.

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#307218 - 07/02/18 02:10 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Lots to agree with here JGW.

I would also add that a good start for a comeback would be to have the democratic leadership stop putting their thumbs on the scale in the primaries and simply let the constituents decide who to run. Nothing ticks off your own party more than to have the DCCC parachute in a loser candidate that is right on the issues for that organization, not so much for the district. They overstep their role in campaigns and have not shown themselves to be successful at them by running self funding millionaires or those heavily connected to millionaires. How many capable creative and energized potential candidates are they shoving aside (as has been reported and seen first hand in my own backyard) opting instead for the well heeled and connected?

As Thomas Frank has asked and answered, whatever happened to the party of the people?


Edited by chunkstyle (07/02/18 02:12 PM)

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#307219 - 07/02/18 04:23 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 314
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Agreed chunkstyle, let the constituents select who will run.

Here in Michigan we have a some what interesting primary race, may get real interesting soon. For the Republicans the Lieutenant Governor running and he is claiming that he had a significant impact in the Larry Nassar crime and scandal. He has two of the victims saying that if he could impact the investigation and settlement imagine what he could do as Governor. Real gem there, politicizing a serial sex abuse crime.

On the Democratic side we have:
Abdul El-Sayed, Citizen by birth, an Egyptian American, Medical Doctor and Rhodes Scholar
Shri Thanedar, Citizen naturalized, a Hindu (Indian), PHd in Chemistry an author and a successful entrepreneur
Gretchen Whitmer, Citizen by birth, ex-minority Leader of the Michigan Senate, Lawyer and ex-prosecutor


Any one of the above could give Republicans, Conservatives, and Evangelicals apaplexy.

All three Democrats are Progressive, very progressive.

As for Thomas Frank's question. It is doing fine here in Michigan
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#307220 - 07/02/18 05:07 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
"There is a reason, for instance, that in red states even the poor voted for the jackass."

Just a comment on the idea of poor working class whites and the constant yammering of journalist taking trump supporter safari's in rust belt states to 'have a conversation' or a 'listening tour'. I think it's rubbish and a peek at the income levels of the POTUS base have supported this view.

I posted a link to a shortened version of an energetic and decidedly left podcast for Gregor (a brother from another mother) about this idea of white working class trump voters. If you have time have a listen (to any of their podcasts for that matter. Good to stay in touch with this yutes and what there on about):




The full version of Trump support in the sunshine state


Edited by chunkstyle (07/02/18 05:07 PM)

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#307221 - 07/02/18 05:08 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
I'll have to read up on what's happening in Michigan Unjest. Good to hear you got some fresh blood in the race. Maybe some new ideas to boot?

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#307224 - 07/02/18 06:49 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
chunkstyle;
instead of "poor" how about "evangelical poor"? <G> The simple fact, however, is that not many of the poor even vote. Its been one of my constant whines, over the years. I hired a lot of the poor and they simply do not vote. Every time there was an election I would gather them together (for years) and preach the gospel which goes something like; "if you don't vote you WILL be f*cked. this being the case PLEASE vote - its in your own best interest." I never told them howto just todo. (there are, however, exceptions).

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#307226 - 07/02/18 08:05 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Yeah, that would be a very big difference jgw.
As far as working poor coming out to vote, can you blame em? A viscous circle of being ignored by politicians and ignoring politics. It doesn't help when there are so many that turn out to be pretenders or predators in sheeps clothing after all. Confirming the skepticism of working class folks.
Remember Obama? The rock star of hope and change? Remember him bailing out the banks and making them whole while turning his back on working people is an example of a pretender creating disaffection and cynicism. I'll take hits for that comment but had he gone FDR on the bankers (as they thought he was going to do when they were summoned to the white house) it would have gone a long way to taking the fire out of the anger that was steadily growing in the country in the wake of the housing crises. He could have look to history and gone left, instead he went with the corporate board he surrounded himself with. In case you haven't heard here's what one member of his board who pushed for coddling the banks have been up to...

Obama's picked treasury secretary living the life

We gotta hold these jokers accountable. One way is to elect better candidates. Getting better candidates will mean organizing and getting involved.

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#307230 - 07/02/18 10:03 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I can blame them. They are ignored by politicians BECAUSE THEY DON'T VOTE! The poor, for the most part, keep their heads down, get screwed over regularly, and work very hard for very little. Most are not particularly well educated nor are they interested in such things as 'politics'. I have given a lot of thought to this one as I know a lot of poor people and I have tried to understand them over the years. I have flat out failed. I have watched them make one bad decision after another. When I was younger I used to ask them why. I not only didn't get an answer it seemed that it was a secret and the question just pissed them off. Over the years I had some minor success at helping a couple, getting them to keep their kids in school, get the teachers to backoff when they tried to drug the kids that acted out, etc. Some of their kids made it (military, college, etc) and I knew/know them too. Some are not poor anymore. I have asked them about their parents and why. They all have the same response, they are my folks and love them but they just don't understand. I gave up trying to understand.

You refer to working people. That does not exactly describe the poor. The poor work and they work their asses off but its all marginal, jobs, health, kids, the whole thing. I also think there are fewer and fewer of them as automation is taking their jobs and gov is screwing them over, and I am no longer even convinced they care or will care. Its VERY strange.

Now, Obama. He was a strange one but HE WAS NEVER REALLY POOR. I think one of the worst thing he did is establish a policy that if you had the bucks you could pay a huge fine and never see the inside of jail. As far as I can its all part and parcel of a strange belief that money was the solution. I think the worst of that was the bank that laundered money for the drug dealers, for 15 years, and we are talking about billions. They actually confessed everything. The result was a huge fine and they all skipped. They also let banks who had setup large counterfeit operation to 'prove' they owned what they were foreclosing (they also got to pay large fines and skip the jail part) I think he either really admired the moneyed or he thought if he could make them his pals they would get the Republicans to let him legislate. In either case it didn't work and he is saddled with exactly what you said - guilty or not. I also think he tried but he had a short window and a lot of resistance from his own party as well as the Republicans. I also know that there are actually books written on the banking thing.

The simple fact is that Obama did all he could when he owned the congress. He got the health thing through, a seriously flawed, and written bill, 25% of which was left blank for the bureaucracy to fill in. I watch the markup on that one. I think 50% was actually written by the Republicans. He got almost a trillion to fix things and he spent most of it bailing out the states instead of focusing on infrastructure. He also got a bill actually passed (legislated) to fix the banking system. That's really about it and he had to fight his own as much as the other side to get that much done. I also remember, during the financial fixes that there were actually Dem legislators running stock operations once they learned that their pronouncements cause movement.

The jackass administration has gone after all these things with a vengeance. They are not as easy to destroy as stuff passed with the pen. That being said, they continue to take down a piece here, and there, then refuse to pay for to round it out. The taking off of much to save the "small banks", a damned lie, will just bring about the financial downturn a little faster but its coming!

I have no idea who or what is going to happen or how to get the mess straightened out. I used to believe that we would get the guy on the white horse but, instead, we got the jackass. I think our system is just too corrupt to survive (I read the reports on the Iran thing and that was just for starters). I am also not exactly young and my prayer is that I don't have to witness what happens as its not gonna be pretty. My hope (I am a wishful thinker on a professional level) is that one of these people coming up, and under 30 (or close) can rise up and lead. My thought is that is not going to happen as most of the young are also big believers in the "my way or the hiway" and they gotta learn to give a little.

the first thing, however, is to understand that there are only two sides (forget all the rest). People have to decide which side they are on and vote. I do believe there are more of us than them.

I wish us all good luck............. (if we are going to carry on like this it might be wise to move to a private conversation)

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#307234 - 07/03/18 05:12 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13202
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: jgw

I wish us all good luck............. (if we are going to carry on like this it might be wise to move to a private conversation)


Why?
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#307243 - 07/03/18 07:07 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
have no idea - sometimes, anyway - again - have no idea

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#307246 - 07/03/18 10:47 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16060
It takes years to establish a governmental organization. There are budgets to write, plans, programs, policies, hiring, training, etc. An institution can be destroyed in months. Fire all the competent people, undermine the policies, destroy morale, gut the budget. Trump's appointees have done that throughout the government. All of the important agencies have been undermined, and most of the others. I can't think of any that are unscathed. Some are in tatters. It may take decades to recover, if that is even possible. The longer the disastrous tax cuts remain in place, the longer the looting goes on, the longer any recovery will take.

The Great Depression lasted a decade. Expect the next to last as long, and we have fewer tools left to address it. We will have a hostile Supreme Court, which will stymie even State solutions. I'm as pessimistic as I have been in my life.

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#307247 - 07/04/18 12:18 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12006
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
The best part is that as government fails, the gop will claim validation of the idea that government is inherently flawed and should therefore be further defunded
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#307248 - 07/04/18 01:05 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
One very important thing to keep in mind is that when you have an economic crash, you can punish the people and institutions that can be blamed. But killing those institutions might bring down other institutions, and others, and others. Resulting in exactly the opposite of what you need to do to recover. But we can all be satisfied that the guilty were punished, as we sit in our cold Hoover shacks and eat our canned beans.

Like AGI, the big reinsurance company: You bring them down and you could possibly crash EVERY INSURANCE COMPANY, and pension fund! They let Lehman Brothers fail and said: "Wait a minute, maybe this is not the way to recover." In England, Lloyds went belly up and the government of the UK stepped in. In the US, Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac failed and the FHA stepped in to save what were essentially government agencies.

These were desperate times and the solution was not to crash every institution that was failing. We dodged a huge bullet.
Failed Institutions during the Great Recession

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#307256 - 07/04/18 06:16 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: Ardy]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8808
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Ardy
The best part is that as government fails, the gop will claim validation of the idea that government is inherently flawed and should therefore be further defunded

Ardy's baaaack!!
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#307260 - 07/05/18 04:14 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Matt Taibbi's comparison of the Pelosi plan

Stay Calm and Carry On

about nails it...

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#307431 - 07/14/18 03:23 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886

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#307454 - 07/15/18 08:14 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13202
Loc: Whittier, California
And he is spot on, too.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#307459 - 07/15/18 10:17 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Oy vie! Jesus Christ, yes. Who are they going to feed us next.

You know what I liked about Hillary? She was no surprise. We knew for 8 years that she was going to run and would likely win. That she would probably be 8 more years of Obamaesque governance. I was okay with that, not real excited but okay... It was certainly better than any of the yayhoos the Republicans would regurgitate into the election.

But then there was the dark horse candidate...Bernie! How could you not love Bernie? All our leftishmost dreams wrapped up in a single candidate not afraid to voice all our hopes and wishes and dreams out loud. And he drew HUGE crowds.

And another dark horse candidate on the other side...Donald!

Who began his campaign by proclaiming Mexicans to be rapists and murderers. To a racist conservative electorate who had just suffered for eight years under the rule of a LIBERAL BLACK MAN.
And he drew Huge crowds.

Welp, we all know who won that one.

Donald Trump is strutting around like some sort of Banana Republic Warlord and the Democratic Plan is to serve up some sort of milquetoast tabula rasa sort of candidate that doesn't please anyone a single iota to the right or left of center.

Maybe Hillary will run again?
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307510 - 07/17/18 09:05 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
There is a tv series called, I think, Our Cartoon President, and I think Stephen Colbert is responsible for it. Anyway, I watched it last night. They kinda split the subject to lambast between Trump and the Democratic 'Plan'. It used to be all about Trump but, now, its changed and it was, er, well, interesting?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/comi...m=.d38ae5f00a76

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#307513 - 07/17/18 09:56 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
There's a new book out from political writer Thomas Frank called 'Rendezvous with Oblivion'. A collection of essays from the last few years that turned out to have significance to today's reality.
I think it's important to go back from time to time and see who called it early and why. Frank has been consistently calling it for awhile now and his latest book read was spot on.
I think his observation about boomer centrists is a correct one. They are never going back on third way thinking. It defined them and was a repudiation of their parents and the New Deal era associated with them. In some respects this Hillary/ Trump feud is an ongoing fight within Boomer ideology with the result that Third Way types can't truck populism leaving the door wide open to right wing populism and all it's possible outcomes.

Thomas Frank's shorter oblivion chat

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#307515 - 07/17/18 10:32 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Originally Posted By: jgw
There is a tv series called, I think, Our Cartoon President, and I think Stephen Colbert is responsible for it. Anyway, I watched it last night. They kinda split the subject to lambast between Trump and the Democratic 'Plan'. It used to be all about Trump but, now, its changed and it was, er, well, interesting?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/comi...m=.d38ae5f00a76


Hilarious!

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#307516 - 07/17/18 10:41 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I think his observation about boomer centrists is a correct one. They are never going back on third way thinking. It defined them and was a repudiation of their parents and the New Deal era associated with them. In some respects this Hillary/ Trump feud is an ongoing fight within Boomer ideology with the result that Third Way types can't truck populism leaving the door wide open to right wing populism and all it's possible outcomes.


It's just the way we were raised. It's always baffled me that my generation turned into such assh0les.

You're an Xer aren't you, Chunks?
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307518 - 07/17/18 11:00 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Yeah and their's nothing great about it either. It gave rise to preppy white guys sporting baseball caps (remember that getting started) with tucked in shirts. We've gone independent and tried sorta to embrace multiculturalism with mixed success from what I can tell. Were also holding the title of fastest growing suicide demographic. (Go GenX!) Bearing witness to this long slow rightward drift and plant closings across the country. The rise of the yuppies and 'greed is good' embrace.

From what I can tell, the trend line seems to be going in the other direction with regard to free markets and our relationships with it defining who we are and our society with the subsequent generations. There also seems to be renewed interest in other forms of political thought like anarchism, socialism, anarcho-syndicalism, unionism, etc after it's near elimination from conscious thought via the 70 year jihad by the right wing (and capitulation of the democratic center).

Who knows, maybe something good will come out of this if we don't all see the mushroom. It's time for new blood in the democratic party and I do see signs of hopeful shoots.


C'mon boomers, let some one else have a try...


Edited by chunkstyle (07/18/18 12:23 AM)

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#307530 - 07/18/18 07:29 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Eh... spoke to soon.
Who remembers this blightt of right wing democratic centrism for the democratic party? Seems like were gunna have a bumpy ride in the Bronx after all. Another example of moving right while... aw screw it, most know the drill already.

Centrists....PUSH!!!



Edited by chunkstyle (07/18/18 07:36 PM)

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#307531 - 07/18/18 08:05 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
For the last couple of days there has been a lot of stuff going on. The media has it all covered, especially the antics of the Jackass. They discuss, they have panels, and its ALL about the Jackass and his foibles. I currently have a house guest. Its a friend with 4 grown daughters, all of which are Trumpites. She tells me that they deny any kind of logic, are in full grip of Fox news and only occasionally watch other news, ie. ignorant as fence posts. At the same time, however, when asked how they feel about the jackass taking away their healthcare the response remains; "He is not doing that". At the same time, with all that is going on one would think that the elite leftist media would occasionally mention the simple fact that this administration is destroying both medicare and medicaid to the tune of 1 billion from medicare, every year, and 1.5 billion from Medicaid. In 8 years Medicare, for all practical purposes will be gone. Nope, nary a second to waste on that stuff. That being the case whilst I see Ads from the right, every night, I have yet to see a single one, from the left pointing any of this kind of stuff out. The true believers of the right, however, are completely isolated from any kind of truth and the Dems, in their civilized way, is doing absolutely nothing to even vaguely point out the error of their ways. So, basically, we have the right advertising their lies every night whilst the left, not wanting to upset anybody, keeps absolutely silent and continues to beg for yet more money (for what I have no idea) and little else.

There must be somebody, in the DNC, that recognizes this is a problem and has solutions? If they exist they are VERY quiet?


Edited by jgw (07/18/18 08:08 PM)

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#307534 - 07/18/18 08:33 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
jgw....you go on about this silence from the left all the time. I don't get it. The things you say they are silent about I see them shouting from the rooftops. I follow Bernie on Facebook, every single day he rants and raves about this stuff and how we MUST do better. And every day I say...how, Bernie, how? They hold all the cards. Every branch of government, most state governments and most local governments too.
CNN cuts him no slack he won't even answer questions from them. Left leaning newspapers are all over this stuff, do you read the (failing)NYTimes or WAPO? Do you go to Huffpo? Alternet? TPM?
If you're counting on Television, remember most TV stations and networks are owned by Republicans. You aint gonna get a lot of lefty news there.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307549 - 07/19/18 02:43 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
I believe Sanders has been saying "get involved, organize!" for some time now Gregor. I have posted his message in this thread if memory serves. That takes commitment.

As far as not hearing about the allure of what Democrats have to offer or a plan for the future I think it could be looked at thru the campaign lens of 'America is already Great'.
Basically they have no message except to maintain status quo and the coveted rolodex of donors.

A very good takedown of the Democratic party:

'When the old way has been proven not to work you have to try something new. Everyone understands this intuitively, except for people whose prestige and salary and identity and power depend upon the old way. Those people will never understand it no matter how hard you try. So they have to go. It is not about old people or young people—it is about new ideas. We need people running the Democratic Party who will try new ideas because the old ideas have gotten us to where we are today, which is unacceptable. This is not a radical concept. It is common sense.'

Full Article

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#307550 - 07/19/18 04:26 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13202
Loc: Whittier, California
Excellent, and the next article is a call to service.

The Democratic Party Is Yours. Take It.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#307551 - 07/19/18 05:04 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
All good advice Jeff. Phone banking, canvassing etc... Get organized and involved.

We turned out 50% more primary voters four our candidate (who didn't get the primary win) than the total amount of registered voters who turned out for the last primary. Turnout had tripled overall from last primary numbers. There was 3x more voters for our candidate than the next most popular candidate (though that candidate went on to win the district).
How did we get the numbers? Door to effing door talking about the issues that our candidate supports and would have meaningful positive impact in peoples lives. It was an uphill battle as we were going up against a third way centrist with the money and the machine but we had the consolation of beating her handily in our township.


What's amazing is how much broad agreement their is an a host of issues between Trump/Hillary and Sanders supporters. What's galling is how two out of the three political camps reject those ideas that have broad popular support.

I will not vote for the centrist. THere's no difference between her and the current sitting representative. They both represent the corporate party. I will move on to help other progressives in he state, though.



Edited by chunkstyle (07/19/18 05:05 PM)

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#307552 - 07/19/18 06:24 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Gregor;
amongst others we watch MSNBC. This is a known lefty hangout. I assume you watch it too. When was the last time you heard mention of the destruction of Medicaid and Medicare? All I am saying is that the true believers are flat out isolated from the rest of the world. I am suggesting that, perhaps, the DNC might put up some 'educational' ads that state simple truth to those that are clueless. I mentioned the MSNBC thing because I have also found that even some of those on the left are also ignorant of everything but what is happening RIGHT NOW. They do not actually understand what wonders have been wrought by the right. They know about the tax givaway but don't know, for instance, that they changed the regulations on drinking water. I just think that folks need to know just what the right has 'accomplished' instead of the constant blatting about the foibles of the jackass. The right, as far as I am concerned, has had a free ride in the fulfillment of their wet dreams. Here is another one. The guy who took over the FHA. We all know about his 80 thousand plus table for his office but how about his decision to increase of federal housing rents by 3 times to "encourage the bums to work". (I don't think he pulled it off but I suspect its still on the back burner) Said bums are the elderly, the disabled, the very poor, etc. Vice news had a report on the department of energy colluding with big money to milk funds. This kind of stuff gets reported and forgotten, it shouldn't be.

We should also not forget that the UN guy who checks the poor in nations found that something like 1 out of 6, in the United States, are destitute. The department of agriculture claims that a full 25% of rural children are destitute.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/america-poverty-worse-under-trump_us_5b131f08e4b010565aac77bc

This was reported, I think, this week and that will be the end of it as far as tv is concerned. I know, there is much going on and its all media can do to just keep up with the current stuff. My point is that much of the current stuff is just jackass fluff and lies and entertainment, certainly not news. I also realize that we don't have a really great attention span which also means, to me, that this kind of stuff needs to be better distributed, somehow. Candidates, I also, believe, probably need to be upbeat and talk about what they would do but, at the same time, somebody has to remind just what has been going on and there is not very much of that going on right now.

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#307557 - 07/20/18 01:32 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I assume you watch it too.

I haven't had a television in over 20 years. I hate 'em and won't be in the same room as one.

Strictly an internet guy. So I can check sources and facts as I read.

Yes, we heard about the table. And about him tripling the rent. And about the pyramids used to store grain. We also heard that he met with Trump and agreed to endorse him for a job in the Trump administration. Illegal, if I recall, but there was never a whimper when he took the job.

It's all reported daily as it happens. That's how news works. The DNC can't be buying ads just to repeat last weeks news because someone might have missed it. If anyone is uninformed about the goings on in Washington it's because they don't want to be informed. Can't really blame folks for tuning it out.

We'll get through the Trump years just like we got through the Bush years. Then we'll straighten things out again. I just hope I live to see it. I've only got maybe one more President left in me. Two if I'm lucky but I aint counting on it.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307560 - 07/20/18 02:22 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: Greger]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Oh, and just in case you think no one is talking about it, this just in from Bernie...
Quote:

At a time when the United States spends more on the military than it did even at the height of the Korean or Vietnam wars, and more than the next 10 nations spend on their militaries combined, President Trump and his administration are doing everything they can to slash funding for programs like Medicaid, Social Security and nutrition assistance that are life-and-death for millions of low-income people in this country. Trump's agenda does not reflect our priorities as a nation. It is the opposite of who we are as a country. This is a war on the poor and it must be stopped.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307567 - 07/20/18 07:57 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
The simple fact is that the poor is one of those populations that simply do not vote! I don't believe there is any kind of war against the poor, they are simply ignored and so it seems like war. It works this way (I guess it needs repeating). Our elected class answers to two sets; their donor class, and the voters (in that order)). The Voters are defined as those who not only have the right to vote but actually vote. The politician has all he can do to take care of the donors and them that voted for/against him/her. Since the American public tends to not think very far ahead (I think the last figure, for how much folks retiring have piled up in anticipation for retiring, was something like 10,000.00!) and pretty much live in the moment they take Social Security as one of them things that will be with us forever and don't think about that one either. Nutrition assistance (food stamps?) well, them that vote for the right already know that those recipients are a bunch of n'er do well's and food stamps don't count. So, when Bernie is expressing his kindly Socialist side, politicians, and voters for the right, are simply not interested. What we have here is, basically, Bernie speaking to his followers and nobody else.

My point was/is - we need to somehow at least reach out to the other side supporters who have actually isolated themselves from any truth to the point that they can't tell a lie from the truth, refuse to believe anything they don't want to believe, and, pretty much, reject reality. I believe this to be the case with a 40+% of the American voting public. The only thing I can think of is to advertise the truth, small bites of reality in video with short sentences. We are told that the Jackass speaks with the vocabulary of a 4th grader. So that is the vocabulary that should be used in said videos as well. You know just little facts. An example (I am sure others could do this better) might be: "In your 50"s and counting on Medicare? Forget it, its gonna be gone in 8 years" or "need medicare to survive? Not if you need more than 8 years" This is based on the simple fact that the Medicare trust will be broke in 8 years and they are taking 10 billion out, each year, for the next 10 years, to pay for the tax breaks for billionaires.

I think if that appeared a couple of times a night it might, at least, make somebody who gives a damn, check the figures? Also, when running the ads make sure they are on when them 50+ folks are watching. Could do the same for Medicaid (poor that don't vote).

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#307568 - 07/20/18 08:02 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Just a thought about "Democratic Socialist". I think that "Democratic Socialist" is, quite possibly the best example of the Dems simply not paying attention. The term "Socialist" is as toxic, and hated, and demonized as "Hillary". To claim anything with "socialist" as part of attracting voters, is silly verging on insensitive and nuts. There should be somebody, in the DNC that understands this and can come up with a phrase not designed to turn off half the electorate. The only term that might be worse would be "Communist".

"Democratic Socialist" is, basically, a term for existing supporters of the cause and NOBODY else!

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#307571 - 07/20/18 10:08 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13202
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: jgw
Just a thought about "Democratic Socialist". I think that "Democratic Socialist" is, quite possibly the best example of the Dems simply not paying attention. The term "Socialist" is as toxic, and hated, and demonized as "Hillary". To claim anything with "socialist" as part of attracting voters, is silly verging on insensitive and nuts. There should be somebody, in the DNC that understands this and can come up with a phrase not designed to turn off half the electorate. The only term that might be worse would be "Communist".

"Democratic Socialist" is, basically, a term for existing supporters of the cause and NOBODY else!


I've been saying the same thing all along.
And Bernie hasn't been a real socialist since he first set foot on Capitol Hill anyway, he's been a New Deal liberal Democrat, so from where I sit, he's just been engaging in foolish sentimentalism.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#307572 - 07/20/18 10:49 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The term "Socialist" is as toxic, and hated, and demonized as "Hillary"

Hillary may be toxic, hated, and demonized but she got 3 million more votes than Trump.
If politics was a fair game Bernie would have beaten her in the primaries and likely Trump in the general.

Almost every major country has embraced Social Democracy in one way or another.

And Jeffery, the "New Deal Democrats" were Democratic Socialists

Like almost everything else Republicans are on the wrong side of history on this.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307573 - 07/20/18 10:59 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Bernie hasn't been a real socialist since he first set foot on Capitol Hill

Oh he's a real socialist alright. But he's smart and he keeps his rhetoric toned down so it still appeals to the center left.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307576 - Yesterday at 02:04 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Quote:
My point was/is - we need to somehow at least reach out to the other side supporters who have actually isolated themselves from any truth to the point that they can't tell a lie from the truth, refuse to believe anything they don't want to believe, and, pretty much, reject reality.


No, we don't. We need to beat them soundly at the polls. Then we need to shut them out of government. Then we need to do everything that Bernie Sanders says we need to do.

It's like reaching out to a rabid dog. It's dangerous. It needs to be put down before it can spread the disease further.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307578 - Yesterday at 03:20 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: jgw
Just a thought about "Democratic Socialist". I think that "Democratic Socialist" is, quite possibly the best example of the Dems simply not paying attention. The term "Socialist" is as toxic, and hated, and demonized as "Hillary". To claim anything with "socialist" as part of attracting voters, is silly verging on insensitive and nuts. There should be somebody, in the DNC that understands this and can come up with a phrase not designed to turn off half the electorate. The only term that might be worse would be "Communist".

"Democratic Socialist" is, basically, a term for existing supporters of the cause and NOBODY else!


I've been saying the same thing all along.
And Bernie hasn't been a real socialist since he first set foot on Capitol Hill anyway, he's been a New Deal liberal Democrat, so from where I sit, he's just been engaging in foolish sentimentalism.


Does it matter Jeff?
Is Sanders right or wrong on the issues he has been raising? Single payer? Economic justice? Historic inequality?
What difference does it make what banana sticker is on it?
The yutes don't care. They're not as indoctrinated as older generations.
Should we be?

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#307579 - Yesterday at 03:54 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13202
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: jgw
Just a thought about "Democratic Socialist". I think that "Democratic Socialist" is, quite possibly the best example of the Dems simply not paying attention. The term "Socialist" is as toxic, and hated, and demonized as "Hillary". To claim anything with "socialist" as part of attracting voters, is silly verging on insensitive and nuts. There should be somebody, in the DNC that understands this and can come up with a phrase not designed to turn off half the electorate. The only term that might be worse would be "Communist".

"Democratic Socialist" is, basically, a term for existing supporters of the cause and NOBODY else!


I've been saying the same thing all along.
And Bernie hasn't been a real socialist since he first set foot on Capitol Hill anyway, he's been a New Deal liberal Democrat, so from where I sit, he's just been engaging in foolish sentimentalism.


Does it matter Jeff?
Is Sanders right or wrong on the issues he has been raising? Single payer? Economic justice? Historic inequality?
What difference does it make what banana sticker is on it?
The yutes don't care. They're not as indoctrinated as older generations.
Should we be?


Like it or not we need to be if we intend to grab enough votes outside of "da yutes".
You know me well enough to know that I agree with Sanders on the issues.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#307580 - Yesterday at 03:55 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13202
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
The term "Socialist" is as toxic, and hated, and demonized as "Hillary"

Hillary may be toxic, hated, and demonized but she got 3 million more votes than Trump.
If politics was a fair game Bernie would have beaten her in the primaries and likely Trump in the general.

Almost every major country has embraced Social Democracy in one way or another.

And Jeffery, the "New Deal Democrats" were Democratic Socialists

Like almost everything else Republicans are on the wrong side of history on this.


Yes, they were, I GRANT YOU EVERYTHING but in the case of POTUS elections, tags are tags, ammo is ammo and marketing is everything.

Don't drive with the parking brake on.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#307581 - Yesterday at 05:00 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7692
Loc: North San Diego County
I think "da yutes" don't vote enough to make much of a difference. It's the middle-aged and seniors you need to appeal to. Besides Social Security and Medicare, the big issue will be the Republicans cozying up to the Russians. Anybody middle-aged or older remembers the USSR, communism, dictators, "We will bury you!", etc.

Kind of strange for Democrats to be yelling: "Commie" but REALLY strange for Republicans to be going there. There's got to be a lot of stolid Mid-Western Republicans who still love apple pie and freedom and hate the damned Rooskies. Free gift for Democrats: Use it!

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#307584 - Yesterday at 04:50 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Advertising is about creating demand. Clearly there was something wrong with Clinton's centrist message Jeff. People have grown tired of it. I think the voters have a sense that it's schilling for corporations and doesn't have their interests. If you have any doubts of what a 'Third Way' Democrat is about just do some light research on what the 'Third Way' think tank is all about and, more importantly, where it gets it's financial backing. Put simply, it's a corporate funded think tank much like the rest of em. Neoliberal to it's core. Are you happy to be referred to as a 'consumer' by your congressional representative? I'm not.
Sanders seems to be maintaining his popularity in spite of everyone knowing he's a democratic socialist. The fact that the corporate leadership of the democratic party undermined his primary campaign, his platform polled higher than Clinton's with republican voters. Very much higher among the Yutes. Again, Clinton, not so much.
You want Yutes to show up? Give em something to show up for. You want to increase voter turnout? Make it easier to vote. Funny how liberals want to huff and puff about what's going on in red state's on these issues but there's crickets when it comes to these same issues happenning in blue states...



Edited by chunkstyle (Yesterday at 04:51 PM)

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#307590 - Yesterday at 06:10 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2033
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Perhaps this is the real problem. The Right understands, completely, the importance of language and demonization. The Left, apparently, doesn't thing that language is important and demonization is a myth. This is being played out, right now, and right here.

Not much more about this to talk about............

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#307592 - Yesterday at 06:47 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16060
I agree with your proposal, jgw. Values, values, values. I think there are even conservatives who can be persuaded on that point. I think, chunk, and others, exaggerate the "disaster" of Clinton and the "strength" of the Republican plan. 70,000 votes. That's it.

But, to "take back" the country, the race has to be run and won all the way down to dog-catcher. That requires a commitment to the party at every level.

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#307593 - Yesterday at 07:07 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16060

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#307595 - Yesterday at 07:44 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14039
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The Left, apparently, doesn't thing that language is important

The right doesn't think that the truth is important. They're a lot more into propaganda and brainwashing than the left. They use fear of other races, fear of immigrants, fear of liberal politicians taking money from the rich. They use anger and false patriotism, they use religion as a weapon.

It's hard for reality to compete with the fantasy world the right has created. And you're saying that the way to beat them is to become more like them.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307596 - Today at 12:26 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 886
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I agree with your proposal, jgw. Values, values, values. I think there are even conservatives who can be persuaded on that point. I think, chunk, and others, exaggerate the "disaster" of Clinton and the "strength" of the Republican plan. 70,000 votes. That's it.

But, to "take back" the country, the race has to be run and won all the way down to dog-catcher. That requires a commitment to the party at every level.


Rilly?
Is an historic wipeout of local, state and federal representation and the loss of legal redress for at least a generation and probably two or the looming overturning of Roe vs. Wade an exaggeration, NWP?

We got biblical wealth inequality and debt peonage. Mass incarceration and mass low wages. You'd think there would be plenty for the Democratic Party to say. You wonder at the willful obtuseness of trying to expand the parties base (as Corbyn did) but then you look at the who's running the party.

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