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#306615 - 05/06/18 12:51 PM Re: Richard Painter Switches from GOP to DFL in Senate Run [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Democratic right wing centrism?


Yep. Because that's all your gonna get. You can dream of a socialist utopia but it aint gonna happen in my lifetime or yours.

I will remind you once again that politics is the art of the possible.



The Soviets claimed to be socialists, the Nazis claimed to be socialists, Sanders claims to be a socialist, Venezuela claims to be socialist, France has a socialist party and a socialist government, but none of the people or places actually meet the definition of a socialist or socialism.

And I think that for Americans, it doesn't really matter beyond us just gleaning a couple of minor tweaks to use in the capitalist system to tilt it more in favor of the middle class. Outside of that, you'd be looking at converting our entire economy into something we've never tried in almost 250 years, and I don't think it would go well.

Countries which are capitalist but which have added a small smidgeon of quasi-socialist spice to their capitalism seem to do pretty well.
We did it and it worked beautifully, and I think we ought to try it again, and soon.
But going whole hog socialist? Naaah, I think it's a bad experiment for the United States.
And, I doubt it would ever gain traction anyway, for a wide variety of reasons.

But again, the biggest reason seems to be that we did very well just tweaking our capitalist system with just a dash of small s socialism and stopping at just that. It was a hybrid and it was very healthy.

And as for the Right wing, now that Americans have witnessed them in all their vulgar philistine glory, there will be a reckoning, and it will be very bad for the Right.
And whether or not we go socialist has little if anything to do with the fact that Americans will not tolerate this level of nastiness.
The repudiation of the Right will be swift, just and irrevocable.


This country had one of the most bloody and violent labor histories. To call it a 'dab of socialism' is telling Jeff.
The great class traitor FDR had viscous battles with the rich and powerful many of which liked the nazi's and their corporate fascism. That dream is still very much alive and nearly complete today in this country. One could say that the rulers of the National socialist party were conquered and the irony is the conquerers became more like the conquered.
The left is trying to oppose this slide but it has an uphill battle from both the dominant right wing that has taken over its party and the ultra right opposition party that is trying to reform itself into a german like national socialist party.
Going further right is not an alternative strategy that has worked given the current reality.
Using John Podesta's 'they're so offensive that they'll vote for us by default' is not a coherent strategy. Backing popular proposals and winning majorities to pass such proposals still seems like a better way to win IMO.

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#306617 - 05/06/18 01:54 PM Re: Richard Painter Switches from GOP to DFL in Senate Run [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16204
I'm not laughing at you, chunk, but I am laughing. I love your zeal and true-heartedness - I really do. But you are missing such a fundamental point it baffles me. I'll ask it this way: Which leaders - American and World - have had the greatest positive impact in realizing progressive policies? Name them. Seriously. I promise to listen carefully.

I'll give you a hint: They are the very centrists you are excoriating. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, Lyndon Johnson, Barack Obama... Martin Luther King? Not a "socialist" among them, and yet each has contributed profoundly to advancing social justice and the best of who we are. Do I need to list their accomplishments?Internationally, it is the same story. Gandhi? Bismarck? Mandela? None were preaching Utopia, just a better world.

I very much respect your views, my friend, and I'm rowing in the same direction, truly - but I'll take the inside oar every time. It's less likely to capsize the boat.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#306620 - 05/06/18 05:01 PM Re: Richard Painter Switches from GOP to DFL in Senate Run [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Sheesh,

Arguing a point about the ruination of the middle class over the last 3 decades as a result of the pursuit of neo-liberal policies is akin to advocating state issued jumpsuits that will be legally required for all of us to start wearing for some on this board.
One of the famous leaders in your list NWP had a famous quote that went something like "I can't pass your bill untill you make me pass your bill". Something to that effect.
The point is, as another famous leader said,"power concedes nothing without a demand".
I reject the technocratic class that has dominated the democratic party. I have made clear that it has done little more than managed lowered expectations while punching left. I stand by that view based on the steady growth of income inequality and legal justice over the same last 30 years. Any small gains that have been made are under serious threat. Your odd red scare counterpoint argument to my criticism of the democrats rightward turn offers no solution to the current political situation.
Nor does blaming Comey.
Nor does RUSSIA!.
Nor does Bernie voters!
Nor does Stormy.
Nor does 'Just wait, they'll see the error of their votes..."
Nor does Muellers investigation.

What may help is a clear vision of government and policy that people can get behind. 78 centrist democrats just recently voted with republicans to gut Dodd Frank.
Who's interest is being served? Who's winning the battle over resources? Who's been losing that battle and why?
The Pullman car company strikes, the mine field war in West Virginia, Colorado mine wars, Pretty much all the major labor battles of the late 19th and early to mid-20th centuries were fought by leaders and rank and file. They demanded something from power. Most of that has been stripped away now and were fighting over membership.
Any republicans without a home that are brought into the democratic party at the cost to progressives (who else) are not welcome. Regardless of the red hysteria that position might generate.
Say, when the last time the minimum wage was raised?
That would be one example of a more equitable time. Call me commie.......


Edited by chunkstyle (05/06/18 05:03 PM)

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#306621 - 05/06/18 05:36 PM Re: Richard Painter Switches from GOP to DFL in Senate Run [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8872
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Not a "socialist" among them...

It has been verified for me recently that the word "socialism" is still so highly tainted among Regressives that they will make up fresh and heinous meanings for it, meanings that are not even remotely connected to its definition. They particularly like to ascribe fascist and authoritarian evils to socialism - it means "the government is going to tell you what to do and how to think, AND they are coming for your guns, BTW.

Regressives are also similarly tainting the word "progressive", as well as many other words that are being doublespeaked (doublespoken?) into irrational oblivion. That's why I began calling such right wingers 'Regressives', because they hate 'Progressives' so much that they can't figure out a way to deny being the Opposite Thang (ConROT).

To the point, there exists 30-40% of our population that reveres doublespeaking, propagandizing, assholistic authoritarians, and we have allowed them to take control of the government. Facts don't matter, just a strong sales pitch about who the enemy is.

The Left needs a strong sales pitch about the positive things we can do, and needs to counter the Upside Down messaging of the Regressives. A counter-doublespeak campaign.

Basic logic isn't going to do the trick. Salesmanship works. That's all a leader is, a good salesman - that's how to get elected. We need a leader who is also a decent manager, though.
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#306622 - 05/06/18 06:26 PM Re: Richard Painter Switches from GOP to DFL in Senate Run [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14201
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Salesmanship works. That's all a leader is, a good salesman - that's how to get elected. We need a leader who is also a decent manager, though.


I'd argue that "leaders" are excellent managers. While salesmen are not necessarily all liars they all play games with the truth.

Trump is a super-salesman, he speaks in superlatives and diminutives. It got him elected. But he's a lousy manager.

Bernie is a great salesman, he's selling a great product and he believes in his product. Not sure about his management skills.

Hillary sucks at sales, good product but poorly presented, she's terrible at campaigning. But she's a good manager, a good manager can hire good salesmen...
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#306623 - 05/06/18 06:27 PM Re: Richard Painter Switches from GOP to DFL in Senate Run [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41017
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


The elephant in the room: Hillary is the reason why we have Trump today. Hmm

I blame Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and those who believe it was "her turn."

frown
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#306624 - 05/06/18 07:05 PM Re: Richard Painter Switches from GOP to DFL in Senate Run [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
But.. But.. the ladders

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#306625 - 05/06/18 07:06 PM Re: Richard Painter Switches from GOP to DFL in Senate Run [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
I can't do 15.00/hr how bout 12?

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#306627 - 05/06/18 07:58 PM Re: Richard Painter Switches from GOP to DFL in Senate Run [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14201
Loc: Florida
I know a lot of folks who would be thrilled with $12.

Quote:
I blame...


I don't blame anybody. It was an election and they don't always turn out the way you want. Hillary would have been better than Trump. Maybe Bernie would have been better than Hillary. Everything else is just spilled milk under the bridge.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#306633 - 05/07/18 12:14 AM Re: Richard Painter Switches from GOP to DFL in Senate Run [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41017
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Greger
... Hillary would have been better than Trump...

I agree. smile

...but I'd rather have Biden or Bernie. Hmm And, no it's not a woman thing, but it is 100% a THAT woman thing. laugh
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