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#306896 - 06/03/18 09:35 PM The failure of the public school system
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1960
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I was watching Fareed interview Bannon today. Its was interesting. They were talking about bringing in foreigners to take away American jobs. The Bannon pitch was saying that stopping the bringing in of foreigners to do jobs, needing to be done, was stealing jobs from Americans. This is, I fear, a majority opinion of that and its flat out wrong.

The simple fact, however, is that industry is importing workers to do jobs that Americans cannot do because they are not trained (the foreigners are). The American public school system is a system of free education, funded by taxpayers, so that the students are prepared and can find work or move on to higher education to, again, find jobs. The public pays, through the 12th grade, so that they, the public, has enough trained to fill the open jobs, get paycheck, support the economy, etc. Instead the public school system, in its wisdom, has chosen to teach just about everybody to get ready to goto college. The school system has also figured out that their best shot at getting their students into college is to give them a good liberal education. There has also been some movement into STEM (science, technology, engineering, and math) in high school but just not enough. Those that choose to not attend college, after graduating from high school, are left swinging in the wind, untrained, and unemployable.

Before I move on I should add that other industrialized countries take a slightly different tack. The upshot is that you get to goto college if you qualify and, if not, you are shunted to come kind of job training that doesn't require a college degree (but does involve a job). If you make it to college, through this system, then college is free. There is a lot more to that but I will leave it there. That system is, basically, designed not only for the good of the students but good for society at large.

Our system for reasons, beyond my understanding, doesn't really even take college into consideration, other than the decision that every student in American must goto college. Then they cleverly added, along with a huge increase in the costs of going to college a system of loans to pay for those costs. Then, gov, in its infinite wisdom, stepped in with a loan program for students that cannot pony up the 50 to 100 thousand, per year, necessary to goto college. Gov also, graciously, only charged said students 2 times the going interest rate for their good deal. So, so far, we have created a free school system that, for the most part, do not teach what students need to know to get a good job and a multi-trillion dollar debt load on students going to college. It gets even better in that those going to college are not really getting educated to get a job so much as just getting 'college educated'. This may get you a job in finances, teaching, history, literature or philosophy but unlikely to be able to pay off the debt that got you here. If you are REALLY smart you succeed and if you don't you have a massive debt which you will never be able to get rid of. The simple fact is that school debt and any bank debt cannot be dealt with through individual bankruptcy, unlike bankruptcy for corporations which march to a different drum.

The result of the current system is that there are, literally, hundreds of thousands of really good paying jobs that go unfilled by Americans simply because they were not trained for those jobs. This is simple fact. The proof is in the necessity to hire foreigners for these jobs. The usual take is that the foreigners are hired because they work cheap. This may be true but in not the majority of cases. The companies will normally pay the going wage to get the help. They will normally pay the going wage because, if they don't they don't get the worker because, in most situations, their training is what is important.

Now, your government knows this, I suspect the teachers know this, the colleges and universities absolutely know this yet our current system of education continues with no changes. If anybody actually tries they are demonized, cursed, maligned and shunted to the side of the road.

My question is simple. I wrote another topic wondering if we had all gone insane. I think the topic stands.

ARE WE ALL INSANE?

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#306907 - 06/04/18 08:49 PM Re: The failure of the public school system [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7620
Loc: North San Diego County
Obviously, we need a huge program for teaching people how to be health care assistants. Mostly, this is just getting elderly people out of bed and cleaning them up. Since most Americans don't want to do it, make the program open to guest workers and refugees. There are enough openings to employ every refugee fleeing Central American countries riddled with gangs and death squads, and still accommodate all the Americans who are interested. A lot of the women coming here have already done this for their elderly relatives, so they even have experience.

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#306909 - 06/05/18 12:30 AM Re: The failure of the public school system [Re: jgw]
Spag-hetti Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1662
Loc: Middle, USA
When my husband was stationed in Oberammergau, Germany, we went to eat one evening at a restaurant run by Benedictine monks, right across the street from the historic abbey in Ettal, in the alps, for crying out loud. So of course we were absolutely blown away when our waitress turned out to be a stunning black woman. And when she spoke, it was perfect British English. We came back the next night with my husband's best buddy, who was also black. Yes, we were playing Cupid. They dated so we found out that she was in some kind of high-class waitressing school. They learn the theory and then do internships in foreign countries, to prepare them to be high-paid servers in high-class restaurants. I have run into Italian kids doing the same thing in an Italian restaurant in Lake City, Colorado.

Yes! There are ways to educate and train people for good-paying jobs, and make it part of high-school vocational programs with links to post high-school programs and internships for resume building and networking.

When we were in Europe, we frequented cheap b&b's when we traveled. Then the dollar fell, so we got a 20-year-old VW bus and started camping. In that setting we shared many a campfire with European students. The German kids were receiving government aid for their studies. Some were in traditional colleges. What amazed me was the number of kids getting government help to study in any number of specialty schools ... mechanics, artists, musicians, cooks ... hotel training, massage training etc etc etc

Makes so much sense.

I'm sure Betsy DeVos will think of it. Probably pretty soon.
_________________________
Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#306912 - 06/05/18 08:49 AM Re: The failure of the public school system [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7620
Loc: North San Diego County
You know, the government should really give kids aging out of the foster care system first crack at technical and trade schools. They turn 18 maybe with a high school diploma (but often not) and we dump them on the street with no way to attend college or even get training for a non-college job. And flipping burgers at McDonald's does not even pay for food, clothes, and a room.

Even a genius with a full ride to some college has to have someone backing them up when problems arise. These kids have nothing.

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#306913 - 06/05/18 01:48 PM Re: The failure of the public school system [Re: jgw]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 302
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Many years ago (early 90s), my wife was studying at the Industrial College of the Armed Forces (ICAF) for her Masters. She and several classmates went to Europe to study their educations systems. The recommendations made - adapt England's or Germany's.

Education systems are a reflection of the culture in which they develop, thus ours. gobsmacked


Edited by Ujest Shurly (06/05/18 01:49 PM)
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#306915 - 06/05/18 07:07 PM Re: The failure of the public school system [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1960
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Our local college made a change to teaching healthcare stuff (not doctors) last year and are going, I understand, gangbusters. They used to have a class for massage but they stopped that one (there were a LOT of massage folks when they were running that class)

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#306916 - 06/05/18 07:09 PM Re: The failure of the public school system [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1960
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
DoVoss has one goal - destroy the public school system and then every school will be a stand-alone for profit operation. If she gets her way it will be one of biggest dumbing down the nation will have to date (there are any number of charter school disasters but she is sticking to it anyway)

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#306917 - 06/05/18 07:11 PM Re: The failure of the public school system [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1960
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I have reported this one before but it bears repeating. In Vietnam they have a system. The first 4 hours are for instruction and, after lunch, they do their homework. This is overseen by upper classmen/women. If any student fails, so does the upperclassman who supervised the homework.

They do the homework at school as many of the parents are not competent to help with studies. On top of that most highschool kids have jobs that they do at night so getting the homework out of the way works for them.

I should also mention that the UK too has a large selection of trades/skills to teach in lieu of college. Oh, and those too are all free. I think one of the worst things is the business of 'loaning' money to students to goto college and saddling them with debt that will never get paid back whilst wrecking said student's credit for all time. I will not go into my feelings on this one other than to say that this is, quite possibly, the most despicable thing that education has done to students.


Edited by jgw (06/05/18 07:15 PM)

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#306927 - 06/06/18 06:38 PM Re: The failure of the public school system [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7620
Loc: North San Diego County
A real vocational program that teaches massage therapy would be a great thing. Massage is very often underrated because of the equation with massage parlors that sell sex. Even without the sex, it can do some great things for people with injuries, the elderly, and so forth. It can dramatically cut the need for opiate pain medication.

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#306943 - 06/08/18 08:51 PM Re: The failure of the public school system [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1960
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
If I understand the European system the money follows the student rather than the school system. This, in turn, has created a lot of what we would call charter schools. The difference is that the state monitors such schools very closely, schools have to qualify to start, and gov rates those that survive. This allows parents to decide where they think their children would do best.

Here, however, charter schools, in many cases, have turned out to be complete disasters. Some simply take the money and don't do much of anything, some take the money and then go broke letting everybody swing in the wind, Some are just plain incompetent. There are, apparently, no standards for charter schools in many places. I remember when one state, with charter schools, actually had one charter school run by the teacher's union. They didn't last very long.

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