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#307195 - 07/01/18 03:21 AM Round Table For July 2018
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14195
Loc: Florida

Welcome to the ReaderRant Roundtable for July 2018
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#307196 - 07/01/18 03:39 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14195
Loc: Florida
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307206 - 07/01/18 07:05 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
I almost forgot that it is July. Halfway through another calendar... OMG, OMG, OMG... what a half a year it has been.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#307232 - 07/03/18 03:30 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41017
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
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#307235 - 07/03/18 05:13 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
I recognize that this story is not over, yet, but I have been buoyed all day by this: Thailand cave rescue: Boys found alive after nine days. I never expected this to happen.

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#307237 - 07/03/18 10:24 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pdx rick]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 347
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Originally Posted By: pdx rick


It proves President Donald (DICKtator Wannabe) Trump is like Typhoid Mary - Idiocy is contagious.
_________________________
Vote 2018; give meaning and honor to those who made sure you have the right to vote.

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The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#307238 - 07/03/18 11:25 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41017
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I recognize that this story is not over, yet, but I have been buoyed all day by this: Thailand cave rescue: Boys found alive after nine days. I never expected this to happen.

I'm surprised as well, and happy for the rescued and their families. smile
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#307239 - 07/03/18 03:22 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Online   content
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
Remember, this is a W. pick. Literacy was not a hallmark of his administration, either. I think, though, that the judge in question misses the larger point - whether literacy is a "fundamental right" is largely immaterial, because it has become an "Equal application of the law" problem since the legislature now insists that literacy is a requirement to "graduate" third grade.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#307251 - 07/04/18 01:36 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7885
Loc: North San Diego County
I think the solution might be to teach those kids how to scuba dive. They have brought in months worth of food, so they have lots of time to do it. The distances of flooded caves they have to traverse is incredible. It might be faster to just drill a shaft down to where they are.

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#307253 - 07/04/18 04:17 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41017
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
It might be faster to just drill a shaft down to where they are.

I was thinking the very same thing. Hmm One map that I saw showed that the group was 1.25 miles in from the mouth of the cave.

How did they get in there with a dry cave floor bed in the first place? Did water "suddenly" come from behind them? Hmm
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#307255 - 07/04/18 04:37 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Online   content
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
There are a couple of technical problems with drilling a shaft, not the least of which is figuring out where to drill it. Hitting a small target deep underground is extremely difficult. What if they miss? Months of effort can be lost. I suspect they'll start with air/communication shafts.

I'm a scuba diver. Let me clarify: I'm a recreational diver. I don't dive caves because they are extremely dangerous and scary as hell. The professional divers who reached the team had to dig out the tunnels to fit through. There is zero visibility, and currents. They had to leave guidelines behind to avoid getting lost. I have a hard time imagining an 11-year-old attempting it.

And yes, the cave was dry when they entered, and it was a month before monsoon season, so they weren't expecting rain. The caves flooded behind them. It is now monsoon season.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#307257 - 07/04/18 06:47 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8867
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Patriotism. I just got back from my little town's 4th of July parade - it's not much, fire trucks, baseball teams, a couple of churches, PFLAG, enviros, tractors, classic cars, etc. But the most notable thing in my observation was that practically nobody stood when the local military color guard went by. Make of it what you will.

On Saturdays, we get a program on the local public radio station called The Thomas Jefferson Hour with historian Clay Jenkinson playing TJ in present day interviews. It's very good. A line from the last show really struck me. Jefferson was talking about opening the White House to the public twice a year during his presidency, one day being the 4th. He said he didn't mingle freely with the crowd because of the importance of "preserving the dignity of the office". I thought, "Well, so much for that..."
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#307263 - 07/05/18 07:56 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Online   content
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Posts: 16203
Embattled EPA head Pruitt resigns - the Hill. Small favors. Do you think he's hoping to avoid indictment? I say "small favors" because his deputy, Andrew Wheeler, may be as bad as, or worse than, Pruitt. Remember, he was, until narrowly approved on a party-line vote, a coal lobbyist. Who Is Andrew Wheeler? (And Why You Should Be Afraid of Him) - nrdc.
Quote:
his most recent job was as an energy lobbyist. His biggest clients included Murray Energy Corporation, which proudly bills itself as the largest coal mining company in America, and whose CEO, Robert E. Murray, vigorously fought the Obama administration’s attempts to reduce carbon emissions and strengthen environmental and public health laws. Shortly after Trump took office, Murray, an unabashed climate denier, presented Vice President Mike Pence with a ridiculously pro-coal “action plan” that called for doing away with the Clean Power Plan, withdrawing from the Paris climate agreement, eliminating federal tax credits for renewable energy, and—yes—halving the EPA’s workforce.

In his spare time, Wheeler serves as the vice president of the Washington Coal Club, a powerful yet little-known federation of more than 300 coal producers, lawmakers, business leaders, and policy experts who have dedicated themselves to preserving the uncertain future of our dirtiest fossil fuel. Wheeler clearly loves coal, but he’s also made time to lobby the U.S. Department of the Interior to open portions of the Bears Ears National Monument to uranium mining.

It gets worse...


Edited by NW Ponderer (07/05/18 08:03 PM)

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#307271 - 07/06/18 12:19 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7885
Loc: North San Diego County
Had to kill another rattler yesterday. Damned thing was 2 feet from my house. That's about 20 so far in the decade I have lived here. It's 20 to 0 so far, but I have paid for a lot of antivenon for my dogs.

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#307274 - 07/06/18 12:52 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7885
Loc: North San Diego County
Scott Pruitt is out. Resigned today. You know, when an administration has to fire so many of their top people, it doesn't so much reflect on those people as it does on the idiot who hired them. Trump is TERRIBLE at finding good competent people to hire!

I suppose a narcissist always has to hire people who are worse than him, just so he can exercise the "boss being disappointed in them" scenario. He must be running low on candidates who are worse knobs than him.

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#307276 - 07/06/18 02:08 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14195
Loc: Florida
Good, competent people won't work for him.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307278 - 07/06/18 05:11 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
Sadly: Thai cave rescue: Former Navy diver dies while exiting flooded tunnels - CNN. Unfortunately it demonstrates both the risk rescuers are taking and the dangers the team still faces.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#307283 - 07/06/18 11:25 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
Kaine Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 2150
Loc: Pennsylvania

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#307284 - 07/06/18 01:42 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 347
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Let it FLY!
_________________________
Vote 2018; give meaning and honor to those who made sure you have the right to vote.

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

Top
#307286 - 07/06/18 04:56 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41017
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Sadly: Thai cave rescue: Former Navy diver dies while exiting flooded tunnels - CNN. Unfortunately it demonstrates both the risk rescuers are taking and the dangers the team still faces.


cry , Bow
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#307287 - 07/06/18 06:16 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7885
Loc: North San Diego County
The soccer kids reported hearing sounds from outside as soon as the divers found them. Rescuers should really try to find out if there is a back passage somewhere. They could just form a massive grid pattern about where they think the kids are but above ground, and shoot a gun as they walk the grid. If anybody in the cave hears them, they stop walking. Then each member of the search party shoots in turn. If there is a hole, they could locate it very quickly.

This has the great advantage of letting hundreds of people help in the rescue, not just a few advanced scuba divers.

Another thing they could try is to release some distinctive odor inside the cave. Then let dog teams go over the outside to locate the scent. I would suggest drug-sniffing dogs since so many of them are already trained to locate those specific scents. Also they are so sensitive, you wouldn't have to drug everybody in the cave. Just use a little bit of cannabis or opium.

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#307299 - 07/07/18 06:13 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7885
Loc: North San Diego County
I see North Korea is refuting Trump's claim that any real progress has been made toward denuclearization. Just as EVERYBODY but Trump expected. Who'd a thunk it? The scorpion is still a scorpion, and Pepe is still a poor dumb frog.

BTW, speaking of Pepe The Frog, I have noticed most use of Pepe images on 4chan are by posters who are miserable because of breakups, sexual identity crises, or planning suicide.

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#307308 - 07/08/18 04:16 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41017
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


Six of the Thai soccer players have been rescued and are out of the cave. Six more, plus the coach still need to be.

smile
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#307321 - 07/09/18 04:43 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
Eight have now been extracted. One more day, hopefully...

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#307346 - 07/10/18 03:18 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
All the kids and the coach are out! Now to rescue the rescuers. (Three divers and a doctor are still in the cave.)

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#307359 - 07/10/18 09:37 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7885
Loc: North San Diego County
Everybody is out now, all okay. They should give Saman Kunan, the diver who died the highest military honor they have. I would contribute to an internet fund for his wife. I think a lot of people would.

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#307372 - 07/11/18 10:14 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
Apparently the exfiltration of the Thai SEALs and doctor was a near-run thing. The pump lowering the water level back failed and water started rising in the cave so they had to expedite their departure ahead of the flood.

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#307376 - 07/12/18 03:35 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13267
Loc: Whittier, California
Good evening,
The Trump administration is now using funds from by reallocating money from the Ryan White HIV/AIDS Program.

According to documents leaked to Slate, funding is already being drained from the primary government programme for HIV/AIDS care in the US to fund the surge in detention work undertaken by the Office of Refugee Resettlement.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#307380 - 07/12/18 04:35 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
That's f"&_ing illegal!! Antideficiency Act

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#307381 - 07/12/18 04:38 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41017
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
...The Trump administration is now using funds from by reallocating money from the Ryan White HIV/AIDS Program. ...


Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
That's f"&_ing illegal!! Antideficiency Act

Every single, day, Trump and Pence make America hate again. Hmm
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#307398 - 07/12/18 08:00 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 16203
I have watched a chunk of the hearing Peter Strzok is testifying at today. He's handled himself well. The lack of candor and acumen of the Representatives doing the queries is embarrassing. We're in a world of hurt that these are the people representing us.

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#307419 - 07/14/18 12:30 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13267
Loc: Whittier, California
In other news, in a case of clearly FERAL children, three teens terrorized a ONE year old infant with a taser.
They were arrested Monday night in central Arkansas after videos posted to Snapchat showed a baby they were supposed to be caring for instead being taunted with a taser, authorities said.
Two of the girls said they didn't see any "wrongdoing in their actions," a police report says, and they blamed the girl who posted the videos to Snapchat in the first place.

If adults show this atrocious behavior why are we surprised if kids do it?
This is the sign of a feral society, encouraged and enabled by feral leadership.

What have we become?
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#307420 - 07/14/18 01:16 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14195
Loc: Florida
Quote:
What have we become?
A nation of Republicans.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307422 - 07/14/18 02:45 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7885
Loc: North San Diego County
Prison time for the girls, and for God's Sake, sterilize them all. They should NEVER be in a position to make life and death decisions for an infant again. 10 is supposed to be The Age of Reason. Not 18.

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#307423 - 07/14/18 05:01 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3821
Loc: Eugene, OR
Trump fans love that. In fact there is nothing about Trump and his Gang they do not love. They love everything about him... and his gang of Thugs. Trump et al are their wet dreams “come” true.

“We” wait for the next election. I firmly believe there will be much more dire conniptions occurring before that event. Very much more dire.....And no.....we are not having fun yet.
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#307430 - 07/14/18 03:14 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
What have we become?
A nation of Republicans.
Sadly, that is too "on point". When the Chief executive of the nation is an unadulterated A-hole, it kind of gives permission for everyone else to follow his example.

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#307443 - 07/15/18 03:27 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41017
Loc: Puget Sound, WA



I knew that 'dress" looked familiar. smile
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#307444 - 07/15/18 03:34 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41017
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


The Brits even got the light circles around the eyes and the tiny hands and fingers, correct.

Hmm

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#307446 - 07/15/18 12:28 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41017
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


Trump is told to f-off in Edinburgh. smile

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#307448 - 07/15/18 06:43 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
Originally Posted By: pdx rick



I knew that 'dress" looked familiar. smile

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#307449 - 07/15/18 07:42 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13267
Loc: Whittier, California
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#307452 - 07/15/18 08:00 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41017
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

Sasha Cohen Barron gets ReTHUGliclown politicians to advocate for Toddler/Child gun use training:

Quote:
To stop a bad guy with a gun, it takes a good child with a gun.




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#307473 - 07/16/18 03:29 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

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Trump is again blaming victims - so 1980s - saying DNC was responsible for the hack.
Just to prove I'm not making it up: Trump: DNC 'should be ashamed' for Russian hack - Politico.


Edited by NW Ponderer (07/16/18 03:32 PM)
Edit Reason: Add citation

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#307497 - 07/17/18 11:14 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41017
Loc: Puget Sound, WA



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#307499 - 07/17/18 01:17 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 347
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Time for another Russia thread?

Maria Butina, the NRA, The Republican Party, Russia

Lets see, checking and updating the binge list - popcorn, water and decaf, recliner, catheters, ...
_________________________
Vote 2018; give meaning and honor to those who made sure you have the right to vote.

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#307507 - 07/17/18 07:02 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13267
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pdx rick





Oh look, Trump was right! He really could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and get away with it.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#307514 - 07/17/18 10:11 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7885
Loc: North San Diego County
I wonder how the guys in the New York FBI office are feeling these days.

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#307521 - 07/18/18 04:52 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41017
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Oh look, Trump was right! He really could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and get away with it.


LOL

cry
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#307522 - 07/18/18 04:53 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Apparently, Fatass gets all tongue-tied and "misspeaks" standing next to this boyfriend, Vlad. coffee
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#307523 - 07/18/18 06:21 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
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Loc: North San Diego County
Trump keeps claiming "No Colusion" but I don't think he knows what that word means. When you tell somebody to commit a crime, and they do the next day, that's collusion. When your people tell criminals to release stolen information on a certain day for maximum effect, and they do, that's collusion. When you send people to a meeting with criminals to obtain stolen data, that's collusion.
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#307524 - 07/18/18 11:37 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Trump keeps claiming "No Colusion" but I don't think he knows what that word means. When you tell somebody to commit a crime, and they do the next day, that's collusion. When your people tell criminals to release stolen information on a certain day for maximum effect, and they do, that's collusion. When you send people to a meeting with criminals to obtain stolen data, that's collusion.

Donald J Trump is simply not a very bright man. He's just not. Hmm
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#307525 - 07/18/18 02:28 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Online   content
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Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Trump keeps claiming "No Colusion" but I don't think he knows what that word means. When you tell somebody to commit a crime, and they do the next day, that's collusion. When your people tell criminals to release stolen information on a certain day for maximum effect, and they do, that's collusion. When you send people to a meeting with criminals to obtain stolen data, that's collusion.

Donald J Trump is simply not a very bright man. He's just not. Hmm
and that is why he is so perfect for his voters.
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#307526 - 07/18/18 03:32 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Trump keeps claiming "No Colusion" but I don't think he knows what that word means. When you tell somebody to commit a crime, and they do the next day, that's collusion. When your people tell criminals to release stolen information on a certain day for maximum effect, and they do, that's collusion. When you send people to a meeting with criminals to obtain stolen data, that's collusion.

Donald J Trump is simply not a very bright man. He's just not. Hmm
and that is why he is so perfect for his voters.


Many of which were the democratic base a few cycles ago.....

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#307597 - 07/22/18 01:17 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
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Did you know that the SEC does not allow people with less than a million dollars in assets to invest in “unregistered” securities? Meaning small businesses who have not jumped through the Gordian knot of SEC regulations?

I am currently soliciting investors in my biochar business, and I can only offer the opportunity to millionaires.
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#307598 - 07/22/18 03:59 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


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That's one regulation I daresay we could do without.
Is there a reason why?
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#307600 - 07/22/18 12:10 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
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I don’t know if it was original to the Securities Exchange Act in 1934, but its intention is to protect “little people” from making investment mistakes because of their supposed lack of knowledge and experience. The fact that it based soley on how much money a person has, as the indicator of financial intelligence and responsibility, I find to be a bit offensive and wrongheaded, though.
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#307601 - 07/22/18 03:56 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Online   content
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While I don't disagree with the offense taken, I think it was more about who could "afford to take the risk".

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#307604 - 07/22/18 06:11 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
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The idea is that a high-risk venture should not be an investment for a person who can't afford to lose it when the little company tanks. Of course, brokers let pretty much anyone trade options. Some of them are actually more conservative than owning the underlying stock, but some are way more risky.

There are all kinds of schemes that can get you past angel-status. For example, buy a bankrupt company that has registered to sell stock.

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#307611 - 07/22/18 11:45 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
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The regulation is rather explicit about having the savvy to make the investment.

I think there is a need to provide some regulation on investment solicitation, but to exclude all but millionaires from making even $10 investments in unregulated securities, while allowing low wage workers to buy cars on credit, and to take out "payday" loans with mind-blowing interest rates, implies a complete lack of sense and integrity of intent.
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#307612 - 07/22/18 11:47 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
The idea is that a high-risk venture should not be an investment for a person who can't afford to lose it when the little company tanks.

Why the assumption that it would be high risk? The regs do not regulate risk.
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#307613 - 07/22/18 11:53 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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"An accredited investor is a person or entity that can deal with securities not registered with financial authorities by satisfying one of the requirements regarding income, net worth, asset size, governance status or professional experience. The term is used by the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) under Regulation D to refer to investors who are financially sophisticated and have a reduced need for the protection provided by regulatory disclosure filings. Accredited investors include natural individuals, banks, insurance companies, brokers and trusts.

Read more: Accredited Investor https://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/accreditedinvestor.asp#ixzz5M1xqmRZW
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#307614 - 07/22/18 11:59 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Disclaimer: I am a local investment opportunity missionary... investing in businesses owned and operated by people you know and trust should not be harder than millionaires investing in who knows what.
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#307617 - 07/23/18 02:58 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
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I saw Rob Reiner's Shock and Awe last night. It just reminded me of how every time the Republicans get into Office, everyone's lives are determinately affected in a negative way.

Every...single...time. mad , Hmm
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#307619 - 07/23/18 04:56 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Quote:
Why the assumption that it would be high risk?


Because of the extremely high failure for small business startups. If a business has the capital and the people to get registered with the SEC, then the failure rate is lower. And if some small investor buys SPY, the risk of a total loss is almost non-existent.

And the sad truth is that most investors would be better off buying SPY than investing in anything else. Trump certainly would have been, with the 100 million his father gave him.

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#307621 - 07/23/18 08:05 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Online   content
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Originally Posted By: logtroll
"An accredited investor is ....
thanks, log. I stand corrected. Or, as Trump would say, "I can't stand to be corrected."

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#307622 - 07/23/18 09:29 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
Why the assumption that it would be high risk?


Because of the extremely high failure for small business startups. If a business has the capital and the people to get registered with the SEC, then the failure rate is lower..

Do have substantiation for that claim?

Undercapitalization is a common reason for startup failure. Maybe that has something to do with it being difficult to access capital? Debt is another reason for startup failure - and often taking on debt is the only option for raising capital.
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#307628 - 07/23/18 07:24 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Do your own google searches. It's all over the internet.

Quote:
Undercapitalization is a common reason for startup failure. Maybe that has something to do with it being difficult to access capital?


Or more likely it's the other way around: It's hard for startups to get capital because their failure rate is so high. If they go to the trouble to create a realistic business plan, in most cases they give up the idea immediately, because most of them have bad ideas for a startup business.

You know, there is a simple way around this: You organize your business as a partnership, so every person working in the business is a partner. You don't need a bunch of capital if the business is scaleable. You make a profit in the first month and just keep on scaling it up gradually. You end up with an employee owned business. You can make it unequal shares, if you want to maintain control.

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#307631 - 07/24/18 12:21 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
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I wonder if you have any actual experience with these things, PIA?
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#307634 - 07/24/18 06:08 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
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I've considered many startups with electronic engineering products only to find that they could not succeed. I've been a principle investigator on three different Small Business Innovative Research grants. These were grants from different government agencies that funded creation of a business plan. But my partner and I actually also used the money to build working prototypes. One from NASA was for a computer vision system that would have a recurring role on the ISS.

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#307642 - 07/25/18 03:55 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Online   content
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Trump-Cohen tape released. Wanna know what a conspiracy sounds like? Proof that Trump and Giuliani flat out lied (and still are).

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#307643 - 07/25/18 04:47 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Trump-Cohen tape released. Wanna know what a conspiracy sounds like? Proof that Trump and Giuliani flat out lied (and still are).

Yup. Bow

Supposedly, there are 12 more tapes. LOL
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#307644 - 07/25/18 04:48 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
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Glastonbury, Connecticut, McDonalds throws shade at brand-new Chick-fil-A opening next door to them:

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#307647 - 07/25/18 12:21 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I've considered many startups with electronic engineering products only to find that they could not succeed. I've been a principle investigator on three different Small Business Innovative Research grants.

Interesting, but how does that relate to having the same freedom to solicit investors as a rich person has? Were you unqualified to take products to commercialization because you lacked the "sophistication" that comes with being a millionaire?
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#307654 - 07/25/18 07:08 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
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No, you questioned my experience with startups and small (micro!) businesses, and I told you about it. And I could be a "qualified investor" if I wanted to be. I just have not found somebody else's business idea that I think is a sure thing lately. Instead I have real estate investments that are very low risk.

And in fact, moderate residential real estate is what I would recommend for anybody with $100,000 to invest. You let the rent you collect make the mortgage payments and by the time you retire you have a nice steady inflation-proof income. If you have a few million, then sure: Take a swing at some sort of brilliant startup idea.

I'm purposefully taking the investor's side here, instead of the entrepreneur's, since I think you are representing the entrepreneur's position well.

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#307656 - 07/25/18 08:49 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
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Really, my only point is that having a million dollars isn't a realistic determinant between being "sophisticated" enough to invest without protections, or not. I think it is a sign of the irrational advantage we accord to people with money.

The rest of your comments about business startups and entrepreneurs is what I have been hearing from SBDC bureaucrats for decades, and my opinion (from my experience) is that they are just parroting clichés, for the most part. They don't actually understand what the real issues are for small businesses, or have any useful advice beyond "write a business plan on go see if you can get a loan".
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#307657 - 07/25/18 11:04 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Having a million dollars is a VERY good indicator that you made good investment choices in the past. Most people didn't make good choices and don't have a million dollars. When they win the lotto or inherit a big wad of cash, their choices are so bad they are poor again within a few years. The angel rule is there to protect them.

You may actually be able to use the Small Business Innovative Research program. They offer $50K for any government agency to fund an innovative project. With that grant, you have to write a very good business plan that details exactly how your new business would fulfill some agency's need. Agencies are everything from NASA to Department of Agriculture (which is probably the agency you want). The government publishes a big book every year of different agency's needs. You need to get a copy (maybe at a library) and look through it to see what USDA wants. My projects were from NASA to measure astronauts body volumes and USDA to estimate hog body volume using the same 3D computer vision system.

If the agency likes your report, then they can give you $500K to actually start the business! And that's not a loan. You never have to pay either the $50K or $500K back and you still own 100% of the business.

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#307659 - 07/25/18 11:58 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
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Most people I know with a million bucks inherited it.

I am a two time Phase 1 SBIR grant recipient and one time Phase 2. I am writing another Phase 1 right now.

I would love to have 100 local folks invest $5,000 in commercializing one of my "products", but, alas, the SEC does not consider them to be "sophisticated" enough for the simple reason that they are not millionaires.


Edited by logtroll (07/26/18 12:04 AM)
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#307672 - 07/27/18 01:49 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
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I don't think you are really describing the investment type correctly: Angels (qualified investors) typically buy a large percentage of a startup. What you are describing is a Limited Liability Partnership. Investors could buy LP units for $5000, and you would be the managing General Partner. I don't think the SEC requires LP buyers to be qualified investors. I wasn't qualified when I bought some units. I think lots of businesses operate in this way. You need to talk to a local business lawyer. I think you could set this up pretty inexpensively.

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#307675 - 07/27/18 02:25 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14195
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Most people didn't make good choices and don't have a million dollars.

blush **sheepishly raises hand** blush
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#307676 - 07/27/18 02:42 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
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I suppose many unsophisticated investors don’t realize that the SEC requires new members in an unregistered LLC to be accredited.

The law is screwed up and needs to be changed to a more reasonable and rational set of conditions.
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#307695 - 07/27/18 10:43 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13267
Loc: Whittier, California
In other news, a Tampa family WITH insurance was denied an ambulance ride because paramedics still doubted that they could afford the cost of the ambulance service.

Quote:
After help arrived, Black claims she and her daughter were told they could not afford an ambulance ride.

"They never asked us if we had insurance, which we do,” Black said, adding that she feels stereotyped.

After getting Galloway down the stairs, Black says the medics again told the women they couldn't afford an ambulance.


What have we become?
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#307696 - 07/27/18 11:39 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
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I did not know you could create an LLC and then not register it. What are your state's fees to register an LLC? I know companies like LegalZoom do it for you for $79 plus the state fees. People with taco trucks do this, for God's sake. Next you are going to be complaining about the income tax your LLC will have to pay.

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#307699 - 07/28/18 12:08 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
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I suppose if you had actual experience with these things, we could talk about the nuances. Whatever.

My issue was that the SEC judges millionaires to be "qualified" to invest in non-registered securities, while "poor" people lack the sophistication to take any risk.

LLCs are still new business structures, from the point of view of the IRS and the SEC. I am sure there are thousands of LLCs that are operating in grey areas of the law, quite happily ignorant until some [censored] decides to sue over a technicality.

The crux is this: why shouldn't less-than-millionaires be allowed to invest modestly in whatever the hell they want?
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#307701 - 07/28/18 12:37 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Because so many unsophisticated people would "invest" in ponzi schemes, pyramid marketing schemes, and outright frauds. Why shouldn't we let people send their bank account numbers to Nigerian Princes who just need someplace to park their millions? It's their bank account! If they want to risk it that's their business.

Being a qualified investor is good evidence that you do due diligence and fully investigate any investment opportunity. Being "poor" is good evidence you have no idea how to do that. Because being rich or poor probably indicates if you have been ripped off in the past, and will be in the future. When a company files with the SEC or with their state for an LLC, that's pretty good evidence that it's not fraudulent.

BTW: LLCs have been around for 41 years. They sound exactly like what you want, but I guess it's more in the spirit of the internet to rant about the difficulty of something than to actually do it.

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#307705 - 07/28/18 04:00 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41017
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I did not know you could create an LLC and then not register it. What are your state's fees to register an LLC? I know companies like LegalZoom do it for you for $79 plus the state fees. People with taco trucks do this, for God's sake. Next you are going to be complaining about the income tax your LLC will have to pay.

Paying one's fair share of taxes tends to turn some people into Republicans. coffee
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#307706 - 07/28/18 04:07 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
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Of course Fatass knew about the Trump Tower meeting:

The meeting came together because a music publicist with a Russian client emailed Don Jr. offering to put together a meeting with some Russians who had “some official documents and information” that constituted “very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump.”

Don Jr.’s response was: “If it’s what you say I love it.”

Two days before the Trump Tower meeting:

Quote:
“I am going to give a major speech on probably Monday of next week and we’re going to be discussing all of the things that have taken place with the Clintons,” Trump said on June 7. “I think you’re going to find it very informative and very, very interesting.”

- Fatass


The Monday in question was June 13.

The meeting takes place with Jr, Kushner and Manafort, plus seven Russians. The meeting ends because there is really no "dirt" on Hillary.

What is Fatass going to say on Monday?

Sunday, June 12 - Pulse Nightclub shooting.

A media advisory from the Trump campaign later that same day, June 12th, said the speech was canceled “due to the horrific tragedy that has just taken place.”

Quote:

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
Appreciate the congrats for being right on radical Islamic terrorism, I don't want congrats, I want toughness & vigilance. We must be smart!


Fatass never gave the "dirt on Hillary" speech - and it wasn't because of the Pulse Night Club shooting. It was the Russians didn't deliver at Trump Tower as promised to Don Jr.

Hmm
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#307708 - 07/28/18 12:03 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
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Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
I quit. There is a reason rich people control everything, I guess. It’s as it should be, morally true, and righteous, too.
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#307711 - 07/28/18 12:47 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: logtroll]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I quit. There is a reason rich people control everything, I guess. It’s as it should be, morally true, and righteous, too.


Spoken like a true Calvinist smile

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#307712 - 07/28/18 12:54 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8867
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Let's not forget Hobbes, the genius behind the man boy Calvin.

Question: Are Trump's tariffs, and his subsequent corrective subsidies and spot exemptions, an exercise in capitalism or socialism?
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#307713 - 07/28/18 02:28 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 347
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Neither, it is Trumpism: an attempt to mollify the base, with federal largesse so the base will vote Trump this November. A tactic republicans have used since Raygun (Reagan).
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#307714 - 07/28/18 02:38 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Or cronyism

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#307715 - 07/28/18 04:34 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13267
Loc: Whittier, California
In other news, a man in India has decided that Trump is God.

He worships Trump's picture every day in a home shrine, but he also hopes to complete work on a temple devoted to Donald Trump, in six months.



Ironically, he knows very little about Donald Trump, but he's convinced that Trump must be powerful, as was once a wrestler in the WWF.
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#307717 - 07/28/18 09:36 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
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Quote:
I quit.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I certainly never suggested you quit. I believe in your product because you've presented evidence here that it works very well. But a good idea is only half the battle.

Business is hard. Starting one is a complex multi-step process, but there are several different ways to do it. Complaining about how hard it is, isn't one of them. But lots of people do manage to start them, and you already have a great product and the intelligence to write successful SBIR grants. That's a LOT more than the typical Joe starting a burrito truck or a drain-cleaning service.

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#307718 - 07/28/18 09:52 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8867
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Thanks for the confirmation. What I meant was I quit trying to have a productive discussion with you, since I finally recognized that you don't seem to understand anything I have said.

Whatever.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#307722 - 07/29/18 12:33 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8867
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
When a company files with the SEC or with their state for an LLC, that's pretty good evidence that it's not fraudulent.

Please note that the subject of my posts about is registering with the SEC.

An LLC can't be created without authorization by the state.


Edited by logtroll (07/29/18 12:34 AM)
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#307725 - 07/29/18 12:43 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
The link wasn't working anymore, so here is an update on the "failure to transport" story: 4 Paramedics Suspended For Failing To Transport Dying Woman - Brandon Patch. This relates why I started the thread, Brown and White. Florida is particularly bad when it comes to making assumptions based upon color. I observed it first hand when I lived there, and it is manifest in so many ways. Man in deadly 'stand your ground' shooting won't face charges: police - The Hill; Is There Racial Bias in “Stand Your Ground” Laws? - Frontline (short answer: of course there is!).
Quote:
Whites who kill blacks in Stand Your Ground states are far more likely to be found justified in their killings. In non-Stand Your Ground states, whites are 250 percent more likely to be found justified in killing a black person than a white person who kills another white person; in Stand Your Ground states, that number jumps to 354 percent.
In the case of "the woman who wouldn't be transported," they just used an ambulance instead of a gun.

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#307727 - 07/29/18 04:46 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7885
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
you don't seem to understand anything I have said

I am pretty sure I understand perfectly. You have a product that works great. You want to finance a business to manufacture the product. You can either file as a public company and offer stock, or seek "angel" qualified investors who the SEC has recognized, or register with the state to form an LCC and sell limited partnership units to anybody while retaining control by making yourself the general partner. You are incensed that the SEC requires angels to be millionaires.

I understand. I just don't agree with you. Your position is very Libertarian: "Why won't the government let me do what I want." My position is from the consumer protection viewpoint. I happen to think that capitalism is a wonderful thing, but needs government regulation to keep it honest and fair.

You never did answer the question of how much your state charges for LLC registration. I would look it up myself, but I'm not sure what state that would be in.

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#307728 - 07/29/18 05:23 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8867
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Thanks for clarifying that you don't understand what I have been saying.

I have four LLCs, they cost fifty bucks to file. One of them registered with the SEC and did a direct public offering. None of them can legally take on unaccredited investors without registering with the SEC. I do have some libertarian streaks, but that's is not what I posted about in the beginning.

What I posted about is the ridiculousness of using a million dollars in assets as a rational threshold for determining a "sophisticated investor".

You interjected everything else and I couldn't steer you back to the point that I wanted to discuss.

There's my clarification.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#307731 - 07/29/18 08:22 PM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8867
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#307734 - 07/30/18 08:50 AM Re: Round Table For July 2018 [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7885
Loc: North San Diego County
First mention in the thread that you have ANY LLCs, otherwise I would not have tried to explore that possibility with you. I was under the impression that under Rule 504 you can have unaccredited investors, but maybe I'm wrong about that. I bow to the expert. Bow

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