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#307241 - 07/03/18 06:06 PM Pie Chart Fight
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Allright NWP,
I've moved the conversation over to a new thread regarding your thirdway article you linked to in the 'End of the Independant Judiciary'.
Again, what was there in the graphs and pie charts that would have predicted a decidedly left of center populist run as successful as the Sanders challenge?

It goes a long way to explaining centrisms lack of imagination and reliance on data driven analytics and numbers. Helps explain their contempt for the left wing of the party and constantly sidelining progressives in the primaries.

But where has the pie charts gotten them and the once progressive party it now leads?

Finally, the much talked about Clinton machine was looking at numbers from Brooklyn and concluded that they did not need to go to Michigan nor Wisconsin until it was too late. This says more about the technocratic managerial class and the feed back loop data sets they love to look at than the reality on the ground. A reality that was getting screamed at them by state operatives in these very same battle ground states!
An out of touch, professional class pandering, leadership that lost touch with broad swaths of the American public is how I and many others see it.
Cortez's victory showed you can broaden the base on issues having broad support. The third way seems to playing a game of reduction and micro targeting that has lead to this historic wipe out. The party needs to stop trying to drive the car forward by looking in the rear view mirror.

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#307254 - 07/04/18 12:45 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Here's the thing, Chunk. Pie Charts are just graphical representations of the empirical evidence. They are just a way of demonstrating in digestible form the information they are derived from. There's a lot of grousing going on, here. But there is no refuting Pondering's point: "All of those different things combined to give us Trump. Just about any single one of them could have given Clinton a win." Clinton did win the popular vote. It should not have been close, actually. But it was. The difference, really, was discipline. The Republicans voted for their candidate. The Democrats didn't (in the right places). A change of 80,000 votes out of 128,838,342 or .0621% would have changed the result (or about 1/36th of Clinton's popular vote margin).

I'm sorry, but, having been steeped in Political Science since I was a Freshman in college, I tend to think in terms of analysis rather than speculation. The argument that "Bernie would have done better" is meaningless for all kinds of reasons, not the least of which is that it is purely counterfactual. The same polls that are used for that argument also projected Clinton to win by a landslide (she didn't). Statistically speaking, the margin of Trump's victory can be entirely demonstrated to have been the result of Comey's actions. The Comey Letter Probably Cost Clinton The Election - Fivethirtyeight. There are other reasons, of course, but that is as good as any.

As you noted, of course, this should all have been relegated to a different thread. This thread is supposed to be about the judiciary (or lack thereof).


Thanks for explaining how a pie chart works. I'll just add that they're the same as wood planers. Garbage in garbage out.
I, too, was steeped in politics. Well before my stint at community college. I was around eight or nine and me and my siblings had to help put strike signs together for a picket line. We ate government cheese that year and there was no family vacations.
There's other ways to learn about politics than sitting in a class room.
You still haven't responded to my critique of your article. Is it valid and. If not, why?


Edited by chunkstyle (07/04/18 01:22 PM)

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#307266 - 07/05/18 09:06 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
Alrighty, chunk, I went back and looked at the original article that (I believe) prompted this thread. (Family Feud). I reached a number of conclusions: first, there are no pie charts in it. That comment had confused me originally, because I didn't remember any. Second, the analysis seems sound to me, and didn't assert anything like you claimed, merely pointing out that "Democratic coalition voters" are less reliable than Republicans and represent broader viewpoints. Finally, I have found no empirical analyses that support your assertions, or that contradict any of mine. Indeed, nothing that refuted any of the points that either Pondering or I made. Maybe I am just missing your argument? Maybe we're talking at cross purposes?

Let me restate my premise: Anyone who voted for anyone other than Clinton (or didn't vote) in the final election is partially responsible for allowing Trump to win. I don't care how "flawed" she was, the contrast was so obvious there is no excuse.

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#307273 - 07/06/18 12:30 AM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7885
Loc: North San Diego County
So if you failed to vote for Clinton, you are going to Hell. devil

Some would say we already are living in Hell now. Hmm

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#307281 - 07/06/18 06:28 AM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
I'm happy to address specific pie charts, if you have some. The premise of the original article didn't address any of the assertions you raise, chunk, so I'm at a loss to respond. In the interim, here's a thought experiment: assume that Democrats have a clear majority of votes (like in the last election); also, assume that 60% of Democratic voters support the socialist candidate rather than the "centrist" candidate (Remember, it's a thought experiment). How many "centrist" voters have to vote for the socialist candidate to win the election?

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#307335 - 07/10/18 04:08 AM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
I called it a pie chart fight because it sounded funnier than 'bar graph fight'.
To me, your referenced article serves as nothing more than a feed back loop.
If the voters self identify then are the same 'lean democrat' voters viewing politics the same? Does someone that 'leans democrat' have the same attitudes in Texas as a lean democrat does in New York?
Then there is the 'holy grail' emperical evidence of going to the center where the moderates dwell. Again, this is bunk as there is no homogeneity between self identifying moderates thruout the country. Nor is the concept of a moderate consistant thruout out time. Moderation 20 years ago meant slashing the safety net and beefing up incarceration rates.
Fancy colledge types trying to reduce politics to a formula. It's appealing to systems managers and technocrats but it's hardly inspiring to anyone else.
Was turn out low in 2016? Does third way centrism (aka republican light) do anything to boost turn out? Oh heck no. Again, Brooklyn used a strategy based on nonsense analytics as the article you referenced. Based a whole strategy on micro targeting and appealing to alienated republican voters. Meanwhile, trump ran a campaign in opposition to their own GOP 'autopsy' report, also full of facts and figures.
So how smart is your emperical evidence crafted strategy?
You don't inspire voters with a spread sheet. You don't get republicans to vote for you by trying to be republican. The last election proved that. Jill stein voters didn't cause a wipe out of the Democratic Party. Weak tea third way democrats did running a resume for president.


Edited by chunkstyle (07/10/18 04:26 AM)

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#307340 - 07/10/18 02:39 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Another case in point. From none other than our 'special friend' the UK.
Third way 'New Labour' PM Tony Blair convincing himself in the Daily Mail that Theresa May is the one to get behind as opposed to Jeremy Corbyn and his lefty politics

Yeah...he said that...

The results are what we've all seen. Corbyn engaged voters with bold ideas and he got them turned out to vote and deliver a crushing defeat to the tories.

In some ways the centrist leadership reminds me of Blair's punch left while going right. I'm convinced it's a mindset coming out of fancy colleges.

I'm not sure why aging boomers in political leadership have sold out of their principles or morphed into this bankrupt 'opportunity thru capitalism' approach for ordering society. My guess is, once in office, they smell the money and walk off in that direction. I'm guessing it's these quant articles that rationalize the palm greasing, allowing such compromised leadership in the party. It's an odd thing to see a cohort of children so enthusiastically embrace market democracy and tear down the new deal but here we are and were stuck with em in leadership. It seems to be reaching it's logical conclusion politically and economically. It will be succeeding generations that will suffer the consequences of these horrible McMansion people politics.

It also perhaps justifies meddling in primary elections.


Edited by chunkstyle (07/10/18 02:40 PM)

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#307342 - 07/10/18 02:58 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
My frustration continues. Absolutely nothing you said addresses anything in the article or its analysis except the assertion that "maybe lean Democratic means different things over time.". In other words, my friend, you are using the same anti-intellectual methodology/language used by the GOP. It's all about the gut and facts don't matter. You do understand why that tends to end, rather than further discussion, right? As my wife often reminds me, "Feelings" can't be refuted.

I do agree that winning elections has to be based upon promoting a popular agenda with popular-enough candidates. But it also involves a lot of analysis - targeting, media buys, messaging, etc. You have acknowledged as much, in your own way. Your response is "it wasn't good enough". To which I say, "Well, duh." But why?

I return to the central question: can the Democrats win without "moderates"? Definite them any way you want to. I'm a moderate.

(BTW, still no pie charts... wink Sarcasm doesn't play well on paper, but you can't have a pie [chart] fight without pies! Put up your pies! [Or charts])

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#307343 - 07/10/18 03:06 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
Okay, now I have to say this: "No, he didn't say that" If you read the article, you find out the headline misstates his statement. It's kind of like relying on Fox Noose for your information. Daily Mail bias.

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#307347 - 07/10/18 04:05 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965

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#307348 - 07/10/18 05:10 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
You can't make the argument anymore than I can from the information given that when the point spread is greatest between activist and the self identified 'average voter' of either party you will lose the election. That seems to be the takeaway. It could also mean that the larger the alienation of a large faction of a party the greater your odds are of losing the election due to low voter turn out. I didn't see, in the study, what the turnout rates were like. Or the commodity price of coffee or the hem lines on woman's skirts, etc...
Centrists like to think of themselves as the 'realists' in the room. Yes, you have a bar graph that shows the point spread between activists of a party and moderates and a whole bunch if 'what this may mean' and 'it can be seen as' type of interpretations regarding a living constantly fluid political process. It's reductionism at it's core and it's looking at a past thru the lens of a narrow set of numbers. Yet it's taken as gospel by the democratic leadership today in spite of racking up historic losses.
Clinton had low voter turnout. That's what cost the Democrats the election. She had fewer voters than Trump. Now the party seems hell bent on punishing those who didn't fall in line with the pie charts.
Again Tiabbi called it:

Low yute turnout. Can't say as I blame em.


Edited by chunkstyle (07/10/18 05:11 PM)

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#307351 - 07/10/18 06:27 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14195
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Clinton had low voter turnout. That's what cost the Democrats the election. She had fewer voters than Trump.

Um...actually she had 3 million more voters than Trump...
It was a pretty weird election. By all rights, Clinton should have won. She'd have been a decent President and buoyed by Sanders overwhelming popularity during the primaries(which, by all rights, he should have won) Clinton would have been emboldened to go farther left than she'd planned.
We'd be living the dream right now instead of Republicans.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307357 - 07/10/18 08:23 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Clinton had low voter turnout. That's what cost the Democrats the election. She had fewer voters than Trump.

Um...actually she had 3 million more voters than Trump...
It was a pretty weird election. By all rights, Clinton should have won. She'd have been a decent President and buoyed by Sanders overwhelming popularity during the primaries(which, by all rights, he should have won) Clinton would have been emboldened to go farther left than she'd planned.
We'd be living the dream right now instead of Republicans.


Yeah, I stand corrected. I should have said she had fewer votes than Trump where it mattered most. I believe the turnout in 2016 was low.

Again, she had a set of statistics that her campaign was staring at that informed the logic of her strategy. The reliance on quants or past empirical evidence was a trap they laid for themselves in much the same way they are resetting it again. They seem to be obtuse to the political changes going on with this backward looking logic.

Here's a graph showing wealth inequality and labor union participation:

What political implications can we draw from this?

One can draw the conclusion that centrist third way democrats have been pursuing their own interests and those of their professional class at the detriment of their base of support. What the graphs are showing us is anyone who voted for third way democrats are eroding working class fortunes and destroying the parties base for the benefit of the top 10%. Just look at the chart...



Edited by chunkstyle (07/10/18 08:24 PM)

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#307360 - 07/11/18 03:20 AM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
Lord, chunk, the leaps you make are astounding. There is literally no correlation between the chart you posted and your conclusion. It's not that I don't agree with your goals, it's the skipping between fact and conclusions without any connections that bugs me.

Oh, and turnout in 2016 was almost the same as 2012.

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#307361 - 07/11/18 11:41 AM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Your exasperation of my leaps of logic is mirrored by my own with all the excuses given for our current political predicament. Crude russian memes and comment postings, fictional Sanders supporter defections, Jill Stien voters, etc..
Ironically, your PBS link pointed to the low voter turn out and lack of enthusiasm in key battle ground states she lost. There has been much reporting of Brookyln not responding to the frantic distress calls of state party chairs. They were ignored because Brooklyn had similar number analysis that you thought to reference.

Then there was the alienation of younger voters that are seeing thru the phony quisling positioning of her centrist politics. That you can't win elections in the U.S, without going right.
Forget the string of election victories in the U.S. For a moment and looking across the pond you can see the mythology of centrism being shattered despite unrelenting attack. Corbyn could be seen as a successful analog to Sanders and the comparisons are not unrelated. Both faced harsh disproportionate attacks from the press, their own party leadership, etc... Despite this Corbyn has gone on and shown the pie charts and bar graphs of 'new Labour's' pearl clutching prediction of doom for the party to be nothing more than self serving perpetuation of the status quo. New Labour still can't draw the meaning from the snap election results of 2017.
Neither can third way democrats take the meaning of Cortez's upset victory. The leadership, like Brooklyn, is only interested in listening to money and looking at pie charts that supports that logic.
For a short walk in the tulips of the last few years of Corbyns treatment by the third way party ( of which Tony Blair belongs ), Jacobin has done a good peice:

Corbyns' quislings

It reads much like our own centrists vs. center left struggle.



Edited by chunkstyle (07/11/18 11:51 AM)

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#307362 - 07/11/18 01:04 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13267
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
By all rights, Clinton should have won. She'd have been a decent President and buoyed by Sanders overwhelming popularity during the primaries(which, by all rights, he should have won) Clinton would have been emboldened to go farther left than she'd planned.
We'd be living the dream right now instead of Republicans.


SHE wouldn't have "been emboldened" but had we preserved the Senate majority, Sanders would have made her go farther left because he'd have been in a position to do so.
She wouldn't have had much choice if she wanted to achieve anything in Congress.
The simple fact is, a Democratic president simply HAS to have Democratic majorities in both chambers of Congress, or they can't accomplish very much, and as we now see, anything short of that means that their accomplishments can be undone by simple strokes of Trump's pen.
Therefore, no matter how "Republican-Lite" Hillz is, if she had Congressional Democrat majorities, she would have had to move a bit more to the Left.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#307364 - 07/11/18 05:59 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
I'm not sure how much pressure one senator could produce to make Clinton go left, Jeff. As you said, Sanders is not even a democrat and it's not hard to imagine a concerted effort to sideline him by the corporate wing of the Democratic party.
As the linked article describes, the assault on Corbyn by his own parties 'new Labor' members would lead me to believe the push back on sanders would be just as large as it was in the primaries. Billions of dollars are on the line and live stock to be slaughtered.

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#307365 - 07/11/18 06:46 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2097
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Sanders is a perfect example of the problems of the left. Sanders continues to call himself a 'socalist' even though he is not espousing government ownership of all means of production. Not doing that makes him a lousy socialist. I think that means that he is something called a 'democratic socialist'. Still, he is not a member of the Democratic party. The Dems can win EVERYTHING if they can convince everybody, from the left and center, who do not support the actions of the present Republican party, to vote Democratic. That is not going to happen when they can't even get their nomenclatures clear. So, again, if a person votes, disagree with most of what the Republican party is doing under the jackass, then they are, by definition, Democratic voters! If they can do that much they can win it ALL! Better yet, if you agree with the Republicans that greed should be in charge then vote Republican, otherwise you are a Democratic voter! Seems simple to me.

The Republicans, on the other hand, have melded. The Libertarians are now Republicans and supporters of the Jackass. The Evangelicals, now, are Republicans and supporters of the jackass. The conservatives that remain in the Republican party are now Republicans and supporters of the Jackass. They no longer discriminate between brands and are in lock step. I have no idea how long they can hold it together but, right now, they have melded, march in lockstep, and vote the party line as given to them by the Jackass.

As far as I can tell the Republican party is a party of one voice - that of the Jackass. The only thing truly missing is they are not yet raising their right arms, palms out whilst shouting the name of the Jackass.

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#307367 - 07/11/18 07:14 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Ummmm....
I don't know how supporting the government owning the means of production define socialism but I'd be happy to learn.
I thought it meant WORKERS owning the means of production?
Isn't this symantic sidelining of Sanders platform anyhow? Fretting over a platform that was legacy to New Dealist democrats from decades past? For me all sanders did was reintroduce that political philosophy to a generation who's parents turned away from with the election of Bill Clinton.

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#307368 - 07/11/18 08:16 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14195
Loc: Florida
so·cial·ism

noun
a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

The "community as a whole" can be interpreted as the STATE. But the state can and should regulate industry heavily, there's no need to actually assume ownership or "nationalize" banks and railroads and such.

Sanders' version of Social Democracy is working all over the world and could work equally well here. Don't be afraid of the "S" word. Be
very afraid of the "F" word....Fascism.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307369 - 07/11/18 08:50 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
That's one way to interpret it Gregor. I've heard it said it can be people having a larger say in how society is organized and wealth gets shared. Such as worker owned co-operatives.
Either way, it sure don't feel like what we got know.

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#307371 - 07/11/18 10:12 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
F fascism.

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#307375 - 07/12/18 02:29 AM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
I found the pie chart that absolutely nails Clinton's loss: it's so obvious.

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#307377 - 07/12/18 03:37 AM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
It's as good a reason as any seen offered here so far...

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#307379 - 07/12/18 04:03 AM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14195
Loc: Florida
We all know what happened. And we know why. Political parties are what they are. And what they are is not generally a good thing.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307382 - 07/12/18 06:20 AM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Do we? I've yet to see an honest critique of that garbage barge of a campaign by her adherents. The reason that's annoying is it feels like the same kind of enabling that we see happenning with the POTUS base.
I wouldn't mind if Clinton's minions remained obtuse to the horrible deficiencies of that campaign and become irrelevant and obsolete as dumb animals that have reached an evolutionary dead end, but no....
Onward they come, from the still smoking crater of the last election, with pie charts and corporate monies interfering in the grass roots efforts doing the heavy lifting of going door to door, getting stink eyes from jaded voters that used to be democrats but no longer.
You gunna get them back with a pie chart?
Right now I have an icy feeling in my gut that the quants in the leadership are banging together a new model for taking back the house and senate that will be every bit as asinine as the Clinton model for victory was.
I also understand that parties implode or reform. One wonders which model will be the democrats future? Could be to late but what the h&ll, you gotta try, right?


Edited by chunkstyle (07/12/18 06:32 AM)

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#307385 - 07/12/18 11:44 AM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
Serious question, chunk: after the primaries, are there any Democrats you are not going to vote for?

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#307387 - 07/12/18 01:58 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
On the local level we don't have many. To vote for. The democratic leadership is poor and incompetent with the leader mostly phoning it in and seldom doing the work.
We had a challenge at the town board seat that came within 7 votes of winning last year. Not bad considering were in rural trump country. A generation ago it we much different but so wasn't the employment picture and household incomes.
At the congressional level we had a crowded field of candidates. Most were ok. We had house parties for most of them. They spanned the gamut. They were all moderates to third way types. The third way won the primary but it was extremely close and came down to absentee ballots.
No, I won't vote for her. I doubt she's going to win. Doesn't know what time it is. Lousy goals for district. Making it all about beating republican incumbent. An incumbent who's talking right wing populism and it's working.
The democrat is from the professional class. Managerial and sounds like it. A human resource sounding voice and thinks both Sanders and populism is a bad thing. An Eisenhower republican were calling democrats these days.
Now Ocasio on the other hand....
That was fun to get behind and help. What does it say that the incumbent democrat Crowley went running to a GOP lobbying firm for help in the final weeks of his lame campaign? A lobbying firm that came out for Trump early in his own residential campaign.
I'm no longer voting because they have a D next to their name.

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#307388 - 07/12/18 04:20 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14195
Loc: Florida
No local Democrats to vote for here either. If Democrats want to win an election locally they run as Republicans. If local movers and shakers want to move and shake things they do it as Republicans...Democrats are not welcome at their parties, in their clubs, or their churches.
There is NO Democratic Party presence here in my county. I don't think I saw a single Clinton(or Sanders) sign or bumper sticker during the last election. It's pretty scary when you think about it. Republicans are armed and dangerous. Just itching to "stand their ground".

Hoping for a "civil war"

Actively burning metaphorical crosses.

Praising Trump and Jesus. In that order.

Pardon me if I'm not terribly receptive to Democratic infighting right now. Everybody with an ounce of decency in their body needs to help depose the current regime. Depose them with socialists. Depose them with Liberals, Centrists, and corporatists. Depose them with "Republican Light" candidates, Never-Trumpers, DINO's, RINO's or whatever it takes!

"Send lawyers, guns, and money! Dad, get me outa here" Warren Zevon
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307392 - 07/12/18 04:59 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Yeah, I'm not to keen on running the same play that's been running up points in the 'lost' column. Running the same old play with the same management and expecting different results is what I'm most afraid of and looks to be the most likely for the hide bound democratic leadership. That's one good argument for looking at what's been working where and why. Another argument could be made for trying to understand what hasn't been working (to quote Sanders announcement to run speech). I got me some real reservations about leadership that don't truck with any critique.
IMO, that's what's allowed the rot to set in with the transformation of the democratic party. But hey, maybe I'm all wrong. Maybe this time they are getting it and will make the adjustments and realize where they are going wrong and adapt......
I'm not holding my breath with these management types and neither should you. Better to take Sanders advice: Organize, get involved. We got a long row to hoe and the centrist aren't likely to be getting their hands dirty or smelling their sweat to get the work done.
'The business as usual is no longer working..."


Edited by chunkstyle (07/12/18 05:05 PM)

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#307393 - 07/12/18 05:03 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Yeah Gregor,
We got the big mouths up here too. What do you expect. They have a sh!t talkers sh!t talker as president now. They got the dance floor and feel good about letting everyone know. Throwing lots of elbow.

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#307394 - 07/12/18 05:39 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965

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#307411 - 07/13/18 06:44 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14195
Loc: Florida
Quote:
It’s about money.


You say this like it's a new thing...? When in the entire history of man has politics been about anything but money?
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307414 - 07/13/18 08:04 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
No one said its a new thing. Just a reminder of how politics is a battle of resources. The rich are winning it in spades. Clinton pitched in as much as anyone. The photo demonstrates the lack of day light between these people on that issue.
Always good to remind ourselves of that.

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#307433 - 07/14/18 05:01 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
On the local level we don't have many. ....
I'm no longer voting because they have a D next to their name.
See, you are the problem, chunk! Greger is correct. Yes, I think that we need to change the party, but if, in the general election, you are not voting for the Democratic candidate, you are part of the problem.

As I pointed out earlier (a point not refuted), neither leftists nor centrists can win by themselves. It just can't happen. Kvetch all you want to, it won't change that reality. Yes, Connor Lamb, Joe Manchin and Doug Jones are not my idea of "good" Democratic candidates, but they're Democrats. They may not go along all of the time, but certainly more than any Republican. We need as many seats as we can get, wherever we can get them. We need enough seats to take control. Then we can control the agenda. Then we can take the party/country back from the right. Until we do that, is all academic.

Leftists can win many places, but not everywhere. Until they do, you need to vote "D" every time. Even if the candidate is not ideal. Republicans do that. Trump is the result.

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#307434 - 07/14/18 05:13 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
Charts (not pie), from Pew. And a good discussion of the "factions" of the Democratic party from Wikipedia.

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#307438 - 07/14/18 09:56 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7885
Loc: North San Diego County
Some people would rather Fascists win than mainstream Democrats, because they think the inevitable disaster of a Fascist America will swing the other way and deliver a Socialist America. That won't really work if the Fascists essentially make it illegal to vote for anyone but them. Republicans are doing their best to make that so.

It's predicated on a system where Parties respect laws and normal order. Problem is, that only the Democratic Party does. Republicans have gone to the dark side in their quest for power, and have strapped the pendulum of American politics to their side of the clock. It's been a gradual progression of Gingrich, Hasturd, McConnell. Each with their progressively more criminal behaviors. It's the huge communist conspiracy that the right has feared for the last 60 years. The Manchurian candidate is in the White House, the Supreme Court is captured by a criminal act, and all the voter suppression and gerrymandering has fixed the results of elections.

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#307440 - 07/15/18 01:07 AM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Some people would rather Fascists win than mainstream Democrats, because they think the inevitable disaster of a Fascist America will swing the other way and deliver a Socialist America. That won't really work if the Fascists essentially make it illegal to vote for anyone but them. Republicans are doing their best to make that so.

It's predicated on a system where Parties respect laws and normal order. Problem is, that only the Democratic Party does. Republicans have gone to the dark side in their quest for power, and have strapped the pendulum of American politics to their side of the clock. It's been a gradual progression of Gingrich, Hasturd, McConnell. Each with their progressively more criminal behaviors. It's the huge communist conspiracy that the right has feared for the last 60 years. The Manchurian candidate is in the White House, the Supreme Court is captured by a criminal act, and all the voter [url=supprehttps://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/06/jeremy-corbyn-attacks-media-labour-election-prime-ministerssion][url=supprehttps://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/06/jeremy-corbyn-attacks-media-labour-election-prime-ministerssion][url=supprehttps://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/06/jeremy-corbyn-attacks-media-labour-election-prime-ministerssion]supprehttps://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/06/jeremy-corbyn-attacks-media-labour-election-prime-ministerssion[/url][/url][/url] and gerrymandering has fixed the results of elections.


Have you ever considered not enabling this march towards fascism by not voting for neoliberal republicans that have a D next to their name, PIA?
No?
Well by all means, keep rowing to the right. The middle must be over there some where.

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#307445 - 07/15/18 04:22 AM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
On the local level we don't have many. ....
I'm no longer voting because they have a D next to their name.
See, you are the problem, chunk! Greger is correct. Yes, I think that we need to change the party, but if, in the general election, you are not voting for the Democratic candidate, you are part of the problem.

As I pointed out earlier (a point not refuted), neither leftists nor centrists can win by themselves. It just can't happen. Kvetch all you want to, it won't change that reality. Yes, Connor Lamb, Joe Manchin and Doug Jones are not my idea of "good" Democratic candidates, but they're Democrats. They may not go along all of the time, but certainly more than any Republican. We need as many seats as we can get, wherever we can get them. We need enough seats to take control. Then we can control the agenda. Then we can take the party/country back from the right. Until we do that, is all academic.

Leftists can win many places, but not everywhere. Until they do, you need to vote "D" every time. Even if the candidate is not ideal. Republicans do that. Trump is the result.


Well,...that about encapsulates the third way strategy of winning elections for the last 30 years. Vote for democrats (whatever that means these days) cuz those republicans are sure scary.
Your a big fan of empiracle evidence NWP. How's that 'lesser of two evils' worked out? How has that translated into electoral victories? Has it been a success? If not, why not? Otherwise, your advocating the same status quo that has lead to historic defeats and might lend credence to the idea that your the problem NWP.
Just sayin.
Punching left while going right and whistling to the bank.

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#307453 - 07/15/18 08:12 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2097
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
It dawns on me that this talk of Left, Middle, Right may not be valid. Perhaps the political landscape is considerably more complex than that. I do, however, firmly believe that we really have two sides; the side of the Jackass, and the side that does not side with the Jackass. All the rest is actually not real pertinent.

The jackass is going to run on his record and its not a bad record to run on! Jobs are back, wages are almost going up, and he is responsible for it ALL! (we know that is simply not true but the optics tend to belay that one). Things are better, the economy is humming, everything is dandy and if we want that to continue the only choice is to vote for the jackass.

The other side has to figure out how to fight back. So far there have been individual candidates but the Democratic party doesn't seem, so far, to have come to the party. I consider the infighting of the opposition a complete waste of time and an ignoring of the problems we are either facing, or will face, due to the actions of the other side. The Dems have to sharpen their spears and do a little educating, amongst other things. We all gotta remember, we want a better country, we are against hate, racism, rape, pillaging, baloney. I think we get into trouble when we start talking about what a better country is but this is nit picking. We just gotta stop it and get on with fixing an obvious problem. If we are for public schools then we should support public schools. If we are for better government then we should also want a new Hoover commission to actually study our government and determine what is working what is not. We have been fighting a war in Afghanistan going on almost 19 years. We have spent more than two (2) trillion dollars which could have fixed ALL of our infrastructure and nobody even bothers to talk about that one. There are a lot of these 'little' things that nobody talks about. I also suspect most are low hanging fruit and that we are simply being out shouted by the other side. Hopefully somebody is going to figure it out. Hopefully the Dems will do better. My wife was doing cold calls locally and noticed there were no Hillary signs in the entire town. She asked for a sign to put up and was told the price would be 25.00 The Dems now have a LOT of Hillary signs and a loss due, at least in part, to that kind of lunacy.

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#307461 - 07/15/18 10:28 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14195
Loc: Florida

I got yer pie chart right here.

_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307464 - 07/15/18 11:37 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: Greger]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3821
Loc: Eugene, OR
Never going to happen Greger. That chart obligates those currently outside the system participate. That means education, family patterns, and by nature.... curiosity.

Can that be teached or imposed? I think not. Democracy (or even representative democracy as we now supposedly have), does indeed have a requirement of an informed electorate.

Hate to say it... but the founders wanted an elite body (educated and with land holding assets) to create and formate new laws. They did not want the “rabble” of scum that could arise from “pure democracy” to create such a body.

Or additionally in our case now to be an “informed” lobbyist.

.............Good times indeed.
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#307472 - 07/16/18 02:40 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
It can and has been done. Supporting and campaigning on positions that have broad popular support is one way that hasn't been tried in a long time by the current leadership.:

Legalize weed
Medicare for all
Negotiate prescription drug pricing
Campaign finance reform
Criminal justice reform
Take the bankers and hedge fund managers to the wood shed and re-impose Glass-Steagel.
Raise the minimum wage.
Allow the right of first refusal to purchase and offer a financing mechanism for employees to buy their companies looking to be sold.

These are just a few I can think of that get the blood pumping.
Then I remember, Brent and Jesse from Non Partisan Campaign Finance,Lobby & Consultancy Co. really have their eyes on beach front property in the Vineyard this year. Never mind.

Remind me what the party has done to address issues for the common working family in the last thirty years that wasn't from some think tank.


Edited by chunkstyle (07/16/18 02:42 PM)

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#307474 - 07/16/18 03:35 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16203
chunk,I think you quoted the Hillary Clinton platform....


Edited by NW Ponderer (07/16/18 03:38 PM)

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#307475 - 07/16/18 04:07 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
She lost me at $12/hr on the campaign trail

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#307476 - 07/16/18 04:39 PM Re: Pie Chart Fight [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
"We have been trying, with some success, to not only open the doors of the Democratic Party to working people and young people, but change the party’s rules as well. In the 2016 Democratic presidential primary, you had superdelegates exerting an enormous amount of power. If my memory is correct, Hillary Clinton had five hundred superdelegate votes before the first real vote was cast in Iowa."

A good recent interview with Sanders where low voter turnout is discussed:

Caution, socialism ahead. Be careful!........

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