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#306170 - 03/29/18 12:55 AM Do they realize what they're doing?
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16303
I believe, perhaps naively, that most politicians, even Republicans, generally believe in the rule of law, the Democratic process, and what is best for the country. I do not believe, however, that that sentiment prevails among Republican leadership, and certainly not in the administration.

There are a number of trends that have disabused me of that quaint notion, and that have certainly come to the fore since Trump came on the scene. After the 2010 census the efforts of gerrymandering permanent control contrary to the wishes of voters was extreme. Over the last decade the voter ID laws were designed to suppress minority votes. McConnell's extreme efforts to thwart every Obama initiative despite popularity and the demonstrated issues and then the packing of the judicial branch with unqualified ideologues, culminating with the refusal to seat Merrick Garland. Now we have the spectical of the Trump administration, and their anti-democratic across are, literally, too many to catalogue.

I have a hard time believing that they don't know just how corrosive these processes have been to those very values- democracy, the rule of law, and preservation of the nation.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#306171 - 03/29/18 01:36 AM Re: Do they realize what they're doing? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13338
Loc: Whittier, California
Nope, no belief in rule of law.
That ship sailed a while ago.
I tried to believe, I wanted to believe, I fought with myself and with others in my effort to STILL believe.

At this point I am counting down the days to our manufactured attack and plans for war, and the Enabling Act which shall crown Donald Trump as fuehrer, or as they say over here, "Unitary Executive".
Strict measures shall be imposed due to "national emergency" and we will be informed that there will be crackdowns on anyone who takes positions in opposition to such measures.

"The power of the President shall not be questioned."

We heard that shortly after he took office.
Did you doubt it for even a moment?

The right wing trifecta is prepared to be the rubber stamp that they were destined to be, and on the occasions where they are something more, it will simply be a reverse process described years ago by Grover Norquist, when he said that "all we need is a man who can hold a pen".

In the end, it doesn't matter if Congress rubber stamps decrees from Herr Trump or if Trump signs pre-baked bills from the Hill, one hand washes the other, and all fingers are in all pies, with one finger firmly implanted somewhere else.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#306172 - 03/29/18 01:37 AM Re: Do they realize what they're doing? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13338
Loc: Whittier, California
Where is your finger?
I know where mine is. wink

(There's a famous Johnny Cash poster which I probably shouldn't link to but if you know of it, just mentioning it should be enough laugh )
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#306176 - 03/29/18 02:08 PM Re: Do they realize what they're doing? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 362
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
It is not that they do not know, it is that they do not care.
_________________________
Vote 2020.

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#306177 - 03/29/18 03:07 PM Re: Do they realize what they're doing? [Re: Ujest Shurly]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16303
Originally Posted By: Ujest Shurly
It is not that they do not know, it is that they do not care.
Sadly, this is the conclusion that I have reached myself. Some of it is deliberate blindness, I think. There is a desire - expressed openly since at least Newt Gingrich and Karl Rove's ascendancy - for power over principle or duty to country. It's unseemly, but undeniable. McConnell's unprincipled actions and Trump's election are just the greatest manifestations of the disease.

I love my country. I love the principles upon which it is founded. I love democracy as a form of government - the greatest expression of rule "by the people" known in the world, however it is engineered. I think the Constitution, while flawed, is the best "proof of concept" for balancing individual freedom and group accountability. I hate to see all of that threatened.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#306187 - 03/30/18 06:15 PM Re: Do they realize what they're doing? [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2153
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I suspect that what its all about is WINNING! The job is simply ignored in favor of WINNING! I also think that both parties are involved with WINNING! The difference, as far as I can tell is that the Dems seem to be marginally more honest than the Republicans who have abandoned all pretenses of just doing their jobs so they can WIN!

I wonder if this has something to do with winning the war in Afghanistan for 18 years with nothing to show for it except the loss of lives and treasure and it continues unabated. This too, I think, is all about WINNING! The real problem is that winning is not really defined so winning is actually about beating down the other side and little else. Same with politics?

So, these days, winning is the goal. Its not defined, nobody knows what it means, and everybody knows its the only thing that's important.

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#306193 - 03/30/18 07:31 PM Re: Do they realize what they're doing? [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7997
Loc: North San Diego County
Acute Football Toxicity: The tendency to see football as a metaphor for all human activities.

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#307104 - 06/26/18 02:01 PM Re: Do they realize what they're doing? [Re: jgw]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8905
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: jgw
I suspect that what its all about is WINNING!

... The real problem is that winning is not really defined so winning is actually about beating down the other side and little else. Same with politics?

So, these days, winning is the goal. Its not defined, nobody knows what it means, and everybody knows its the only thing that's important.

I've been trying to find some cracks where the light can shine through on a rightie blog for a long time. None have been found. Recently, I asked a couple of questions that I thought might not be too loaded to allow for at least a bit of discussion; one was, "is it unavoidable that every issue must have a winner and a loser?" Another was simply, "can we find some common ground, even on a small thing?"

There was no response to the common ground question. None. I'm certain it was regarded as a trick question. It is a fact that they do not want any common ground.

There was one response to the win/lose question, and that was to say "everything runs on winners and losers, always has and always will". I followed with the question, "is causing the other side to lose the same as winning?" It was apparently recognized as another trick question, and there was no response. Except to castigate me for being condescending....

I don't see any opportunity for problem solving in this current game of winners and losers, in that interacting with the players in control is like arguing with three year olds. Winning is all that matters and there are no rules. Even the meanings of words are not fixed. And the ability to think and consider and respect and compromise is not developed in them.

What conflict resolution techniques work with three year olds (especially when the adults are not in charge)?



Edited by logtroll (06/26/18 03:46 PM)
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#307105 - 06/26/18 06:57 PM Re: Do they realize what they're doing? [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2153
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
In a perfect world we have a system that really works. It goes something like:

We have 2 sides to every problem. What happens is that the two sides sit down and look for common ground. I think it probably starts with something like; "we agree that (something) is wrong or needs fixing" (say, for instance, rape and what can we all agree needs to be done). Once the problem is defined then its time to decide what both sides can agree on. It may be nothing or it might be something. If its nothing then both sides agree that neither can agree about the fix/problem and they move on. If they can agree then that is the legislation, ie. points where both sides agree on how to deal with the problem.

What makes the system great is that the system has built in safeguards about going too far. Neither sides wins, but the product of the effort gives is a solution which, at the very least, both sides agree will mitigate the problem at worst or actually fixing the problem. That is, in a nutshell, how the system is supposed to work. In such a system there is really only one instance that calls for general agreement - going to war. All the rest involves debate and fact checking the other side each step of the way.

Now, however, winning has become the standard, on either side. Sitting down, defining a given problem, and then negotiating a solution both sides can live with is no longer an option. Now one side wins and the other loses and the result is that the very thought of going too far is tossed out the window and the nation, basically, gets to suffer. When the voters switch their votes, so the losing side gets in, then the losing side gets to 'win' and the nation continues to suffer.

We are, in other words, running the nation like a horse race or a football game. The problem is that we, the 'fans' get screwed no matter who wins because, in the current system, "going too far" becomes the norm.

Our system has never worked perfectly but it has actually worked. One of the pillars of the system was that both sides respected and listened to the other side without either side being terribly concerned with 'winning" (there are actually procedural rules that support this - if followed). Our system also used have other systems in place that tended to help the whole. "Earmarks", for instance. These were little expenditures that the elected class got to do for their own districts, they never really amounted to much, but were important as the elected class was expected to "bring home the bacon" to keep their jobs. To "bring home the bacon" meant that you had to get along with the other elected so that you could get approval of your 'earmark'. In our efforts to clean up the swamp, change things, and 'win' we, the electorate AND our elected class, have well and truly screwed things up.

I have no idea if we can ever fix that WE have wrought. We have, in other words, the "my way or the highway" system and its not working!




Edited by jgw (06/26/18 06:59 PM)

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#307110 - 06/27/18 02:39 AM Re: Do they realize what they're doing? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1076
It's been a long sustained class war. They very much know what they are doing and are reaping the benefits.

THEY!
DON'T!
WANT!
DEMOCRACY!

They are engaged in a revolutionary act of political force and economic violence to bring down democracy, sustained by racism and neoliberalism.



Hiding in plain sight







Edited by chunkstyle (06/27/18 02:40 AM)

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