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#307178 - 06/30/18 03:57 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Online   content
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 891
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Centrist third way democratic leadership has instituted the policies and direction of the party since Bill Clinton's administration and has lead to ruinous results.

I don't know if I'd call it ruinous. Marijuana is almost legal in the US. Gay folks are able to marry their partners. We nearly had a workable insurance program and if the states had been compelled to expand Medicaid then there would really have been an effective national insurance program that covered everybody. We have avoided additional wars since W. decided it would be fun to be a Wartime President. Gasoline is cheap. Unemployment in low single digits.
There was still much to be done but Democrats were working on it.
We could have had a minimum wage increase, maybe even free college tuition and an easing up on student loans. We were on a roll, baby!
Meaningful immigration reform, more environmental regulation, a turn to renewables over fossil fuels and battling global warming...

Quote:
Are you suggesting we unify under the current status quo


You go to war with the army you have...not the army you wish you had.
But no. I'm not suggesting anything. It's over. The fascists won.


Well, there's a lot here to refute and I would wonder why it even needs to be done but here goes....
Weed legalization has been building st the state level where you're as likely to find a coalition of progressive Dems, libertarians, socialist and greed head republicans looking to cash in on an emerging market. A market, by the way, that ironically discriminates against minorities as it excludes those convicted of drug offenses from participating.
Progressives and socialists wanted Medicare for all (single payer) at the get go. Obama and the corporate centrist killed that off for the benefit of the insurance industry. Means testing for everyone and a Byzantine market place to frolic in...YAY!!!
Centrist did not join the call for a minimum wage increase. What would their donors say?!
No more wars?!!! Syria, Libya, sidelining the Arab spring in Egypt. Drone strikes, Yemen. Militarizing the Russian borders with armored cavalry and naval ships.
Free college tuition was pushed by Sanders campaign. Derided as promising rainbows and unicorns by centrist Dems.
I did appreciate Obama's efforts for implementing renewable energy. Progressive left wants to do better. Calling for a massive investment in renewable energy and the jobs that it will require.

"You go to war with the army you have...not the army you wish you had"

Rilly? Now your just trolling by paraphrasing Rumsfeld.

You may wish to pack it in and declare surrender, I think the sanders plan offers possibilities.

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#307181 - 06/30/18 03:40 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14040
Loc: Florida
Oh, I LOVED the Sanders plan.

I was okay with the Clinton plan too.

But what we have is the Trump Plan. Sanders and Clinton(and me and you) will be long dead and gone before we get out of this mess. Assuming there is actually a way out.

Quote:
You may wish to pack it in and declare surrender

Oh, I have. The United States as we have known it is dead. It's over pal. Democrats will be forced farther to the right to maintain even a semblance of relevancy.



Edited by Greger (06/30/18 03:57 PM)
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307183 - 06/30/18 08:05 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7695
Loc: North San Diego County
Really? Give up already? We haven't even eaten any rich people yet! No senators have been knifed yet on the Senate steps! (Julius Caesar pun intended.)

America has a rich tradition of extra-legal action when some group or another is pushed too far. We have a HUGE number of guns and not every gun owner is a conservative.

Evangelicals can't stuff the genie back in the bottle: All the things they want require people to suddenly believe in things they don't, and that's not going to happen. Their goals were always unrealistic.

The rich have their tax cut, but that and everything else they do to make income disparity worse, just turn America into a Third World shithole country where you get TB just from getting out of your limo to go in the opera house and the streets are filled with armed robbers.

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#307186 - 06/30/18 10:27 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14040
Loc: Florida
Quote:
turn America into a Third World shithole country where you get TB just from getting out of your limo to go in the opera house and the streets are filled with armed robbers.


I'm thinking it might get worse than that.

Think mid-thirties depression era with no FDR in sight.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307187 - 06/30/18 11:52 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14040
Loc: Florida
Quote:
All the things they want require people to suddenly believe in things they don't, and that's not going to happen. Their goals were always unrealistic.


That's what I'm saying about Progressives.


I'm not saying they're wrong...I'm just saying there's no way to get from where we are to where they want to be.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307198 - 07/01/18 05:15 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: Greger]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3818
Loc: Eugene, OR
This idea is what I, and possibly Greger, have been trying to express. It is from the NYTimes--the “Failing NYTimes” as our esteemed Leader so fondly refers to.

I hope the link opens.

I am a subscriber.. being the shameless “liberal” I am.

Sail la Vee:

Quote:
is threatening to shatter the already fragile architecture of the Democratic Party, as an activist rebellion on the left and a lurch to the right in Washington propels the party toward a moment of extraordinary conflict and forced reinvention.

For Democrats, the transformation could prove as consequential as President Trump’s consolidation of power in his own party and the conservative movement’s tightening grip on the federal government.

“The Trump presidency has changed the dynamics in our party,” said Richard J. Durbin of Illinois, the second-ranking Democrat in the Senate, acknowledging that he could not call recall a similar grass-roots uprising since he was elected to Congress in 1982.


Link
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#307199 - 07/01/18 01:14 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Online   content
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 891
I guess it may come as a shock to some and a logical historical conclusion to others over our current political realities. Any system or organization that demands strict loyalty to that system and is immune to critique is gunna rot from the inside out.
There's many ways to look at the current situation. The New York Times would not be one of them. They wouldn't see the upset primary election of Cortez coming if you slapped it up on the side of a bus and ran it thru Manhattan.
That last presidential can and has been interpreted a million ways by now. One thing remains obvious to those left of center is the all to familiar centrists response. Laying blame for everything and everyone around who may not have been in lock step with the candidate, their platform or parties conduct during the primary.
A lot of howling and nashing of teeth at Russians, Sanders supporters, Comey, etc...
To bring up chosen party direction (neoliberal policies under Clinton's, identity politics) the flawed preselecting of a vastly unpopular candidate (not just fox viewers by the way), an ambiguous campaign message (I'm with Her!, America is already Great!) the complete lack of understanding to recognize the anger and frustration brewing for decades now and pulling to the right by a facist element capitolizing on that anger and a left wing being constantly told to sit down and shut up.
Boomer centrist turned their backs on organized labor, economic justice and the new deal as soon as they became the dominant force in politics. That alone is worthy of exploration. What's striking is their inability to grasp the reality that those decisions have brought about.
I could go on but let's talk about something nice like Russia meddling or the Mueller investigation.



Edited by chunkstyle (07/01/18 03:27 PM)

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#307204 - 07/01/18 05:48 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16063
Chunk, my friend, you forget we're on the same side. It's not an "either/or thing," it is a "yes/and" thing. Neither the "centrist" Democrats nor the "left wing" can win on their own. That's reality. The Democratic coalition is bigger than both, by a large margin. All of the complaints of both wings can still be true. Yes, the party leadership needs to change. Yes, the party is stultifying, and right of the majority of members. Yes, the energy is on the left of the party. But, we also need to bring voters in from the center - which means rural interests have to be balanced with urban ones. We need to have a plan that will get a majority of votes in all of the States. I think there are a number of solutions that would be popular and can be sold in a number of markets. Many of the best are on the left side of the margin, but they have to be sold to the center and right as well.

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#307205 - 07/01/18 06:38 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2037
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Amazing! Somehow the Democratic party is now a fragile group of people at war with one another. The world, as we know it, is ended and there is little anybody can do about it. Sorry, not amazing, just flat out strange.

Those who stand for the existing, aged, incompetent rulers of the Democratic party do, however, amaze me. On their watch, the current group stood above it all whilst the Right took over 80% of state legislatures. This is a simple fact, it happened, and those who claim the mantle of running the Democratic party also get the mantle of incompetence. I think its a mental state. Hillary set the bar when, over at least a 40 year period, she never fought back as it would not be seemly to fight back against obviously insane accusations. Our congress alone, in the last couple of years spent huge amounts trying to nail her for something. They didn't, but at the same time, they painted her for the voters and she lost because she had been well and truly demonized. The same thing is now happening to Pelosi who has been kinda the second target and now has risen to #1 and is now who gets the treatment next.

Anyway, I, for one, do not feel that the Dems have been fighting back with any real will. Whilst not fighting back they have also seemed to have blown through piles of money for little or no victory. The right is all about 'winning'. That's it, nothing more and nothing less. The left, at the same time has been incredibly civilized about it all. They stand above the mud and accusations and all the rest of it. The result is what we have, right now. The left will lose the supreme court and there is a growing belief that, in spite of the ongoing offense of the right against what we all, supposedly, know to be right and true, just might not overcome in 2018. There comes a point when the left should wake up and smell the roses! Whatever they have been doing it has not helped them win elections.

I am, incidentally, not completely alone in this one. The late night comedians are starting to recognize what I have been say, some more than others - I hope its going to help. I firmly believe that there are more 'us' than 'them' and we are on the side of right. Our problem continues to be the same, our side cannot be counted on to vote, our leaders refuse to actually fight back with any vigor and, seemingly, accept personal demonization. On the other side THEY ALL VOTE, attack one and there is an immediate response. Its pretty evident, one side understands the system and the other side, well, you know.

Then there is the girl who won in an 'upset'. This one makes no sense. She was a woman who has been running, we are told, for 3 solid years. They say that she has rang every doorbell and knocked on every door, not once, not twice, but three times. She took the time to explain what, exactly, she believes and what she would like to accomplish. From what I can tell she is a bright, educated, well spoken woman who worked her ass off against a man who had been in congress for 20 years, obviously more interested in his own success than his own constituency, rang no doorbells, didn't live in the district, and was (surprise!) above it all. She didn't upset anything, she won a race, fair and square because she did the work!

Then there is all the talk about far left and centrist. Another one I do not understand. I firmly believe, for instance, that a for profit healthcare system makes no sense. This is not a philosophic belief but based on the simple fact that the rest of the world has determined that the way to go is with a healthcare system not based on profit. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. In the rest of the world they pay, on average, something like 25% of what we pay. This seems to be sane and the way to go. I don't consider this to be far left so much as sane. The same applies to some of those other 'far left' ideas as well.

Remember - the difference between right and left is, basically, that the left believes that we need regulation to succeed and the right believes regulation is an affront against freedom. I think one of the most telling things about this has to do with the economy. The jackass is building up to what I believe is going to be one of the very worst of financial downturns. He has brought us close to bankruptcy with the trillion dollar debt, destroyed medicare and medicaid making sure that healthcare will become, yet again, the major source of personal bankruptcy, etc. This one boggles. There has not been a single Republican administration that has not ended with a financial downturn since before 1929! When they run, however, I cannot remember a single time when the left pointed out the responsibility of the right. When thousands were losing jobs, in 2008, it was just a given. If the left was awake they would have reported it every freaking day!

Just saying...........

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#307207 - 07/01/18 07:20 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7695
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
If the left was awake they would have reported it every freaking day!

You are equating "the left" with "the press". I wish it was true but it's not. The press feels an obligation to "fairness" which means a balance of stories that report things in a neutral manner. So when the President lies blatantly, they report the new lie without calling it a lie. When Nazis march, they report on the positive aspects of White Pride instead of calling them murderers.

They seem to think they have to be fair, when actually they have an obligation to report the truth. That won't be "balanced" if one side is always doing evil things.

As for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: We (America) need 10000 more like her. People who DESERVE to be Representatives, Senators, Governors, and President. She ran a campaign the old-fashioned way, ringing doorbells and talking to the people about what matters to them.

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