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#307318 - 07/09/18 03:52 PM Being Uncivil to Barbarians
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16700
I admit I am of two minds over this one. On the one hand, I am a strong proponent of civility, even to one's adversaries, as I think that progress is seldom made when people's backs are up. On the other hand, we're facing down totalitarians here, who don't understand the first thing about civility and are led by the [censored]-in-chief, the most boorish occupant of the White House, ever. They make excuses, insult freely, lie incessantly, and are supporting the worst administration ever, who do not have the interests of the nation at heart. I think people are genuinely of the mind that Nazis got a pass because the German populace was too polite.

I find it jarring to have the likes of Sarah Sanders, Steven Miller, and Kellyanne Conway complaining that people are being impolite to them. Pot/Kettle? Talk about dishing it out and not being able to take it! Is it really impolite to take out a mirror and show a miscreant how ugly they truly are? Or, is it a public service? I wonder how much that teacher confronting Pruitt influenced his decision to resign. That was certainly a public service, and she was certainly civil about it. There are ways to do it, and that certainly set the standard.

The protests about family separations can't be ugly enough, in my book. That is not only an un-American process, it is a violation of basic standards of humanity, and probably just plain illegal. Failing to pull out the stops to prevent it would be acquiescence to monstrosity.

The danger, of course, is setting the bar as low as the administration. What are the permanent effects of this level of discourse. I am in favor of protests; organized and massive. But there will be repercussions, beyond calls to the police and ill-informed boycotts. We already know how ugly the President's supporters can get - with torchlight parades and violence. I'm just afraid the Genie is getting out.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#307328 - 07/09/18 09:07 PM Re: Being Uncivil to Barbarians [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2408
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I keep harping on this one. These people lie, they cheat, they are able to change fiction to fact and they get away with it! The media is, currently, pointing this out but not with any real enthusiasm. Everytime they start up I just turn it off because I know that the 'fair' media is going to allow them to tell their lies, repeat their lies, and tell them again before they are even vaguely called on even the really obvious stuff.

That must be a civil way to just turn them off. How about giving every interviewer a switch. When the lies start just turn them off and a little sign comes up that what followed was a damned lie and exposure is too expensive to waste on such. This would stop the lies and also any argument. Its disgusting when they are allowed to fight against anybody that might suggest that a blatant lie is just that. Its really disgusting when they are allowed to speak over the voice of the interviewer pointing out why a lie is a lie. Just turn them off!

"alternate facts' - my ass...............


Edited by jgw (07/09/18 09:07 PM)

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#307344 - 07/10/18 03:13 PM Re: Being Uncivil to Barbarians [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16700
My son and I had a discussion over this: Is it okay to punch a Nazi? His response: Yes. He's A NAZI! Everything he espouses is violent and antithetical to a free society. Now, you can't just punch anyone you disagree with, but an actual Nazi? Go for it.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#307345 - 07/10/18 03:16 PM Re: Being Uncivil to Barbarians [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16700
I've often wondered what would happen if the White House press corps simply refused to report the lies. Go on strike. Don't quote anyone who is lying. "The White House did not provide an answer."
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#307349 - 07/10/18 05:18 PM Re: Being Uncivil to Barbarians [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6686
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I think there are multiple issues in communications with political figures at question.

The obvious example is everyone in politics (it would be a hurricane of fresh air if anyone actually was completely honest and truthful) spins the facts to provide the most favorable image of their position. So is spin for presentation a lie? What if it becomes so twisted as to be unrecognizable?

Fact X. If I deny fact X, that is an obvious lie. So one question is, should anyone report the "fact" the WH spokespersons have lied?

Many if not all Trump surrogates have said at one tine or another Mr Trump is typically hyperbolic in messaging. Is it a lie for them not to recognize the pathological nature of Mr Trump mental health, i.e. he is a narcissist? Typically these folks defend Mr Trump's statements as being hyperbolic. They are in denial of any mental health issue or they are too insensitive or ignorant of it.

Had I been an interviewer, I would have long ago had a short career, as I would have provided the blatant answer which was not voiced by the interviewee, he provided no answer for the question or he condoned all manner of bad choices, poor judgments, bigotry, etc, by tacit approval or by implication.

I am not sure reporting lies or misrepresentations has any utility. For instance Trump supporters don't care, and we could say this about any partisan supporters of any political party. Perhaps one approach would be to present the facts and report the denial. I suspect emphasizing the facts first has greater impact than reporting the lies first (I think someone else has said this).

However, overall, there is a fundamental underlying problem ... ignorance of the America voter population.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#307350 - 07/10/18 06:18 PM Re: Being Uncivil to Barbarians [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2408
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Well, how about this. When ANY politician gives a speech, talk, or interview. Whilst showing one of these there is a block on the bottom of the video/picture/whatever that says "True" or "False". Possible disclaimer below giving a site that explains said True/False labels. This could work with all such which are not live broadcasts.

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#307353 - 07/10/18 06:59 PM Re: Being Uncivil to Barbarians [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14761
Loc: Florida
The world doesn't come with handy labels like that. Folks gotta have sense enough not to be taken in by con artists.

Quote:
This could work with all such which are not live broadcasts.


Yeah but...opinions are formed in the live sales pitch.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307358 - 07/10/18 09:32 PM Re: Being Uncivil to Barbarians [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8350
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Folks gotta have sense enough not to be taken in by con artists.


But in many cases, they don't. Con men tend to be very good at what they do.

As for actual Nazis: Somebody should chain them to some concrete blocks and drop them off the end of a pier. They gave up any claim to being human beings back in 1944. They have not done anything since to convince me the human race would not be improved by removing them.

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#307363 - 07/11/18 03:31 PM Re: Being Uncivil to Barbarians [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13649
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all

As for actual Nazis: Somebody should chain them to some concrete blocks and drop them off the end of a pier. They gave up any claim to being human beings back in 1944. They have not done anything since to convince me the human race would not be improved by removing them.


Karl Popper - The Paradox of Tolerance
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#307370 - 07/11/18 10:08 PM Re: Being Uncivil to Barbarians [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16700
I have, personally, suffered from this paradox. The one thing I cannot tolerate is intolerance.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
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