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#307580 - 07/21/18 03:55 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13294
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
The term "Socialist" is as toxic, and hated, and demonized as "Hillary"

Hillary may be toxic, hated, and demonized but she got 3 million more votes than Trump.
If politics was a fair game Bernie would have beaten her in the primaries and likely Trump in the general.

Almost every major country has embraced Social Democracy in one way or another.

And Jeffery, the "New Deal Democrats" were Democratic Socialists

Like almost everything else Republicans are on the wrong side of history on this.


Yes, they were, I GRANT YOU EVERYTHING but in the case of POTUS elections, tags are tags, ammo is ammo and marketing is everything.

Don't drive with the parking brake on.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#307581 - 07/21/18 05:00 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7923
Loc: North San Diego County
I think "da yutes" don't vote enough to make much of a difference. It's the middle-aged and seniors you need to appeal to. Besides Social Security and Medicare, the big issue will be the Republicans cozying up to the Russians. Anybody middle-aged or older remembers the USSR, communism, dictators, "We will bury you!", etc.

Kind of strange for Democrats to be yelling: "Commie" but REALLY strange for Republicans to be going there. There's got to be a lot of stolid Mid-Western Republicans who still love apple pie and freedom and hate the damned Rooskies. Free gift for Democrats: Use it!

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#307584 - 07/21/18 04:50 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 973
Advertising is about creating demand. Clearly there was something wrong with Clinton's centrist message Jeff. People have grown tired of it. I think the voters have a sense that it's schilling for corporations and doesn't have their interests. If you have any doubts of what a 'Third Way' Democrat is about just do some light research on what the 'Third Way' think tank is all about and, more importantly, where it gets it's financial backing. Put simply, it's a corporate funded think tank much like the rest of em. Neoliberal to it's core. Are you happy to be referred to as a 'consumer' by your congressional representative? I'm not.
Sanders seems to be maintaining his popularity in spite of everyone knowing he's a democratic socialist. The fact that the corporate leadership of the democratic party undermined his primary campaign, his platform polled higher than Clinton's with republican voters. Very much higher among the Yutes. Again, Clinton, not so much.
You want Yutes to show up? Give em something to show up for. You want to increase voter turnout? Make it easier to vote. Funny how liberals want to huff and puff about what's going on in red state's on these issues but there's crickets when it comes to these same issues happenning in blue states...



Edited by chunkstyle (07/21/18 04:51 PM)

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#307590 - 07/21/18 06:10 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2131
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Perhaps this is the real problem. The Right understands, completely, the importance of language and demonization. The Left, apparently, doesn't thing that language is important and demonization is a myth. This is being played out, right now, and right here.

Not much more about this to talk about............

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#307592 - 07/21/18 06:47 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16232
I agree with your proposal, jgw. Values, values, values. I think there are even conservatives who can be persuaded on that point. I think, chunk, and others, exaggerate the "disaster" of Clinton and the "strength" of the Republican plan. 70,000 votes. That's it.

But, to "take back" the country, the race has to be run and won all the way down to dog-catcher. That requires a commitment to the party at every level.

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#307593 - 07/21/18 07:07 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16232

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#307595 - 07/21/18 07:44 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14272
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The Left, apparently, doesn't thing that language is important

The right doesn't think that the truth is important. They're a lot more into propaganda and brainwashing than the left. They use fear of other races, fear of immigrants, fear of liberal politicians taking money from the rich. They use anger and false patriotism, they use religion as a weapon.

It's hard for reality to compete with the fantasy world the right has created. And you're saying that the way to beat them is to become more like them.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307596 - 07/22/18 12:26 AM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 973
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I agree with your proposal, jgw. Values, values, values. I think there are even conservatives who can be persuaded on that point. I think, chunk, and others, exaggerate the "disaster" of Clinton and the "strength" of the Republican plan. 70,000 votes. That's it.

But, to "take back" the country, the race has to be run and won all the way down to dog-catcher. That requires a commitment to the party at every level.


Rilly?
Is an historic wipeout of local, state and federal representation and the loss of legal redress for at least a generation and probably two or the looming overturning of Roe vs. Wade an exaggeration, NWP?

We got biblical wealth inequality and debt peonage. Mass incarceration and mass low wages. You'd think there would be plenty for the Democratic Party to say. You wonder at the willful obtuseness of trying to expand the parties base (as Corbyn did) but then you look at the who's running the party.

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#307603 - 07/22/18 05:20 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16232
Once again, chunk, you elide so many other factors to "pin the tale on the donkey". I don't dispute that democracy is in a world of hurt, but this is a condition of entropy that has been happening over decades. There are so many factors - economic, social, demographic, cultural, historical - that have combined to get us here. Hillary Clinton was still in Arkansas when it started, so you can't really blame her. (Besides, she's always been more liberal than her husband.) Americans, and voters in particular, generally only respond to crisis. They just haven't seen it until now. (I've been in a panic abhor the courts since Reagan.) Republicans have had their hair on fire for 70 years, so they're used to it.

I'm with you, my friend, on principles, but you spend so much time on friendly fire at trees, you don't recognize you're in the middle of a forest. If we focus on where we go from here, were much more likely to get there.

For me it's two parts: principles and a sales pitch. Identify the important principles (e.g., family, equality, freedom) and programs to achieve that (tuition relief, healthcare, etc. ), then crafting a message to convince voters to go along. The message will be different for different populations. In urban areas the emphasis has to be on progress and opportunity; in rural areas it has to be on preserving freedoms and security. It's possible to get there with the same programs if the arguments are made right. Rural, urban, white, brown, wealthy and poor all want the same things, they just view them differently. "Security" for a black man means not being shot by cops, but for a white means "keeping my job", for a rich man, it is "keeping my money", for a poor one, " something to eat and a place to sleep".

Universal healthcare, for example, works for everyone. For the poor person, it means health security; for the worker, it makes job security, since it travels; for the farmer, it is one less expense to take away from his profits; for the investor, it makes US goods competitive worldwide; for the elderly, it will make Medicare solvent for the future.

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#307607 - 07/22/18 08:06 PM Re: The Democratic Plan [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2131
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
This morning my wife had me watching Sunday politics. The Republicans now have their replies set in stone about the Jackass and what he says and does. Its really pretty good. They now hate everything he says but appreciate everything he does but, apparently, does not say. Their reply does a great job of blather getting in the way of fact. The fact is that the jackass took the side of Putin on TV against the United States. The Republicans, however, say that was not something he did but something he said and they now only approve of what he does. The inference is, of course, is that since this is not something he did, but rather something he said, it just doesn't count.

The Republicans are GREAT at obsfucation and baloney and, from what I heard, our newsies are all buying it as I didn't see one of them call a single Republican on this new, and clever talking point. My hope is that the Dems can turn on the light in their head and come up with a few talking points themselves, hopefully factual and not quite so sneaky. I also also not heard one Dem say anything like; "and what I will not support, or do is" and list a few of the really offensive things the Republicans have been able to do. I know, they mention some of the bad stuff but not enough, loud enough, or often enough. The Republicans, however, never miss a chance and are rarely called when they do.


Edited by jgw (07/22/18 08:06 PM)

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