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#307729 - 07/29/18 06:13 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2143
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I am not sure about the Libertarians want gov to control everything. I used to be a dues paying member of that merry band. They go along with the conservatives in that they believe ANYTHING that puts gov in charge is wrong. They want, instead, for everybody to pay their own way. Use a highway? - pay a toll, get an education? - pay for it out of your own pocket, need a fireman? - subscribe to a fireman service, need a policeman? - hope you paid into the police fund, need a doctor? - better have the big bucks. This is the Libertarian mantra, gov out, private money in and make sure there is no regulation either. The current efforts to destroy our system of public education is a Libertarian thing, for instance.

The basic facts remain the same. The left are for regulation and the right are not. The problem also remains - both sides go too far. The simple fact is that, when this happens, the people will end up taking it in the butt. When the jackass economy tanks we will all feel it and we will pay a price. When the left takes over (eventually) we will also pay a price for over regulation. These are things I believe we ALL know. What I don't understand is if that's true then what in the hell are we doing? On the face of it it would seem that our entire elected class has evacuated the premises and have opted for 'winning'. The problem is that 'winning' seems to be a personal thing and hasn't, really, much to do with the public at large.

I guess I should add that those that believe in social responsibility believe that the following services should be supported and regulated by gov (society at large):
Police
Firemen
Education
Healthcare
Legal System

I would add that these should be completely underwritten, and paid for, by gov. What we have, right now, with our system of higher education, is just flat out wrong. The problem is, obviously, that higher education has been hi-jacked by Libertarians.

We all know about healthcare and how that one is abused. Illness is a source of wealth rather than a source of healthcare and we are paying for that. As a simple matter of fact we pay over twice what other countries, with better healthcare, supported and paid for by gov (taxpayers). This is another Libertarian thing. However, if our government was even vaguely interested in fiscal responsibility this would change. If we went to a single payer system, and regulated the healthcare industry our healthcare costs would go down by at least 50%! This concept is called radical and too far left. The simple truth, again, is that simply makes sense.

Its pretty obvious that Americans are really not interested in logic, common sense, fiscal responsibility, etc. I guess, for us, its just too much trouble to act like responsible adults.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/health-costs-how-the-us-compares-with-other-countries


Edited by jgw (07/29/18 06:57 PM)

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#307730 - 07/29/18 06:55 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 995
Originally Posted By: jgw
<sigh> I am not sure about the Libertarians want gov to control everything. I used to be a dues paying member of that merry band. They go along with the conservatives in that they believe ANYTHING that puts gov in charge is wrong. They want, instead, for everybody to pay their own way. Use a highway? - pay a toll, get an education? - pay for it out of your own pocket, need a fireman? - subscribe to a fireman service, need a policeman? - hope you paid into the police fund, need a doctor? - better have the big bucks. This is the Libertarian mantra, gov out, private money in and make sure there is no regulation either. The current efforts to destroy our system of public education is a Libertarian thing, for instance.

What is this left that you keep mentioning, JGW?
If it's anything to the left of the gold bug libertarians and crypto fascist of our political spectrum you are still in the right wing of political spectrum. Neoliberals like the New Democrats are center right. So what is this left that you are talking about and how has it been able to wield political power for you to feel it has gone to far?

The basic facts remain the same. The left are for regulation and the right are not. The problem also remains - both sides go too far. The simple fact is that, when this happens, the people will end up taking it in the butt. When the jackass economy tanks we will all feel it and we will pay a price. When the left takes over (eventually) we will also pay a price for over regulation. These are things I believe we ALL know. What I don't understand is if that's true then what in the hell are we doing? On the face of it it would seem that our entire elected class has evacuated the premises and have opted for 'winning'. The problem is that 'winning' seems to be a personal thing and hasn't, really, much to do with the public at large.

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#307735 - 07/30/18 09:03 AM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7934
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
I am not sure about the Libertarians want gov to control everything.


I'm sorry if my post was not clear: The Communist Party wants Government to control everything. Libertarian extremists want Government to control nothing.

We are pretty much on the same page in terms of government services we want. Most Americans are, when you omit the Party labels and ask about specific issues.

If you do bring up the Party labels, everybody goes nuts: "Democrats want mandatory abortion." and "Republicans want to bring back slavery." This is the partisan disease that started with Newt. Anything to win, that's all that matters. Don't vote for a bill the other side promotes, even if you like it.

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#307741 - 07/30/18 09:33 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 995
There is no Left JGW. Where is this left that has had political agency to go to far? We put the nail in the coffin of a coherent and effective left with the right turn of the boomers and the election of Reagan.

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#307742 - 07/31/18 04:24 AM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13302
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Is that why the Regressives are out to destroy the meanings of all words?
Yes. Godwin's law* on steroids. "Socialism!" is the new "Nazism". The goal of regressives is to shut down all rational discussions, because rationality is the enemy of regressionism. They co-opt all kinds of language and corrupt their meaning like a Russian malware attack. "Conservative", "liberal", "socialist" are all subjects of their attacks. By destroying the meaning of words, it's like a DDOS attack that renders discussion impossible.


"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."

PHILIP K. DICK
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#307748 - 07/31/18 10:14 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Online   content

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14285
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Where is this left that has had political agency to go to far?

Right now that would be Bernie and Alexandria and their supporters. There's a pretty good handful of Progressive candidates across the country too. They're a pretty vocal group and they use the "S" word a lot. It has the Elderdems in a tizzy. But it's not a very large movement yet. We're still a ways off from a nice Scandinavian style Democracy that's based on rational public policy.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307749 - 07/31/18 10:19 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13302
Loc: Whittier, California
Not to mention that the mainstream media has vastly distorted and oversimplified the Russia issue, attempting to boil it down to "did they hack the voting machines or didn't they?" and "did Donnie collude or didn't he?"
It ain't so simple. And it's not so cut and dried either.

What Russia has MOSTLY done is to step in and help raise the temperature, increase the friction, dump in several million metric tons of bullshit disinfo and sow enough discord to where almost NO SINGLE sector in the country's liberal, independent or conservative sphere has a decent modicum of trust in America's basic institutions anymore.

Scratch any of those groups and, even on the liberal side, there's more than a bit of distrust.
It looks and sounds different than the distrust from the other two sides but it's there just the same.
What Russia has managed to do gets right down the core of Philip K. Dick's mantra:

"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use those words."

Not only has Russia managed to manipulate the reality right down to the institutional level, they've actually managed to manipulate it down to the very level of the words we are using.
This ain't your grandpa's Cold War Soviet disinfo.

No sir, this is some of the most sophisticated psyop syrup to come down the pike. Even the boys at Rand Corporation are scratching their heads.
The Kremlin has managed to expose our own psyop factories as amateurs.
Somewhere in between Yeltsin standing atop some tanks and Matt Taibbi's Viagra-fueled tour of Moscow's fleshpots, the Russkies got VERY VERY GOOD at this.

By simple virtue of the act of destroying the meaning of words and flogging the turbocharged disinfo stream, it's like that "DDOS attack that renders discussion impossible."
It renders discussion impossible and it renders the people unreachable, which renders our nation ungovernable.

And very soon, if we don't slam an ash stake in the heart of this, they will succeed at molding American society into one patterned after their own likeness, a cold and brutal slab of grey concrete faces that don't give two sh!ts about anything, a feral pack of wolves ready to sell their own mothers down the river just to score a jab at the heart of people they've been programmed to believe "are not like us".

And the number of feral tribes in this country is multiplying at an exponential rate. Sectarian violence cannot be far behind.
They won't have to fire a single bullet, we will have asphyxiated ourselves by our own hand.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#307836 - 08/08/18 06:47 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16236
If Gretchen Whitmer is ‘the establishment,’ progressives are winning - think progress. Winning, I will add, only if they vote in the Democratic nominee, and don't go off to sulk in November.

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#307856 - 08/11/18 04:15 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 995
If you enter a garbage truck in a parade it won't be sulking but disgust and disillusionment NWP.
Whitmer is establishment from what I can tell and her background and family history is all white collar professionalism but I wouldn't hold that against her. Since I don't live on Michigan i don't have a clue on her consistency.
What I do know about is the coopting of left wing progressive policies during elections and then getting on the phones to reassure the donor class they weren't serious the day after the election.
H3ll, Perez couldn't even fake it till November and is framing fossil fuel money as protecting the fossil fuel lil guys free speech. Were setting heat records across the planet while driving to the malls blowing past the 410ppm mark.
Doesn't seem rational to vote against your interests just cuz theirs a blue banana sticker on it.


Edited by chunkstyle (08/11/18 04:23 PM)

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#307857 - 08/11/18 05:26 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Online   content

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14285
Loc: Florida
Yeah, Trump is okay with me too. Not enough difference between the two parties to bother voting...
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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