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#307623 - 07/23/18 11:03 AM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
S'all part of the plan, PIA. Shed the left while picking up the right.
I'm still voting for progressives but the republicans with a D next to their name? Fuggedaboutit.
You gunna vote to overturn Roe or Dodd Frank, consumer protection, etc, simply because of a letter in the alphabet? Maybe we should start voting rationally?

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#307624 - 07/23/18 06:21 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2195
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
If the right wins again we WILL, absolutely, lose Roe and Dodd Frank, and consumer protection. We will also bring back torture and also get another war. I don't think there is any doubt about that. We will also get the Jackass plan to fix infrastructure by giving away all our roads, bridges and dams (just for starters) If anybody does not want to see that happen then they had best vote Democratic, if not, and the worst happens ...........

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#307627 - 07/23/18 07:10 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8072
Loc: North San Diego County
These supposed republicans with D next to their name still caucus with the Democratic Party. On most issues, they vote with the Democratic Party leadership. The party is not benefited by amputating it's more conservative wing. Those people got elected by their home state or district: If you want them to elect more progressive candidates, then move to that state and run for the office. Convince them to elect you.

Throwing a temper tantrum because you don't like the Party's candidate and staying home, is cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's essentially giving a half vote to the Republican. If enough progressives do that, then we get Republican Congress in 2018 and Trump reelected in 2020.

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#307630 - 07/23/18 11:40 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
These supposed republicans with D next to their name still caucus with the Democratic Party. On most issues, they vote with the Democratic Party leadership. The party is not benefited by amputating it's more conservative wing. Those people got elected by their home state or district: If you want them to elect more progressive candidates, then move to that state and run for the office. Convince them to elect you.

Throwing a temper tantrum because you don't like the Party's candidate and staying home, is cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's essentially giving a half vote to the Republican. If enough progressives do that, then we get Republican Congress in 2018 and Trump reelected in 2020.


It's not rational to vote against your interest PIA. Nor is it throwing a temper tantrum. Im not convinced that the Democratic Party leadership has my interest at heart. It has continued to interfere with primary elections, favoring conservative corporate friendly candidates and incumbents over more progressive ones.
It hasn't made much sense to amputate it's left arm but that is exactly what has happenned and is still happening. That is the choice people have been given thru gaming primaries.
It makes sense to me to want centrists to lose and progressives to win. Voting for the same neoliberal consensus has lead to massive inequality and paved the way to facism, IMO. It's not rational to keep supporting that concensus.
Your situation might be different and your interest have been getting served. I understand your wanting to maintain it. Voting left may not be in your interest. I understand your satisfaction seeing that maintained and would choose a centrist over a progressive or socialist. I wouldn't call that a tantrum. I'd call that rational politics.

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#307635 - 07/24/18 06:09 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2195
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I don't think it matters whether the DNC has anything, other than winning, is currently all that important. The time for infighting can wait until the Jackass, and his minions are gone. I am not a big supporter, or believer in the DNC but I support them when they are running against the jackass and his minions. If they win again I cannot even conceive their next agenda. In other words, I think it would be wise to get rid of the enemy we know before we start chopping and hewing against anybody in the left or anyplace else, as far as that is concerned.

Once that gets accomplished, and the Republican party stopped, THEN its time to deal with other matters. How does it go, something like; "If we don't stick together then we will, assuredly, all lose". This is not just speculation but, rather, pure fact and we all know it.

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#307637 - 07/24/18 06:32 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8072
Loc: North San Diego County
If the three important positions are Republican, Democrat, and Socialist it makes perfect sense for the Socialists and Democrats to join forces to defeat the Republicans. Once that is done, we would have a debate and compromise between the Democratic and Socialist positions. That pretty much describes the arc of history in the US for the last century. The centrist Democrats gradually concede points and create institutions that support Socialist ideals. Like the end of slavery, Women's suffrage, TVA, WPA, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Civil Rights, EPA, ACA, federal college grants and loans, etc.

We are moving to become a better country. This how it gets done in America. Yes, there are Blue Dog Democrats in the Party, and sometimes they don't vote the way the rest of the Party does. That's life! Those people were elected by their constituents as opposed to electing a troglodyte Republican who would vote against your interests every time. If you want to change that, it does absolutely no good to stay home on election day. If Democrats (even Blue Dogs) serve their constituents well, it makes it more likely that a Democrat will succeed them when they leave the office. If Democrats hold sway and pass a lot of programs that people like, it makes it more likely Democrats will continue to hold office. They will be in a position to pass bills that support Socialists ideas. If Republicans hold power, forget it: They will undue everything we have accomplished.

Personally, I am more Democratic-Socialist than Corporate Democrat, but I am also a realist. I understand how you get this supertanker that is America to turn left.

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#307650 - 07/25/18 06:30 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14416
Loc: Florida
Quote:
We are moving to become a better country.

Not at the moment. We are currently moving towards a fascist dictatorship.
I'm pretty much a socialist. I celebrate every progressive advance.
I'd like to see a progressive candidate in every Democratic primary across the nation. They may not win but people will get used to seeing them around and will become more acquainted with their policies.
Chunkstyle talks a great game, but Progressives aint got the chops yet to take over. They don't have enough candidates, they don't have enough financial backing, and they don't have the votes.
Hopefully, given time, this will change.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#307652 - 07/25/18 06:49 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8072
Loc: North San Diego County
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step". Lao Tzu

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#307665 - 07/26/18 07:26 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2195
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I am curious. The main tenant of socialism is that ALL means of production should be owned by government. This is the basis for socialism. Do those of you claiming socialism actually believe it would be a good thing for gov to own ALL means of production?

Oh, "Democratic Socialism". I think that everybody thinks this is socialism. Apparently this is not true so, what, exactly, is "Democratic Socialism"

Just curious.........

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#307667 - 07/26/18 08:22 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16372
My .02$. Really, jgw, what you describe is the difference between communism and socialism (as modernly understood). Democratic-socialists don't look so much at "means of production", or the economic element, as the "welfare of society", or political element.

Communists are authoritarian-economists who "head fake" toward social control of the means of production. Communism, in practice, is really just fascism in different clothes, while socialism tends to be more aspirational. In democratic-socialist countries (including the United States), some elements of the economy may be controlled by government (e.g., public schools, social security), while others remain in private hands. In other areas the government exerts control indirectly, through regulation, rather than taking ownership.

That is why I tend to describe my views as "progressive" rather than "socialist". Less confusion. Progressive, to me, describes the philosophic view of using the government to support the masses and individual rights, rather than addressing economic principles authoritatively. Thus economic equality can be achieved by a variety of methods, not just by government control of the means of production. For example,
laws that prohibit unwanted activities (like discrimination) may still result in greater economic equality.

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