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#307669 - 07/26/18 10:04 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 914
My understanding of it is that citizens have control over how resources are divide in the public and private sphere.
It's goal is to democratize the decision making on how resources ought to be divided.
Currently we have the donor class making those decisions for us while economic, civil and representative rights and freedoms have been reduced.

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#307670 - 07/27/18 01:24 AM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7747
Loc: North San Diego County
I think there is a place for private and corporate ownership of things, with individuals opting to own part of corporations by buying stock and bonds. This means that only citizens who put their money where their mouth is, can exert that kind of control. But besides stock holder ownership, government has a lot of control by regulation as well. Capitalism without government regulation is doomed to sink to the lowest, meanest common denominator, doing anything to make money.

This is Scandinavian-style socialism and it works very well for it's citizens. The US has a similar system: The only difference is the level of government services and taxes.

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#307673 - 07/27/18 01:50 AM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14087
Loc: Florida
So what do we modern day socialists want? Certainly not nationalization of the railroads, farms, factories, and banks.

I think at the top of everybody's list is socialized medicine.
Affordable healthcare for everyone. Medicare for All. It won't be long now. I think I can safely say sometime in the next 20 years.

A living wage. $15 would be a good start. Maybe $12 for teen workers in school. But whatever it is it needs to provide enough money for rent, groceries, transportation, etc. This includes paid vacations, 401Ks, parental leave and all the things workers need to keep from needing government assistance like food stamps and whatnot.

Free college tuition. If America plans to become great again or remain great, or whatever, it needs an educated work force. We need people bright enough to build the machines that build the machines. We need technicians to operate and maintain the machines. Science and technology are the keys to the future. Education is the key to science and technology.

Industry needs to be held to high environmental standards. Strict regulations with swift and expensive punishments. We are facing innumerable environmental crises. Global warming, pollution, and the poisoning of our seas, soil, and atmosphere. We've also got massive infrastructure problems and crumbling bridges.

What all this boils down to is the very socialist sounding "redistribution of wealth" The wealthy have become just too stupidly wealthy while everyone else suffers.
Too many resources going to the top and too few remaining for the rest of us.

Government doesn't need to own the means of production. It already reserves the right to tax and regulate it. We need to get on with the taxation and regulation and things will all start ticking along smoothly. Rich people will still be rich. But their hoards will be slightly smaller.
Higher wages, higher taxes, more government services. Don't privatize, socialise!
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#307674 - 07/27/18 02:20 AM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: Greger]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14087
Loc: Florida
In a much smaller nutshell...Look at Socialism's two major successes in the US: Social Security and Medicare.

There are lots more where those came from.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#307681 - 07/27/18 10:59 AM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16098
Socialism is rational. (An even smaller nutshell.)

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#307682 - 07/27/18 11:59 AM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16098
There are elements of the economy where the government ought to be a, or the, direct player, even if private activity is not precluded, or even dominates. Medicine is one; education; mass transit; social security. Public lands, obviously. There are probably others, at least in some areas: energy, for example (solar/wind farms); cooperative banks, utilities and even groceries. Government should be able to step in and provide directly services in underserved communities, even in competition with private enterprise. If banks don't serve inner city areas, put in a government-owned branch. Government really can't have an "unfair advantage" in competition. If it is profitable, businesses will do it, and maybe even better.

Even in some economic activities that are or should be government run, private enterprise can, and does, compete. Private colleges thrive, even where public schools exist; private hospitals and doctors; private transportation; banks; private insurance; pensions. Some supplement existing services (e.g. Medicare plans), some provide alternatives to public enterprises, like utilities. I can't think of an area of the economy that doesn't have private counterparts (although some shouldn't, like prisons).

The central point is that government has a role to play in many aspects of the economy, and in many cases can do it better (Medicare for example). Often government is the only option. Too often it fails to step in when it should.

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#307683 - 07/27/18 03:24 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 914
Capitalism is a death cult.

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#307684 - 07/27/18 06:20 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7747
Loc: North San Diego County
Capitalism without government regulation is a death cult. Worker-owned business are a real form of capitalism. Nothing wrong with them! So are 401Ks. There are many very useful forms of capitalism.

There are malignant forms, like rich people passing laws to benefit rich people, or companies hiring goons to kill strikers. Government is the only force powerful enough to counter those malignant forms.

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#307687 - 07/27/18 07:38 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Online   content
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2053
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I think what you guys are trying to express is what my wife calls "social responsibility" - socialism is something entirely different. Its kinda like the old adage that goes something like; "you can dress up a pig but its still a pig".

If you google "socialism" you will get a LOT of hits. Here is one that is long and detailed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism There are also smaller, dictionary definitions. That being said, the single thread running through the whole thing is to have gov (sometimes called community) in charge of EVERYTHING. Anytime something like this has been tried it has failed. The problem with gov is that it sometimes (almost always) goes too far, not unlike our own political parties. Nobody has ever figured out how to stop that.

I have, for a very long time, defined the left as those who believe that humans need regulation and the right believe the opposite. I also, again, absolutely fear the ability of all sides to go just too damned far and "democratic socialism" seems to me to be flying down that road. I prefer "social responsibility", especially the 'responsible' part which, currently, has simply been forgotten. I consider myself to be "socially responsible" and believe that gov is there to manage and regulate efforts in that direction (the right is against gov because it regulates). I could start listing all the efforts, needs, wants, etc. but this is already too long.

One example of too far would be the regulation and Obamacare. There were, at least, 5000 pages of regulations in that law. The legislation itself was poorly written and there were a number of 'underlines' which were left for the bureaucracy to fill in. Here is one link on the regulations themselves (you can google for a LOT more). https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fac...m=.c4310cc28897

I should also mention that these were not so much added by the Obama Administration as the bureaucracy of the United States Government. That bureaucracy is one of the reasons for the election of the Jackass. There has not been an overhaul of gov and bureaucracy since the Hoover Commission under Harry Truman. The current administration has been 'fixing' it by trying to destroy it. In the end BOTH sides screwed up by GOING TO DAMNED FAR!


Edited by jgw (07/27/18 07:47 PM)

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#307690 - 07/27/18 09:21 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14087
Loc: Florida
JGW...try to stop looking at modern Democratic Socialists as Marxists.

In fact, even though they call themselves Democratic Socialists, they are Social Democrats. At least Bernie and Ocasio-Cortez are. We already have a mixed system part socialist part Capitalist. Modern socialists

Stop googling socialism and start doing some real research. Perhaps take a look at the success of the Scandinavian countries. We all know about the "Means Of Production" clause in the Socialist Manifesto but that's not the revolution we are fighting today.

But your wife is right...Social Democracy is all about social responsibility.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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