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#307692 - 07/27/18 09:49 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Capitalism without government regulation is a death cult. Worker-owned business are a real form of capitalism. Nothing wrong with them! So are 401Ks. There are many very useful forms of capitalism.

There are malignant forms, like rich people passing laws to benefit rich people, or companies hiring goons to kill strikers. Government is the only force powerful enough to counter those malignant forms.


Yes, 401's are capitalism. It's rentier in nature and sociopathic in practice. Tell me, PIA, do you have a 401 and does it rely on fossil fuels?
If so, are those fossil fuels helping tp deregulate the economy and environment? Is that industry actively engaged in destroying the possibility of organized human exhistince by bringing about environmental disaster or do you think, as mega bucks Rex Tillerson believes, that the problems that will arise from his industry will be manageable?
Do you think the economy should grow in the pursuit of profit? Do you understand the concept of negative growth? The point at which growth is unsustainable and any further growth comes at a cost politically and environmentally? Or do you think growth is infinite and can go on for ever?
If yes, please explain how that can occur on a planet of limited resources?
If not, what do you suppose the limit is and are we there yet?
I realize the term 'late stage capitalism' has been used for decades now but it sure feels like we've turned the corner on something.


Edited by chunkstyle (07/27/18 09:50 PM)

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#307700 - 07/28/18 12:20 AM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8072
Loc: North San Diego County
We are obscuring the origins of the ACA by calling it ObamaCare. The executive branch really did not write it! It was all Congressional staffers and then approved by Congress as a whole. Obama just signed it and was never allowed to modify any part of it. Obama actually supported a government option but Congress left that out to appease Republicans. Didn't help.

5000 pages because it is a complex subject, and if you don't cover all the fine points insurance companies will find a way to cheat. But you can summarize the main points on one sheet of paper. And it's those broad points the Republicans are attacking.

We already have a Social Democracy: We have government regulations so companies can't do things that kill people (but they keep on looking for new ways). We have social safety net programs. We even have "hate crimes", so bullies can't say hurtful things!

All the friction between left and right is just about the details about which things should be government-controlled. Only the Communist Party and the Extreme Libertarians favor all or none, when it comes to government control, and everybody knows they are insane.

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#307702 - 07/28/18 12:59 AM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
We just passed 410 parts per million of CO2 level.
It's a death cult.

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#307704 - 07/28/18 03:45 AM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
New York City has thousands of homeless it won't do anything about.
It has spent millions to help finance this countries largest private luxory real estate developement.

The rich getting theirs

It's reminiscent of Ireland's poor starving while it's crops were sent to markets in England to fetch a higher price.

Capitalism is full of contradictions and falsehoods that requires people to ignore. It doesnt deliver what it's been sold to.


Edited by chunkstyle (07/28/18 04:05 AM)

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#307709 - 07/28/18 12:08 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8912
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
We just passed 410 parts per million of CO2 level.
It's a death cult.

I blame sophisticated investors.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#307716 - 07/28/18 09:23 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2195
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
My point is pretty simple. The word "socialism" makes some froth at the mouth, many have no idea what its about they just know its 'evil' and has something to do with 'Communism' which is also offensive. I find it interesting that so many would insist that "democratic socialism" even makes sense. I guess its really important to use 'socialism' to try and spread the 'truth'. Its yet another great idea to further splinter the splintered. Sorry, I just thought it might not be wise to turn off folks before a case can be made. I guess those folks don't count, even though they vote. The word 'socialism' will actually work quite well in shutting down their minds before you send the message. GREAT JOB!

The girl who beat the Dem drone is already being painted as a 'socialist', not a "democratic socialist" just a plain old socialist. That means, of course, that anybody on a fence is not going to vote for her. Again, WORDS COUNT!


Edited by jgw (07/28/18 10:38 PM)

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#307719 - 07/28/18 10:14 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: jgw]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8912
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Is that why the Regressives are out to destroy the meanings of all words?

Your point is well taken, jgw, but what happens when we run out of words that still have actual meanings?
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#307720 - 07/28/18 10:39 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2195
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
like 'bigity' <g>

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#307721 - 07/29/18 12:07 AM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: jgw]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8912
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
As in "bigity boo"?
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#307724 - 07/29/18 11:36 AM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16372
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Is that why the Regressives are out to destroy the meanings of all words?
Yes. Godwin's law* on steroids. "Socialism!" is the new "Nazism". The goal of regressives is to shut down all rational discussions, because rationality is the enemy of regressionism. They co-opt all kinds of language and corrupt their meaning like a Russian malware attack. "Conservative", "liberal", "socialist" are all subjects of their attacks. By destroying the meaning of words, it's like a DDOS attack that renders discussion impossible.

Originally Posted By: pondering it all
All the friction between left and right is just about the details about which things should be government-controlled. Only the Communist Party and the Extreme Libertarians favor all or none, when it comes to government control, and everybody knows they are insane.
We've already established what you are, now we're just dickering over the price. It is easy to disrupt any discussion by painting your "opponent" with extreme branding. It goes on here, as well (e.g., painting Obama and Clinton as corporate shills). Moreover, by muddying the waters, extremists get a pass when they really are doing the bad things we fear. That is one thing that Trump has done really well.

*Godwin's law (or Godwin's rule of Hitler analogies) is an internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1"; that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds. (From Wikipedia) I heard a great discussion on NPR including Godwin, himself, about how extreme language choices shut down rational discussion. Wish I could link it.

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