Current Topics
The End of the Independent Judiciary
by Ma_Republican
0 seconds ago
Our modern Sinclair Lewis?
by pondering_it_all
Today at 07:10 AM
Code for no black people': New York bar's 'racist' dress code sparks online deba
by pondering_it_all
Today at 06:57 AM
RoundTable for September 2018
by pondering_it_all
Today at 06:53 AM
Answer (Fredric Brown, 1954)
by pondering_it_all
Today at 06:41 AM
A time when politics were not all about greed
by pondering_it_all
Today at 06:35 AM
The United States v Donald Trump
by rporter314
09/24/18 12:54 PM
How the octopus got its smarts
by Ujest Shurly
09/24/18 02:32 AM
Returning rationality to public policy
by NW Ponderer
09/20/18 04:03 PM
The Savage Breast: A Music Clip Thread
by Golem
09/20/18 12:58 AM
Yom Kippur and Kol Nidre
by Golem
09/18/18 06:57 PM
Miscellaneous humor thread
by Golem
09/17/18 10:21 PM
Justice is coming
by jgw
09/17/18 09:37 PM
Flor-i-duh's Governor's Race
by Greger
09/17/18 06:19 PM
‘Unprecedented’: Natural gas expert says ‘over-pressurization’ may be to blame
by NW Ponderer
09/17/18 03:02 PM
George Conway rips Trump over tweet about Obama's '57 states' gaffe
by pdx rick
09/17/18 04:37 AM
Obama's Friday Speech
by pondering_it_all
09/14/18 06:51 AM
Woodward book breaks 93-year publishing record
by Greger
09/14/18 03:01 AM
Mike Rowe on Nike / Kaepernick and 9/11 hero Tom Burnett
by Greger
09/12/18 02:17 AM
The nuclear option
by Greger
09/12/18 01:22 AM
Forum Stats
6248 Members
58 Forums
16385 Topics
282020 Posts

Max Online: 294 @ 12/06/17 12:57 AM
Google Adsense
Page 9 of 17 < 1 2 ... 7 8 9 10 11 ... 16 17 >
Topic Options
#307918 - 08/15/18 08:51 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: Ma_Republican]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7891
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Spain and Greece

Ma_Republican: Why not Sweden and Denmark? Norway, England, even Canada or Germany? Yes, our current health care system forces you to keep working until you get on Medicare (our version of socialized medicine). We even let the poor or people with health disasters get one form or another of socialized medicine. ACA's intent was to solve the portability problem for people who had to switch jobs or work a job with no benefits. Now if we go back to Trump's new health care policies it means more medical bankruptcies. Idiocy!

You say you only care about you and your family? What happens if you die? Should nobody care about what happens to your family? Just because you are all self-sufficient now, shortly you won't be. When you turn 65 will you be turning down MediCare? When you retire will you tell Social Security "No Thanks"? If your house catches on fire, will you not call the fire department? Do you stick only to toll roads?

If America is 50% socialist, then you are 49%. But you can't see it just like a fish can't see the water it swims in.

Top
#307930 - 08/16/18 12:28 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: pondering_it_all]
Ma_Republican Online   content
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6497
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
Spain and Greece

Ma_Republican: Why not Sweden and Denmark? Norway, England, even Canada or Germany? Yes, our current health care system forces you to keep working until you get on Medicare (our version of socialized medicine). We even let the poor or people with health disasters get one form or another of socialized medicine. ACA's intent was to solve the portability problem for people who had to switch jobs or work a job with no benefits. Now if we go back to Trump's new health care policies it means more medical bankruptcies. Idiocy!

You say you only care about you and your family? What happens if you die? Should nobody care about what happens to your family? Just because you are all self-sufficient now, shortly you won't be. When you turn 65 will you be turning down MediCare? When you retire will you tell Social Security "No Thanks"? If your house catches on fire, will you not call the fire department? Do you stick only to toll roads?

If America is 50% socialist, then you are 49%. But you can't see it just like a fish can't see the water it swims in.


Sweden and Denmark are having their own issues right now. There is actually a little bit of a tax revolt going on. Seems that they are spending huge sums of money on immigrants from the Middle East and the immigrants are complaining that they aren't getting enough while the citizens who actually invested years in the countries are seeing their services and hospitality abused.

I pay my taxes, and carefully plan for my future. If I were to die tomorrow, my wife would probably be OK. She would survive and wouldn't have to work.

Roads, bridges and infrastructure have to be maintained. Once that area of the tax expenditures starts to slip, then people start to complain, and when that doesn't work they leave (see Detroit). Medicare is a benefit I will take advantage of. Social Security is actually my money, it isn't a governmental entitlement.

I will take advantage of everything that the government allows me to take advantage of. This is why I work and pay taxes. The real protest on my part is taking everything that I can. If it is there, and it is offered, I would be stupid to say no.

Tim


Edited by Ma_Republican (08/16/18 12:30 PM)
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

Top
#307944 - 08/17/18 01:09 AM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7891
Loc: North San Diego County
Maybe you are actually 50% socialist, but just like to complain. Good for you. Collect those benefits. Participate in our socialist programs. I'm certainly going to.

And I think Sweden and Denmark are actually running just about like they always have for the past 50 years. The complaints you read about immigrants come from their far-right very small minority parties. Just goes to show that any system you have, there will be somebody who complains.

Top
#307948 - 08/17/18 04:04 AM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13271
Loc: Whittier, California
If there were never any complaints, I'd start trying to figure out who muzzled the people or the press, or both.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

Top
#307997 - 08/19/18 07:03 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2101
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
There seems to be 2 kinds of socialist. The first, the classic socialist, is one that believes that ALL means of production, at every level, is controlled by the government for the benefit of the citizen. This is, apparently, because the citizen cannot be trusted to do it on their own. This has been tried several times, and has failed several times. Unfortunately, in the minds of many, this is what socialism is all about.

The second kind believes in social responsibility. This means, to me, that there is a responsibility of every citizen, to support a societal effort to provide, and regulate, services for the whole. Under this comes those services we have come to expect and some that we should expect. This includes things like; Libraries, Police, Fire Departments, Public Schools, Roads and Highways, Dams, etc. (there are any number of these and we have come to expect them and raise hell when they screw it up).

There are others that we should have, that most of the rest of the worlds nation are already providing. At top of that list, for me, is Healthcare. As a nation we are already spending something like 3 times more than other industrialized nations for a system of Healthcare that is not the best in the world but something like 39th in the world. Our system is so bad that our life expectancy is actually dropping! We are 32nd in the world when it comes to American males reaching the grand old age of 65! The secret of the other nations successfully providing healthcare for their citizens is pretty simple, at least on the face of it - they regulation the hell out of healthcare, every facet of healthcare industry and do not allow greed to get in the way. We should do the same and, as far as I can tell, the real problem is, again, twofold. The first is the word "socialism" as that is known to be an absolutely failure (and unfortunate). The second is that our nation seems to admire and currently exist because of "greed". I suspect that "greed" is actually admired by many and any suggestion that somebody wants to get rid of it is a bad person. So, to maintain greed, not be socialist, we are quite willing to spend more on healthcare than just about everybody else. There is a current drive to make medicare universal which means that everybody will have to pony up several hundreds of dollars to do that dance, healthcare doesn't get regulated, greed continues unabated, prices continue to the rise, drug companies get to keep on raping the populace, equipment manufacturers get to keep on killing, etc.

The current goal, of the current administration, is to privatize, or keep privatized, everything that can be. This has included, but not exclusive to, our national parks, The Veteran Administration, Healthcare, Fire Departments, etc. Much of this has been brought on by over regulation by a national bureaucracy, that has not been overhauled in something like 80 years (last time was the Hoover commission), and which seems to be more interested in keeping their jobs than doing their mission.

The question remains; "What in the HELL are we doing?" (whatever it is, it is not rational!)


Edited by jgw (08/19/18 07:12 PM)

Top
#308005 - 08/20/18 12:05 AM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7891
Loc: North San Diego County
Like I've said before, on the grand scale of full-on Socialism and full-on Capitalism we in America are about 50% socialist and 50% capitalist. We have LOTS of services supplied by the government and paid for by taxes, and yet almost everybody has a 401K or similar scheme to own stock. Our infamous two sides of the political spectrum are actually an argument between 40:60 or 60:40 percent socialists! Kind of silly, isn't it?

Instead of all this pandering and posing, we could just have a rational discussion and then a big vote: Do we want government to supply healthcare to all, and pay for it through taxes instead of the current mix of taxes and insurance premiums. It would end up being cheaper, because we would get rid of all the people who make a killing off the industry. Like the drug companies that soak insurance companies and Medicare $65,000 a year for a drug that costs them less than $100 a year to make. (Like the one I take!)

But we have no end of politicians who tell us it's an issue worth dying over, one way or the other.

Top
#308006 - 08/20/18 12:32 AM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13271
Loc: Whittier, California
Oh Hell to the NO, we WERE 50/50 once upon a time.
We're closer to 30/70 now, maybe 40/60, and the part that hurts is, of the 30 or 40 percent that remains, political operatives are fighting tooth and nail to kill it off in a death by a thousand cuts scheme.

If we had single payer health care and free/subsidized university, THEN we'd be 50/50.

And remember, every time a town votes for "charter schools", God kills a tiny kitten.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

Top
#308009 - 08/20/18 02:54 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16205
I had an epiphany, of sorts, this morning (for which I thank jgw and the Russian revolution), where Trump and republicanism suddenly clicked into historical place.

When it first came into existence as a separate party, Republicans were the "progressive" party - being anti-slavery, and pro capitalist - at least in comparison to the Democratic party (originally Democratic Republicans), who were the party of agrarians and anti-centralization. It wasn't until after Theodore Roosevelt that the Republicans fully abandoned the mantle of industrial progress. (Remember that Wilson was an unabashed racist from a rural State).

My realization was that the 1960s switch of the "Dixiecrats" was not an abandonment, but a natural realignment. From the 1870s, elements of the party became increasingly reactionary, seeking to preserve the new post-Civil War status quo against the social changes wrought by industrialization - the rise of unionism, diversity of the workforce, urbanization of the populace. The two marker posts were the Roosevelts.

Teddy Roosevelt was the Apex of the progressive Republican. From his split with the party, the reactionary-conservative wing of the party grew. By the time of Franklin Roosevelt, it had assumed the majority, and the Democratic party had become the party of progress, social liberalism, and economic liberalism.

As Presidents, Eisenhower and Kennedy represented the passing of the baton. Eisenhower was the last Republican to support big, bold, changes, and Kennedy was the final fiscal conservative standard-bearer of the Democratic party. That was also the decade (1954-1964) where the sensibilities if the southern Democrats were more attuned to the Republican party than the Democratic.

Just as Nixon's "southern strategy" was a natural outgrowth of that realignment, so is Donald Trump's populist reactivatism. Nixon was the last Republican President to embrace, however reluctantly, any progressive actions (clean air, water, etc.), because there was still a moderate middle in Congress. Reagan was forced to accept moderation because he no longer controlled Congress. It has been all downhill since. Gingrich, Rove, Bush II, Ryan, McConnell and Trump form an unbroken trajectory. It's ballistic at this point.


Top
#308010 - 08/20/18 03:47 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 965
Sheesh, even politico is publishing a critique of centrism. Maybe there's hope...

failed thinking of the professional class

Top
#308012 - 08/20/18 07:05 PM Re: Returning rationality to public policy [Re: Ma_Republican]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6489
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
I am not my brother's keeper, I am not responsible for the homeless and lazy in the world. I am responsible for me, myself and my family.

Every time I see this I think back into the past and imagine this scenario ... the tribe is hunting saber tooth tigers and you, Tim, tell me you are not going to watch my back because you only look out for yourself ... so I think about that and tell my brothers in the tribe, Tim is only for himself ... he says frak me and all my brothers ... so I say, the next time we find a saber tooth tiger let Tim tackle it by himself ... maybe he lives this time and maybe not ... if not, then the tribe is stronger for it

Tim, as a human person, I would think you would want the species to survive ... maybe not ... maybe you don't give a sheis about anyone but yourself ... but as far as I am concerned I feel compelled by the biological imperative for our species to survive ... it is a group effort ... we band together and help each other ... family, friends, neighbors, communities, states, countries, the world ... you may be absent and I know there are plenty of people who are just as selfish ... and it doesn't bother me that you will reap the benefits of my efforts, my families efforts, communities, etc not particularly on your behalf on but everyone's behalf because we as humans look after each other

Perhaps as humans we don't deserve to survive, but I will continue to do my small to help all of humankind, even if I am the last man standing
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

Top
Page 9 of 17 < 1 2 ... 7 8 9 10 11 ... 16 17 >

Who's Online
0 registered (), 23 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
TrentonP, Nosf50, erumonej, Jensen Breck, Albertapkr
6248 Registered Users
A2