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#308684 - 09/27/18 09:55 PM if the Dems take over
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
We are now being told that its likely that the Dems are going to sweep the elections. I don't believe it but hope that is true. If they do I suspect there should be some wish lists for them to accomplish. Hopefully they can legislate rather than fight with one another (another exercise in wishful thinking).

Anyway, here are a couple of my thoughts on that one:
Start taxing the rich to pay the bills beginning with rescinding their last incredibly exorbitant tax decrease.

Institute another Hoover commission, with teeth, to examine and fix gov. Not wholesale get rid of all regulation so much as removing excess regulation, streamlining the bureaucracy, etc.

Put up some constitutional fixes.
Corporations are not single individual and should not be treated or taxed as such.
Money is NOT speech and should not be treated as such

Get the Equal rights amendment passed!

Put rules on the presidency and force congress to do their jobs!

Examine the best of the worldwide healthcare for all nations, pick the best of the best and pass us a universal healthcare that will control the entire healthcare industry just as others are doing right now!

I the above actually occurs then we should have enough money left to actually fix an infrastructure that is melting into the ground. (healthcare alone will save us over a trillion a year and taxing the top 5% should get us another trillion)

Fix a school system that has, approximately, close to a half a year of vacations/holidays/meetings/etc. To assume our school system can compete when our children get no instruction for almost half a year (summer, christmas, easter, etc) is simply nuts.

Start thinking about age restrictions for our elected. The VA sent me to a day long memory exam. This was given by a neurologist with a specialty in brain function. He told me that I was in the upper 10% of my age group. I am aware of how I did and I find it insane that we have elected that are serving at 85 years old! I watched the senator from Utah, on tv, simply forget where he was or what was going on. His staff bravely whispered in his ear what to say and act. It was pretty disgusting.

Pass a truth in political ads, ie. put our name on your ads. The Dems failed to pass this, the Republicans have also tried and failed. Its really time for this.

That is my contribution. I betcha there are a LOT more if you give it any thought at all.

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#308685 - 09/27/18 11:55 PM Re: if the Dems take over [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13419
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: jgw
We are now being told that its likely that the Dems are going to sweep the elections. I don't believe it but hope that is true. If they do I suspect there should be some wish lists for them to accomplish. Hopefully they can legislate rather than fight with one another (another exercise in wishful thinking).

Anyway, here are a couple of my thoughts on that one:
Start taxing the rich to pay the bills beginning with rescinding their last incredibly exorbitant tax decrease.

Institute another Hoover commission, with teeth, to examine and fix gov. Not wholesale get rid of all regulation so much as removing excess regulation, streamlining the bureaucracy, etc.

Put up some constitutional fixes.
Corporations are not single individual and should not be treated or taxed as such.
Money is NOT speech and should not be treated as such

Get the Equal rights amendment passed!

Put rules on the presidency and force congress to do their jobs!

Examine the best of the worldwide healthcare for all nations, pick the best of the best and pass us a universal healthcare that will control the entire healthcare industry just as others are doing right now!

I the above actually occurs then we should have enough money left to actually fix an infrastructure that is melting into the ground. (healthcare alone will save us over a trillion a year and taxing the top 5% should get us another trillion)

Fix a school system that has, approximately, close to a half a year of vacations/holidays/meetings/etc. To assume our school system can compete when our children get no instruction for almost half a year (summer, christmas, easter, etc) is simply nuts.

Start thinking about age restrictions for our elected. The VA sent me to a day long memory exam. This was given by a neurologist with a specialty in brain function. He told me that I was in the upper 10% of my age group. I am aware of how I did and I find it insane that we have elected that are serving at 85 years old! I watched the senator from Utah, on tv, simply forget where he was or what was going on. His staff bravely whispered in his ear what to say and act. It was pretty disgusting.

Pass a truth in political ads, ie. put our name on your ads. The Dems failed to pass this, the Republicans have also tried and failed. Its really time for this.

That is my contribution. I betcha there are a LOT more if you give it any thought at all.



Of all these, health care is probably the most immediate and pressing.
Excellent post.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#308689 - 09/28/18 02:31 AM Re: if the Dems take over [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Dear God Man! You've just written out the Democratic Socialists Utopian Wishlist!

Get a grip!

There's a price tag of about $40 Trillion on just a fraction of what you've listed. Alexandrea Ocasio-Cortez couldn't explain how she planned to pay for it and neither have you.

Universal Healthcare will not save the government any money. It's horrendously expensive and would require that everyone's taxes go up to pay for it. There aren't enough rich folks to pay everyone's medical bills even if you took every penny they had.

Maybe the Democrats will sweep this election. They may win a majority in the house. It will likely be a small majority, certainly not enough to institute major policy changes.

And Donald Trump will still be president and will veto everything, the Supreme Court will still have a conservative majority and will side with business over people.
Nate Silver gives Democrats one chance in three of taking the Senate. But even if it does it will be by a single seat, again not enough to dominate.

I don't disagree at all that those things(and more) need to be done and I hate to be a spoilsport but really, at best, if we sweep this election all it means is that we will have some control over what Donald Trump does over the next two years. That's it. That's what a Blue Wave will get us.

And the kicker is that if we reach a little too far, too soon, then Republicans will be fired up to take the nation back from the Godless Communists in 2020 and we'll lose any gains we made and have Trump for another four years.

This battle has been raging across the Galaxy for eons and was likely the cause of the BIG BANG which created our universe. Good vs Evil, Yin vs Yang, Greed vs Altruism, Right vs Left, Cowboys vs Indians...
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#308700 - 09/28/18 06:05 PM Re: if the Dems take over [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
First, we pay about a trillion dollars a year than the rest of the industrialized nations on earth. There is a reason for that and it is, basically, greed. Anyway, rather than try and explain it to you I will give you a couple of sites (there are a LOT more if you are really interested):
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/us-spends-health-care-countries-fare-study/story?id=53710650
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/char...alth-u-s-spends
The trick, I think, is to get control of the entire healthcare system. Obamacare made a run at it which is why the greedy have come out of the woodwork to kill it. Before the attacks, incidentally, costs were starting to trend downwards. Oh, our government, right now, spends almost more than the others with 'socialized' healthcare.

I threw those things out as a wishlist and don't think much of it would be legislated even of the Dems actually had the will. I remember when they tried, and failed, to pass the truth in political ads. Obamacare was REALLY poorly written and left much up to the bureaucracy to fill in (which they did with a will and over regulation).

Remember too, the far left is akin to the far right in that they are willing to sacrifice everything to get EVERYTHING they want rather than negotiate with anybody.

The only real way anything is going to get done is when we have that mythic elected class which understand how its supposed to work. That is when they all are actually willing to sit down and debate/discuss the issues until they can find common ground and then pass that. The main problem with our political party thing is that BOTH tend to extremes and common ground mitigates this. I don't think most want either side to get everything they want unless they are true believers. Right now, for instance, the Christian right has sacrificed everything in an effort to get rid of Roe and turn the United States into the Christian United States of America. If Jackass actually gets thrown out Pence will be quite willing to continue on this course. What I find interesting is that, apparently, the entire Republican party has also gone in this direction. Hopefully it won't happen that that's what they are gunning for. The only good thing about this is that the actual number of Republicans is going down as is, incidentally the Dems too. Independents are very close to having more 'members' than the total membership of BOTH parties!

We will, I think, always have 2 parties, whatever they are called. Remember, the Republicans sprang from the Whigs due to the Whig stance on slavery. I wonder if the same thing might happen over religion as, right now, the Republicans are not so much a party of the right as the party of the Christian right religion. That too, incidentally, has a little problem. I think I have told this one but its pertinent. A friend was a big backer of Right to Life folks. He gave them 20 grand and was at one of their get togethers. He was listening to a couple of other backers talking. One said to the other, "we are getting close to getting rid of Roe, then we are going to have to deal with the Papist Catholics". My friend left and never gave them another dime - he was Catholic (which remains the largest single Christian group in the United States of America).

I also think its interesting that The Republicans tend to get taken over by one group or another. A couple that have made strides in this direction is the Christian Right and the Libertarians. The Democrats, on the other hand, have the left to worry about. I can remember when the Socialist Workers Party (a dedicated, and scary, conglomeration of loons) and the Communists have both made runs on the Democratic party. I am basing this on the simple fact that my wife used to work for the DNC and told me stories. Even though folks might think the Socialists are in there I haven't really seen any real evidence of it. I am not talking about folks that believe in social causes, such as healthcare, libraries, schools, etc. but those who believe that the state needs to own and run ALL means of production (real Socialists).

"Democratic Socialist" has nothing to do with being a Socialist but, I think, being socially responsible and there IS a difference! (and also a really poor phrase all on its own which has resulted in the Republicans being able to claim that the Democrats are "Socialists".

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#308707 - 09/28/18 08:47 PM Re: if the Dems take over [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The trick, I think, is to get control of the entire healthcare system.

Am I correct that the man most adamant about Socialism being a bad thing now wants to nationalize an entire industry? And what Industry do you want the government to seize the means of production next?

Auto prices are soaring...shall we nationalize that next?
Banks? Farms? Factories? Railroads? I'm kidding of course. But do you see the issue here? Republicans, and a lot of Democrats, don't approve of these kind of shenanigans.
Quote:
we pay about a trillion dollars a year (more) than the rest of the industrialized nations on earth

The reason the US spends more isn't just government spending it's TOTAL spending. It includes our out of pocket expenses and insurance premiums.. Which are exorbitant compared to the rest of the world. But they pay a lot more taxes per capita than we do.
Here is a chart that shows you how little we pay in taxes compared to those other industrialized nations. There are other sites to visit if you want to find out more about that....;)

Are you beginning to grasp how this works? Taxes pay for healthcare in those countries.
Just because you pay your healthcare costs in the form of taxes does not mean they go away.

It does mean that for most people it would go down! But for many it will actually go up. It's based on income so the more you make the more you pay. EXACTLY LIKE MEDICARE!!!!
But if Medicare was expanded to everyone and tied to income it would be flush with cash.

Without bothering to Google anything I'll betcha a donut that our government operated healthcare service (Medicare, Medicaid, and Veterans health care) is larger already than the systems in place in most of those countries. The US is much much bigger than any of these other nations. The numbers are pretty mind boggling.

It can be done but it won't be easy. It'll take majority in the House, a supermajority in the Senate, and a willing president.

If the last two years are any indicator Republicans are set to deliver that to us in 2020.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#308710 - 09/29/18 09:27 AM Re: if the Dems take over [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
It all gets paid by somebody. For everything that goes through a normal health insurance policy, about 20% goes to the company as profit. If you nationalize it, Medicare allows 5% as overhead to those same companies to process payments. So we collectively would pay 15% less for every medical bill now covered by a normal policy.

That's the big picture. Of course there are a huge mess of subsidies, government grants to hospitals, CHIP, Medicaid, and so forth. Almost nobody paying what it actually costs, so there are a lot of toes to get stepped on. But costs would not go up.

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#308713 - 09/29/18 05:35 PM Re: if the Dems take over [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
You are determined on this one. However, you are also missing the entire point. The other nations, with single payer, also took over their ENTIRE healthcare industry, lock, stock, and barrel. This is why, for instance, you can goto Canada and buy your drugs at, basically, a 50% discount. Their drug companies are still able to make a REASONABLE profit but no more. Obamacare was headed towards this when it got beat up. Obamacare was also starting to control the curve. Obamacare also regulated the equipment manufacturers who are back on a full rape course.

Consider this, except for Switzerland there are no insurance companies involved. They go away, ALL of them. This is, basically, why Switzerland is at the cost top when it comes to existing healthcare for all countries. Then there are the medical 'bills' - that too goes away and the bills are just costs and those are strictly regulated.

Again, there is a reason why countries with single payer are actually spending, nationally, approximately half of what we are expending right now. Again, the United States government, right now, is spending, percentage wise against their GDP approximately as much as those countries with single payer. The trick, of course, is to use judgement when regulating. The left tends to go a bit overboard in that area.

We can argue this to exhaustion. I think, given what other countries are spending that we could, at least, make a run at it. Remember, our expected life expectancy is actually declining, right now due, we are told because of the failure of our health system. I would prefer living longer, not less, than, say, Canadians? The other stats on our healthcare are just as bad.

if you google "american healthcare against other nations" you will see a lot more of:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-healthcare-comparison-20170715-htmlstory.html
http://time.com/5197347/us-health-care-spending/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/physiciansf...g/#359d73a91232

Seems crazy not to try what works for other countries given the savings involved. I think our difference is that we are arguing about two different things. You are arguing based on keeping the same, overpriced and failing system. I am suggesting there just might be a better way based on current figures. This is, of course, based on my desire to live well for as long as possible and not live in a country that plays second fiddle to Canada (amongst others)

Oh, I feel the same about our drug policies which is also a trillion dollar mistake. Our really bad decision to get in the middle of the Muslim war that has gone on for over a thousand years! If we can fix those we would be saving another couple of trillion.

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#308717 - 09/29/18 08:14 PM Re: if the Dems take over [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The other nations, with single payer, also took over their ENTIRE healthcare industry, lock, stock, and barrel.

And all of them are socialist countries so that's really not a big deal there.
Here, it's a bit of a problem. It's raw and brazen socialism.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm in complete agreement with you on this. And it's going to happen eventually. But American voters are going to have to demand it. So far they haven't shown the courage.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#308723 - 09/30/18 06:22 PM Re: if the Dems take over [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Let me try again.
Socialism is an economic system all means of production are owned by a society as a whole (the state), meaning the value made belongs to everyone in that society, instead of a group of private owners. People who agree with this type of system are called socialists.

You are mixing up social services with "Socialism" which is a completely different thing! Our government, right now, and for a very long time, has services provided by government. Some of those would be fire departments, police departments, libraries, schools, etc. The simple fact is that the UK, France, Germany, etc. are not socialist countries. They are capitalist. The difference between the United States, and those nations is that they have seen fit to add healthcare to the aforementioned government supplied services.

I also think that the next election is going to reflect support for a universal healthcare. There are just too many people going banko because of the unalterated greed in this area (insurance loss, overcharging, decline in healthcare, rising prices, etc). There remains only one solution and that is to go the way of, basically, the rest of the world. When, for instance, have you heard one of our supposed leaders point out the difference between Healthcare and Police and Fire departments. They all serve the public and a for profit healthcare system is simply crazy from any standpoint I can think of and is, currently a tool of the greedy - nothing more and nothing less.

The real problem, I think, is that we really don't have any leaders willing to step up, carefully explain the options and costs, gather support and deal with our problems. I have, for instance, seen figures that show that money spent to fix infrastructure is well spent and returns multiples of expenditures to the nation yet we would rather use bandages than fix it. If we could somehow get rid of politics based on greed and start paying attention......... When was the last time you heard a so called leader ask why, if we support police and firemen through taxes why the same shouldn't apply to healthcare.

Instead it seems to me that we are allowing TV to rule our lives. I can think of any number of ways to deal with that one. If TV is taking on the mantle of advisor to the nation then, I think, there has to be a way to deal with that. How about forcing tv to assign each show to a classification; ie. speculation, fact, lies, fantasy and pure bullshit. (I know, not gonna happen <sigh>)

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#308726 - 09/30/18 07:54 PM Re: if the Dems take over [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
You are mixing up social services with "Socialism" which is a completely different thing!


No, I'm not mixing those things up. Republicans are. I'm trying to explain what a hurdle this is to get over.

Quote:
The simple fact is that the UK, France, Germany, etc. are not socialist countries. They are capitalist.


The economy of Germany is a "highly developed social market economy".
Quote:
The social market economy, also called Rhine capitalism, is a socioeconomic model combining a free market capitalist economic system alongside social policies that establish both fair competition within the market and a welfare state. It is sometimes classified as a coordinated market economy.

France
Quote:
Like many nations, the French economic system is mixed, containing capitalist and socialist elements. France has a diversified private sector that includes agricultural, industrial and service activities; however, the government intervenes actively in the French economy.

Blighty
Quote:
The United Kingdom is a western style democracy operating under a free market economic system. The UK has many similarities to the Social Democracies of the EU but in many ways the UK is economically more conservative.


More like the USA. But they still have the National Health Service.

What kind of economy does the US have?
Sometimes referred to as "pure capitalism" or "laissez-faire capitalism" it's really also a mixed system...
Quote:
The United States has a mixed economy. It works according to an economic system that features characteristics of both capitalism and socialism. A mixed economic system protects private property and allows a level of economic freedom in the use of capital, but also allows for governments to intervene in economic activities in order to achieve social aims and for the public good.
Link



Try to pry your mind from the belief in SOCIALISM as a monolithic form of government and try to realize that it's an economic system. Just as capitalism is. They actually go together very well.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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