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#308926 - 10/14/18 07:12 PM Voters
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2153
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
A couple of weeks ago we were watching the 6:00pm news from a Seattle station. One of the segments was on a state school district that had fallen on terrible times. Their infrastructure was close to collapse (buildings and schools), the district had a large increase in students, the teachers were underpaid, etc. It is, basically, a genuine mess with no help in view. The reporter went on to say that in the last school district vote 83% of the parents, of the children in the school district, DID NOT VOTE! Let me say that again EIGHTY (80) PERCENT OF THE PARENTS OF THE CHILDREN IN THE SCHOOL DISTRICT DID NOT VOTE!

I, personally, am for making voting mandatory. Australia did it and it helped. Anyway, this particular case, I think, points out just how responsible the American voting public is. This IS a case of utter, shameful, irresponsibility of the parents of these children! In the last general election, in Washington state, a whole 38% of the voters even bothered to vote. I consider not voting to be incredibly irresponsible by any measure I can think of.

To vote, in Washington state, one has the ballot mailed to them and then they can mail it back. The state picks up the cost of mailing so it costs absolutely nothing to be responsible and vote. The only real cost is time. Even if you don't actually vote then sending back a blank ballot also tells the politicians things. Then there are those who are not noted for voting regularly. The Poor and the Young (18 to 28) are two that come to mind. There is another fact that is connected to voting. If your group does not vote then your group gets screwed. That is simple fact. The politicians know who brung them to the party and those are the ones the politicians pay attention to. There is nothing secret about this and has to do with taking care of business to keep your job. That too is simple fact.

Right now we are approaching another election in less than a month. The main subject of the tv talking heads is, right now, who is going to vote for who/what. There are a pile of speculations (tv speculation is the fare of the day and actual news not so much). Then we have the election and then we find out which talking heads had it right. Historically they really don't have a great fortune telling record.

The simple fact (another one) is that the American voting public is lazy, incompetent, irresponsible and apparently ignorant as well. There used to be a meme that went something like; "You can trust the electorate to do the right thing". I am no longer convinced and doubt that the American voting public even has enough competence to vote in their own best interest. Another example on this one would be the supporters of the Jackass. It seems that the majority are either on Medicare or about to be. These people are going to be dependent on Medicare yet they are supporting a Jackass who is actually destroying Medicare! They, the true believers, however, just don't believe it. There is no secret, it was on the budget and in the "tax reduction" bill (100 billion out of medicare, every year, until its dead). Seems that the 1% needed that money more than the elderly. What is amazing is that the elderly actually vote regularly! What is not so amazing, but rather discouraging, is that, these days, the elderly no longer have the capacity to act in their own best interest. What is really discouraging is that they are not alone in that respect.

Anyway, you might want to give this a little thought. So, when the election results are in, and your every wish is not fulfilled, you will understand it a bit more.

I sincerely hope that my conclusions are utterly wrong.

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#308927 - 10/15/18 03:07 PM Re: Voters [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16296
Here's a simple fact: our system is controlled (mostly) by those who vote. (I say "mostly" because vote suppression/disenfranchisement works to counter that.) There are anti-democratic elements at play, but for the most part, we can overwhelm those elements. But, we need to do it soon, or the opportunity will pass. That's how dictatorships are born.

Like climate change, the signs are all around us, but the impetus to "do something" is not strong enough. We suffer through disaster after disaster, but, collectively, are complacent. My mantra has long been, "if you didn't vote, you can't complain." Unfortunately, that rarely prevents complaints.

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#308930 - 10/15/18 06:47 PM Re: Voters [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14364
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I sincerely hope that my conclusions are utterly wrong.


I hope the rest of your day goes as well as this part, because you are utterly wrong. grin

Blaming the young, the poor, the disillusioned and disenfranchised who choose not to vote for the outcomes of elections is a little like blaming the victims for the crime.

I don't know why people choose not to vote. But on the other hand sometimes I wonder why I even bother.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#308931 - 10/15/18 07:04 PM Re: Voters [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14364
Loc: Florida
Quote:
our system is controlled (mostly) by those who vote.

Pifflewink and poopoo. Our system is controlled(mostly) by the donor class.
"Those who vote" get a single yea or nay on a handful of people they know very little about every two years. The donor class is voting every day of the year with their wallets.

Oh, and they also control the propaganda machines that control the voters.

It has ever been thus and always will be.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#308932 - 10/15/18 07:42 PM Re: Voters [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2153
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
First, I was not blaming any specific groups as there others that also tend to not vote. If EVERYBODY agreed that there were only 2 solutions - right (Republicans) and left (Democrats) and they voted their druthers the Dems would win in a heartbeat as there are, simply, more of those. The reason for that is that the Republicans tend to clump together and are currently clumped in the extremist side of the right. That being the case the left/Democrats comprise more of the voting public than the right.

The simple truth is that Dems tend to not vote as consistently as the the Republicans. They would have, incidentally, won in 2016 if there was no electoral college. She lost, basically, because the Republicans out smarted the Dems and used their resources better.

My point, however, is that there are entire groups that tend not to vote and, if they had the capacity to actually turn out in their own best interest they would have a large say in how money is spent and who gets taken care of. That too is a simple fact.

As far as the donor class is concerned I don't believe they control anything but the propaganda machines, and the elected themselves and, while that is true, its also true that the elected, first and foremost, pay attention to them that voted for them first and the donor class that helped second. This happens because they want to keep their jobs and them that did the electing need to be coddled, deferred to and talked to on a regular basis. All the money in the world won't keep them employed if they don't do that.

Anyway, we have only a few more weeks and we will know what happened. My fond hope is that everybody votes, on both sides. If that happens the Dems win, if not, they lose. There seems to be no doubt that most of the Republicans are going to vote and the main question seems to be whether the Dems can get out their own voters. When I think about the snarky Dems who voted for Jackass because they were upset I get a little antsy about the chances of the Dems. While the Republicans are the ones who started the "my way and don't give and inch" I fear that the Dems have learned the lesson but not the solution as there are groups on the left who didn't get their way and voted for Jackass before. I don't think they have gone away or actually understand the facts. It dawns on me that there are folks on both sides that are just having a terrible time understanding how it works, what facts are, and actually much about the real world at all. The simple fact (another one) is that if somebody does not vote for the Dems they are, basically, voting for Jackass regardless of what they think. This is, basically, the problem in a nutshell?

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#308935 - 10/15/18 11:28 PM Re: Voters [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14364
Loc: Florida
Quote:
its also true that the elected, first and foremost, pay attention to them that voted for them first and the donor class that helped second.


Ummm...you actually believe that? Lets use Donald Trump as an example. What Has he done to help the voters who put him in office?
I'll wait while you compile a list.

For the Donor Class there were Trillion$ in tax cuts. Environmental regulations were rolled back so they could make more money. Banking regulations rolled back so they could make more money. Trade deals re-written so they could make more money....

I hear the poor folks have a great time at his rallies though.

Back to that crowd that doesn't vote, statistically their additional votes would contain the same number of Red voters to Blue voters. You'd get bigger numbers but the same result. I think you're seriously wrong in assuming they would all vote the way you want them to.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#308937 - 10/16/18 03:25 PM Re: Voters [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16296
According to Pew Surveys, Greger, demographics indicate that the higher the voting percentages, the more likely Democrats would win:
Quote:
Among those likely to once again stand on the sidelines on Nov.7: relatively large numbers of young people, Hispanics, and those with less education and lower incomes.

Whites continue to be disproportionally represented in the voting booth: 37% of whites are regular voters, compared with 29% of non-whites, including 31% of blacks and 24% of all Hispanics. Conversely, 40% of Hispanics and considerably smaller proportions of blacks (17%) and whites (20%) say they are not registered to vote.
Who Voted, Who Doesn't, and Why.

BTW, my point earlier was not that money in the campaigns doesn't influence voters -it clearly does, and needs to be curbed - but that voters still (presently) have the ability to control outcomes. Influence campaigns only work on the margins, mostly to suppress the votes and deceive voters. If people vote their conscience and pay attention to issues, they can overwhelm the suppression, gerrymandering, and other manipulation efforts. The problem is, they don't.

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#308938 - 10/16/18 04:04 PM Re: Voters [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1068
Money narrows the width and breadth of issues that we are allowed to discuss or vote on. Outcomes are defined by what is allowed to be discussed. The status quo gets maintained this way.

Or as Chomsky puts it:

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate."

May explain why nothing changes for most folks and why voting doesn't matter for a lot of em. Rich are gettin richer off the setup to be sure by limiting what's acceptable to argue about. Hell, we couldn't even give some of the most important politicians and their ideas a real hearing on this board if they were wearing the wrong banana sticker. The conditioning runs so deep within us consumers.


Edited by chunkstyle (10/16/18 04:05 PM)

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#308939 - 10/16/18 05:31 PM Re: Voters [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14364
Loc: Florida
Quote:
demographics indicate that the higher the voting percentages, the more likely Democrats would win:


Reality dictates that it all depends on which team riles up the non-voters the most. Rile up the rednecks and more rednecks vote. Rile up the POCs and more of them vote.

The media has been working the crowd into a frenzy.

I think Democrats were ahead in their GOTV efforts but the Kavanaugh Affair was a lightning bolt that drew the attention of the less likely to vote, conservative leaning crowd. Votes will be closer than they would have been if it hadn't happened at all. It's a good thing he was confirmed. They would have overwhelmed us if we'd won a round right before the election.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#308946 - 10/17/18 06:27 PM Re: Voters [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2153
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Trying to say that Jackass is representative of anything, other than himself, would be a huge mistake. After the last big Florida weather disaster he didn't even both to go down there for several days. When he did, however, his base was there waiting and making excuses for him. Saying that Jackass is anything but a jackass is an error in judgement.

As far as the donor class is concerned. There are the rich on both sides of the isle. The Dems, however, are not as eager to give away the store as are the Republicans. The reason is pretty simple on that one. They feel that their donor class ARE their voters as they are expert at getting idiots to vote against their own best interests and also controlling said virtually mindless idiots. In other words, they are supporting those they feel are responsible for their jobs and the actual voters are of no real interest. This can be fixed when corporations are no longer considered to be an individual and money is not speech. I am not even sure that an amendment is necessary. It would be interesting if the congress could write two laws saying that out loud and see what happens. If nothing else it would start a discussion.

Think of a congressman who had a weather disaster and didn't show up for several days because he/she was doing something else. I would predict, without hesitation, that he/she wouldn't be a congressman after his/her next election, especially if said politican was a Democrat.

A politician has to stroke his/her voters or he/she loses. Jackass doesn't stroke them so much as entertain them. I don't think his base is clever enough to realize that this isn't TV and WILL effect them in the end. When their medicare goes up in smoke they are going to have a really bad time finding anybody else to blame but their beloved leader and liar in chief.

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