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RoundTable for December 2018
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19 minutes 45 seconds ago
Justice is coming
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ICE - the new gestapo
by NW Ponderer
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What Left?
by pondering_it_all
Today at 01:44 AM
Another Solution
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Today at 01:10 AM
Archie Moore vs Yvon Durelle, December 10, 1958
by Greger
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Judge orders porn star Stormy Daniels to pay Trump $293,000 in attorneys' fees,
by pondering_it_all
12/12/18 09:51 PM
Election Day
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12/12/18 03:42 PM
The Passing Parade: Obituaries: 2018
by Golem
12/10/18 09:15 PM
Is it too soon to be talking 2020?
by chunkstyle
12/10/18 06:37 PM
Smart watches: Need Xmas Advice for Wifey
by rporter314
12/10/18 04:32 PM
None of the Above (NOTA)
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12/09/18 06:03 PM
Israel negotiating with Hungary on revisionist Holocaust museum
by pondering_it_all
12/07/18 11:22 PM
Brexit Eve
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12/04/18 04:26 PM
Miscellaneous humor thread
by Jeffery J. Haas
12/04/18 12:52 AM
Our political elders
by Greger
12/03/18 02:52 AM
Round table NOVEMBER 2018
by pondering_it_all
12/01/18 07:59 PM
Historic Corruption
by pondering_it_all
11/30/18 08:36 PM
Sleazy Slimeball or Slimy Sleazebag?
by Ujest Shurly
11/30/18 08:25 PM
2 million federal workers receive memo warning they can’t use the word ‘resist
by pondering_it_all
11/30/18 06:45 AM
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#309172 - 11/03/18 02:39 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14415
Loc: Florida
Bernie is our superspy who has been imbedded in congress for years. He's the chief engineer in charge of the leftward nudging apparatus.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309174 - 11/03/18 04:10 PM Re: What Left? [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: Greger
Bernie is our superspy who has been imbedded in congress for years. He's the chief engineer in charge of the leftward nudging apparatus.




Ummm...

Is that satire or are we role playing?

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#309177 - 11/03/18 05:14 PM Re: What Left? [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6566
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I think fundamentally every political side has the same broad goals (excluding the possibility Mr Trump is selling out America) of making America great and keeping it great, in whatever way you may think that means. The real difference between parties is implementation of policies to achieve those same goals.

Not all solutions are equal. I prefer pragmatic solutions regardless of who proposes them.

In reference to extremist driven agendas, I think everyone should propose ideas to allow the American electorate to discuss and decide where it wants to go.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#309178 - 11/03/18 06:10 PM Re: What Left? [Re: rporter314]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: rporter314
I think fundamentally every political side has the same broad goals (excluding the possibility Mr Trump is selling out America) of making America great and keeping it great, in whatever way you may think that means. The real difference between parties is implementation of policies to achieve those same goals.



I very much disagree with that Rporter. As the republican party moves further and further to the right the goals are becoming very much different.

As far as the idea of it taking a depression to get FDR's new deal legislation it's important to point out that FDR ran and got elected on an austerity platform.
FDR was moved to adopt left wing ideas on account of the pressure that was mounted on his administration from the left. Specifically the very important socialist and communist groups that existed at the time.
There is no left wing in politics today that can move any emergent FDR type, should one arrive, to the left. So long as we can't differentiate the rhetoric of the neoliberal new democrats from their right wing positioning it will be difficult to see where the pressure will come from to advance progressive policy.
I haven't seen it in my adult life time but I'm happy to be reminded.

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#309181 - 11/03/18 10:43 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14415
Loc: Florida
Quote:
FDR was moved to adopt left wing ideas on account of the pressure that was mounted on his administration from the left. Specifically the very important socialist and communist groups that existed at the time.

Indeed.
Quote:
"After his election in 1932, FDR met with Sidney Hillman and other labor leaders, many of them active Socialists with whom he had worked over the past decade or more. Hillman and his allies arrived with plans they wanted the new President to implement. Roosevelt told them: "I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me do it."


I would love to see a new Leftist Movement arise and gain sufficient power that they could demand change and actually get it. It's going to happen, it's already begun. But as much as I wanted to, I don't think I'll live to see it. You probably will, Chunk, you're younger and healthier than me. I think it's going to take most of a generation, about 30 years, to pull it off.
But it HAS begun. "Medicare For All" has become a thing. It isn't going to just go away. We're a few election cycles away from it being discussed on the floor of the house but I think it's inevitable.
Living wages are also just visible on the horizon and I expect something to be done about higher education soon.

If we accomplish those three things then I think The USA will have a chance at becoming great for the first time in its history.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309197 - 11/04/18 10:30 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8069
Loc: North San Diego County
There may not be much of an idealistic Left to drive us that way, but the forces of pragmatism may do much the same thing. There are a lot of people who want stuff that works and makes sense. If Medicare For All offers a much cheaper solution, it could happen. If enough people figure out income disparity wrecks the economy, we could reshape the tax system. If we realize we are falling behind the rest of the world, we could see free higher education for the qualified.

Most progressive goals actually are better than the conservative vision, and eventually the truth will out.

Just look at the current state of cannabis legalization! As more and more old white people discover it helps them, it becomes more and more legal. We've come miles from Anslinger telling Congress: "Marijuana makes Negroes think they are as good as White Men."

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#309200 - 11/05/18 02:19 AM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14415
Loc: Florida
Quote:
We've come miles


But we still desperately need the idealistic left to push the envelope because pragmatists are lazy.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309201 - 11/05/18 02:49 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
If we don't vote for progressives now then when?
If you can't tell progressive politics from neoliberal oligarchy then your a sucker thats been and will be played. Much like Obama played us. Clinton played us. His wife, had she been elected, would have played us.
The Neoliberals aren't pragmatists. They're doing there jobs and delivering the goods to their donors. Pragmatism might help you while you pick the dog turds off the lawn of the Palmolive fortune heir but it's not putting food on the table of average working people, PIA. It doesn't get you invited to some billionaires private island much less pay the debt collection firm that's calling nonstop.
The Great Pretender is just our current POTUS with better table manners. Have you heard about his Chicago property developement? I hear the buildings going to have top noch designers with exquisite taste and attention to detail. What a novel idea of getting around building codes and coopting public space. It appears he's now borrowing a page from Trumps book.
Obama's 'Neoliberal Heights' development


Edited by chunkstyle (11/05/18 02:50 AM)

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#309205 - 11/05/18 05:59 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8069
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
The Great Pretender is just our current POTUS with better table manners.


That's like equating National Socialists with Socialists.

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#309206 - 11/05/18 08:19 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14415
Loc: Florida
Quote:
If we don't vote for progressives now then when?


We always vote for progressives!

Any Democrat or Independent should always vote as far left as their ballot allows. Depending on your location and your ballot, that might be not be very far left, but you should vote anyway.

There are a lot of Democrats on that ballot who would love to have gone farther left than they have campaigned. Support them, they're on your side and it's an uphill battle to win as a progressive. In this post-truth era it's difficult to run just on the truth when your opponent is willing to lie, cheat, and extort his way into office.

What about third parties? If it's important to you, then by all means vote for them. And while you're in that booth, vote as far left as you can on all the downticket races too. And vote as far left as you can on all the issues, amendments, and initiatives.

We move the government left by getting out and voting left. There are more of us than them but their votes count more. I dunno about you, but I'd like this to mostly be a bloodless revolution....carried out in the poll booths rather than the streets.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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