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#309207 - 11/05/18 08:57 PM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
That's like equating National Socialists with Socialists.

Pretty much. But it's arguable in a lot of directions.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#309208 - 11/06/18 12:28 AM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
The Great Pretender is just our current POTUS with better table manners.


That's like equating National Socialists with Socialists.


Trump is pretending for his audience and playing the part.
So did Obama.

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#309209 - 11/06/18 01:32 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
Of course they "played their part", but Obama's part was a Constitutional Law Professor turned Senator and then President. Trumps part is a WWE character, con man, and game show host. The two men eat, breath, and sleep. Aside from those pretty much everything else is different. Just look at the quality of Trump's picks for agency heads. Obama never picked anyone to sabotage an agency because he has ethics. Trump doesn't know the meaning of the word.

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#309210 - 11/06/18 02:08 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Obama ran on hope and change with his experience as a community organizer for street cred. His theme of inequality being the defining challenge of our time was a center peice. There was some urgency of the now and other flourishy but vague language. I don't remember him running on his constitutional scholar bona fides. I'm not saying it wasn't mentioned but I don't think that's what the majority that voted for him were greatly concerned about.
No change, no change. I hear bankers are fond of him still.

Gregor,
I agree and if there are any candidates that are being supported by the major party plus a green or working family's party, please consider voting thru progressive third party as it helps them and forces the right wing management of the Democrats (if that's your preference) to take note.

Finally, perhaps theirs some cracks forming in this cemented over neoliberal monopoly in the Democratic Party. Politico has a peice out and it has two astonishing features:
1. A historical perspective of the Democratic Party when it was worth a damn.
2. It references FDR and Truman without planes dropping horribly from the sky.
Unbelievable!

The leftward lurch



Edited by chunkstyle (11/06/18 02:10 AM)

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#309211 - 11/06/18 03:28 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13419
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

Gregor,
I agree and if there are any candidates that are being supported by the major party plus a green or working family's party, please consider voting thru progressive third party as it helps them and forces the right wing management of the Democrats (if that's your preference) to take note.


I am sorry Chunk, but we saw the results of voting "purity pony" style in 2016, and the stakes are even higher now.
If you're drowning, you don't wait for a boat you like, you grab a life-ring and hang on until that better boat arrives.

We're not in a position to force the White Star Line to make the Titanic better, we're in the freezing water with minutes to live and the Titanic is going down.

Later, when we get back to shore, we can lay into the White Star Line and get justice. For now however, I am here to say that the old trope about how "voting for the lesser of two evils still brings evil" is incorrect.

Voting for the lesser of two evils brings - - LESS EVIL, and it weakens evil. Refusing to do so allows evil to gain an even bigger foothold. It is simple and pure mathematics.

We voted as far Left as we could, pushing out whatever corporate Dems we saw, but we did not and will not vote write-ins or third parties until there are enough of them to create a majority,
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309212 - 11/06/18 04:21 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
If your candidate is being endorsed by more than one party, vote for the candidate on the other ticket rather than the major party ticket. The candidate still receives your vote and it bolsters third parties.
Or stay with the two different style salsas.
That's all I'm sayin.

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#309213 - 11/06/18 04:24 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Your voting lesser of the two right wing parties has laid the foundations for our current crises.
But fine vote for more on the corporate ticket. It's your right at the moment. Though I don't see it as a solution to our current crises.
Third parties can bring the pressure on the two party system.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/06/18 04:30 AM)

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#309214 - 11/06/18 01:52 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
More people defected from Hillaries primary and voted for Romney than Sanders primary voters voting for Trump, Jeff.
That 'purity pony' trope has been used since her incompetent presidential campaign as a way to give her cover and distract from her losing campaign strategy.
Id suggest you drill down into that one to find what the historical numbers of defections to other parties, staying home, or leaving the choice of presidential candidate left blank.

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#309215 - 11/06/18 03:48 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Third parties can bring the pressure on the two party system.

In theory yes but the .05% who vote third party are generally ignored because they don't have the numbers to pressure anyone. Despite your hammering on the subject, I am still of the belief that the Democratic party is salvageable. It has to be because there is no viable third party on the horizon. There is, however, a rash of idealistic left leaning Democratic candidates looking to push out some righties in this election...and pull the Democratic Party left when they do.

The TEA Party was a brilliant example of how third parties work in our system. And the Green Party an example of how they fail.
The TEA Party worked within the Republican Party to change it by running against moderates in the primaries. It worked and we have Trump to show for it.
The Green Party set itself up as an alternative to the Democratic Party. It hasn't worked out. Even Bernie saw the value of working with Democrats rather than against them. He didn't get elected but his campaign in 2016 pretty much wrote the platform for progressive Democrats who will win today. And their victories will pave the way for future progressives to run and win.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#309218 - 11/06/18 04:51 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
FFS! What are you proposing to put pressure on the Dems Gregor? Voting for the right wing cuz it's the lessor of two evils?
The corporate wing is not going to reform itself without pressure from it's left flank. That pressure was applied, like your Tea Party comparison, from grass roots organizing on the left thanks, to a large extent, from the Sanders campaign. That's put a lot of candidates onto the ballots that didn't come from the right wing of the party. Hell, they're running candidates in areas where the corporate wing wrote off for years.
Rising third party poll numbers gives the corporate dems something to worry about. They have to take their issues seriously or risk losing their left flank during a republican challenge or (horror of horrors) they have their candidate primaried.
Y'all say you want change. Please explain how voting for the straight party line gives you that. How that brings pressure to bear on the 'ladders of opportunity' set. How does that bring the heat?


Edited by chunkstyle (11/06/18 05:00 PM)

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