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Round table NOVEMBER 2018
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Historic Corruption
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Sleazy Slimeball or Slimy Sleazebag?
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2 million federal workers receive memo warning they can’t use the word ‘resist
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#309627 - 11/30/18 07:48 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13409
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
The heartbreak was the Democratic Party and the Clinton campaign. At least sanders went back to work pushing for candidates and progressive proposals.
Your loyalty for labels over ideas is amusing Jeff. It's a shame the Democratic Party wasn't loyal to anything beyond its own self interest.
Red team blue team. It doesn't matter. They are both controlled by the same owners.
With democrats like these who needs republicans?



I grant you EVERYTHING, and I already HAVE "granted you everything" on a couple of occasions in the past, as you know.
The only thing I do not grant is your perception that I ascribe loyalty to labels.
No such thing.

If I am attempting to transmit a message over a two way radio, and the frequency I am on is too crowded, but I have access to an RF linear amplifier which will boost my output power to 150 watts instead of the usual five watts, you better believe I am going to connect the red and black wires on that linear amp, install a patch cord between the output of my radio and the input of the amp, turn it on and key the microphone and throw a blanket over the frequency and get through.

You want me to believe that if I stick by principles and quietly announce that I have the right to transmit at the regulation five watts, that the hundreds of other people on the channel will just part ways, clear the channel and let me talk.
It doesn't work that way.

Tell that to the people at Palomar.

_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309628 - 11/30/18 08:11 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
I couldn't disagree with you more NWP.
Obama's first act was to save banking. Buying into the neoliberal market order of saving the banks first in order to save yourselves. One look at the record of action on how he went about the crises should make it understood where he was coming from.

He was intelligent and charismatic much like Clinton and behaves like Clinton. Not an endorsement but and acknowledgement. His organization left much to be desired down ballot and left the democratic party in the a historic wipeout. "'Make america great again' is hope and change curdled."
WHen you say focus on achievable goals what you are saying is work within the narrow confines allowed under the current grift of donor money interest. THis is not anything new in american politics and change has never come from working within the forbidden city. Your talking about supporting institutional change and traditions. Those institutions are incapable of meeting the needs of most americans interests.
I will agree to put the tabasco where it's needed and likely to win. I don't look towards the entrenched institutional power to reform itself. When has it ever NWP?

Regarding Clinton salesmanship, does it ever occur to her supporters that voters just weren't buying what she was selling? Putin didn't invent racism and Bernie didn't exaggerate her in his criticisms. 250K for a half hour speech pal. It don't take a political genius to see where her loyalties were going to be. Skipping Union halls, making people pay for yard signs, the list goes on. It wasn't about her not selling her message effectively to the dirty and unwashed rural yokels. THey weren't buying and were Breaking for Sanders.

"There are liberal values in rural America, they just don't recognize them as such. (See teachers in Kentucky and Oklahoma.) They need to be taught"

Wow! Good luck with that attitude. The teachers of Kentucky and Oklahoma know what's needed. Clinton wasn't it. This might be a good time to remind anyone that the teacher's strike grew out of a traditional radical labor area of the country in West Virginia. They lead there with a populist movement and support from a populist state senator Richard Ojeda. Though he ran for a congressional seat and lost to his republican opponent, Carol Miller, he did make the largest gains in points than any other democratic congressional candidate while campaigning in the deepest red district in the country. Something to keep in mind and raises the question: "what's he selling that others aint?" Something to keep an eye on while centrist democrats run off to prostrate for money and moderate right wingers.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/30/18 08:12 PM)

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#309629 - 11/30/18 08:19 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8069
Loc: North San Diego County
"Driving with the parking brake on" is a great analogy. A lot of us love Bernie and his ideas. We just don't think much of his strategy to win. And you DO have to win to implement any changes. You can preach in the forest and the trees might agree with your positions and think very highly of you. Unfortunately, they don't vote so nothing comes of it.

We don't have a parliamentary system, so a Third Party affiliation is very unlikely to win much more than a House or Senate seat. The way to win the presidency, is to join one of the two parties and then rise up through the ranks. If you have stellar qualities, you will rise fast. You can have extreme ideas. Both parties have their extremists. Look at Rand Paul: Extreme libertarian, but he always runs (and wins) as a Republican.

You can't drive the Democratic Party to the left unless you are in the Party. Standing outside and criticizing it does very little.

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#309633 - 12/01/18 01:40 AM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
"Driving with the parking brake on" is a great analogy. A lot of us love Bernie and his ideas. We just don't think much of his strategy to win. And you DO have to win to implement any changes. You can preach in the forest and the trees might agree with your positions and think very highly of you. Unfortunately, they don't vote so nothing comes of it.

We don't have a parliamentary system, so a Third Party affiliation is very unlikely to win much more than a House or Senate seat. The way to win the presidency, is to join one of the two parties and then rise up through the ranks. If you have stellar qualities, you will rise fast. You can have extreme ideas. Both parties have their extremists. Look at Rand Paul: Extreme libertarian, but he always runs (and wins) as a Republican.

You can't drive the Democratic Party to the left unless you are in the Party. Standing outside and criticizing it does very little.


What are you even arguing besides the same knee jerk centrist norms and traditions appeal PIA? Last time I looked the center right was adopting the language of the left, notable in the recent mid-terms. I don't recall any candidate running on 'ladders of opportunity' and other neoliberal BS.
My hope is that the left is just getting started and over time kicks the 'Reagan Democrats' out of the party or at least relegate them to the wilderness of irrelevance.
If the Reagan democrats are in solid blue districts primary em'. Let them go back to their ancestral home of the Republican Party where they belong and let the socialist, unions and DSA begin the repair.
Thirdway centrism has failed the working and middle class by any and all measures.

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#309637 - 12/01/18 03:56 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8069
Loc: North San Diego County
Let's be purists and kick all those "Reagan Democrats" out of the Party so their constituents can vote for them as Republicans and we can lose. You seem to think making your Party smaller will help win elections. The problem with that idea is that those more conservative Democrats represent real people who agree with their positions. Send them across the chamber and their supporters mostly go with them. The country is more centrist than you think.

I say don't kick anybody out, and do let the socialists, unions, and DSA in. The Democratic Party needs their input. If they can convince the more conservative members with the quality of their ideas and proposals, then the Party moves left.

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#309638 - 12/01/18 06:02 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13409
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
"Driving with the parking brake on" is a great analogy. A lot of us love Bernie and his ideas. We just don't think much of his strategy to win. And you DO have to win to implement any changes. You can preach in the forest and the trees might agree with your positions and think very highly of you. Unfortunately, they don't vote so nothing comes of it.

We don't have a parliamentary system, so a Third Party affiliation is very unlikely to win much more than a House or Senate seat. The way to win the presidency, is to join one of the two parties and then rise up through the ranks. If you have stellar qualities, you will rise fast. You can have extreme ideas. Both parties have their extremists. Look at Rand Paul: Extreme libertarian, but he always runs (and wins) as a Republican.

You can't drive the Democratic Party to the left unless you are in the Party. Standing outside and criticizing it does very little.


What are you even arguing besides the same knee jerk centrist norms and traditions appeal PIA? Last time I looked the center right was adopting the language of the left, notable in the recent mid-terms. I don't recall any candidate running on 'ladders of opportunity' and other neoliberal BS.
My hope is that the left is just getting started and over time kicks the 'Reagan Democrats' out of the party or at least relegate them to the wilderness of irrelevance.
If the Reagan democrats are in solid blue districts primary em'. Let them go back to their ancestral home of the Republican Party where they belong and let the socialist, unions and DSA begin the repair.
Thirdway centrism has failed the working and middle class by any and all measures.




We are fighting an ARMY.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309639 - 12/01/18 06:11 AM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Let's be purists and kick all those "Reagan Democrats" out of the Party so their constituents can vote for them as Republicans and we can lose. You seem to think making your Party smaller will help win elections. The problem with that idea is that those more conservative Democrats represent real people who agree with their positions. Send them across the chamber and their supporters mostly go with them. The country is more centrist than you think.

I say don't kick anybody out, and do let the socialists, unions, and DSA in. The Democratic Party needs their input. If they can convince the more conservative members with the quality of their ideas and proposals, then the Party moves left.


Why do you think going left makes the party smaller? Time has proven trying to go republican light has already diminished the Democratic Party.
Frankly, the last time the Democratic Party was decades dominant it promoted more leftist positions.
Purity my arse. If there's democrats like that Crowley pig ignoring his district, that's solid blue, primary em'. Their type should have no problem running as republicans. Heck, we got plenty of rebadged republicans that ran as Democrats in this most recent midterm. The switch shouldn't be that difficult for those scabs. Scabs gotta go.
A democrat should understand that, PIA.

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#309640 - 12/01/18 06:20 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
'Let the unions in'

Nice!....


Edited by chunkstyle (12/01/18 06:21 AM)

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#309645 - 12/01/18 04:46 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16372
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Why do you think going left makes the party smaller?
Not what he said. What he said was, being a purist and purging moderates makes the party smaller. Additionally, you make claims that are ideological, but not supported empirically:

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Time has proven trying to go republican light has already diminished the Democratic Party.
Frankly, the last time the Democratic Party was decades dominant it promoted more leftist positions.
Diminished in size? Not true, the party has grown throughout the last 80 years. I think, my friend, you have a warped perception of the history of the Democratic party. I think that limits the ability to persuade. From an ideological perspective, the Democratic party has been moving left for decades, including during the Clinton terms. I happen to appreciate that shift.

Here's my gripe: if you don't pay attention to history, you can't understand how the Democratic party has matured over time, and how the attitudes of the populace (from which its membership draws) have affected its platform, and its ability to win in different parts of the country. Which makes your final argument not only nonsensical, but proves, explicitly, PIA's point:
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Purity my arse. If there's democrats like that Crowley pig ignoring his district, that's solid blue, primary em'. Their type should have no problem running as republicans. Heck, we got plenty of rebadged republicans that ran as Democrats in this most recent midterm. The switch shouldn't be that difficult for those scabs. Scabs gotta go.
A democrat should understand that, PIA.

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#309648 - 12/01/18 06:12 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Ahhhh now we get into it.
I'm not being a purist. I'm saying, as I always have, that the party needs to mobilize the base and go with bold proposals that have broad popular support. Centrism is opposed to that. It doesn't want to upset it's donor class. It's getting some tasty and lucrative incentives to quash any reasonable progressive agenda's. If there's scabs like Crowley that are standing in the way of leftist, progressive agenda Primary em'. That's not purity, that's self interest.
Corporate boy Crowley's EFF YOU!


The Democratic party floundered in the 70's and has been wandering in the Boomer centrist re-alignment since Reagan's landslide victory and re-election. Clinton, along with a new wave of 'New Democrats' came into power by triangulation. They persued policies promoted by corporate aligned think tanks such as 'Third Way' and turned their backs on traditional bases of support. Slicing off it's left flank of labor and civel rights preferring to go after suburban Reagan democrats.Is this an exaggeration NWP? Should I post up some Wiki? Some powell memorandum? Etc? Mebbe just Third Way then?
I recall going to Washington as a young teenager if the early eighties for an AFL-CIO convention. It was held at a Hilton Hotel convention center and must have had about 2000 shop stewards and union heads. A show of force to the coming showdown with Reagan and his administration. What the unions didn't see coming was the abandonement of the Democratic party by the new Third Way that was about to take over the Party, starting with Bill Clinton. Unions have never recovered their numbers from his time in office until today.
That strategy finally came to a head in 2016 with the corporately aligned Democratic presidential nominee. Ignoring that traditional base of support in the key battle ground states of Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin proved critical. Centrists logic always runs to blaming the other side of the aisle for their lack of success and they have done likewise with this election failure. Blaming Russian interference, Comey, etc rather than admit to an incoherent candidate coupled with a poorly run campaign persiung a mostly professional and gendered and sexual rights crowd.
You want to debate the rightward turn of the democratic leadership NWP? I'm happy to have that debate. You want Empirical evidence, I'm happy to accommodate you. Where would you like to start? Income Levels, suicide rates, opiate addiction, mass incarceration, State violence?

All the blather about declaring yourself Democrat and help the team win is so much fall in the line with the Third Way consensus. 'We'll reward you after you pay your dues'. I think that time should be over. That political velocity doesn't move fast enough nor is effective enough for some of the larger (hell, largest in human history) challenges facing us. Are you happy with Joe Manchin chairing the senate energy committee? Well he's a Democrat so there's that. Never mind the cpending climate hell scape that's a brewin, he's on team blue.


It's true that the country seems to be more progressively aligned. It's also true that more younger voters are declaring themselves independent. Not much love going on there.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/01/18 06:15 PM)

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