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#309649 - 12/01/18 06:24 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
By the way NWP, I have paid attention to politics and have pursued history my entire adult life. We may disagree on it's interpretations but that's not ignorance from one side or the other.

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#309651 - 12/01/18 07:32 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16381
I'm not saying you're ignorant of this history, chunk, I'm saying you're ignoring it. I don't like the tendency of pols of both parties, particularly Democrats, sucking up to corporate donors, but it is a reality of politics that money wins elections. It is true that the Democrats lost their way in the 70s and 80s, overreacting to Reagan's victory. But, blaming it all on the Democrats, and centrists in particular, is ignoring the realities of the times - and ours as well.

I use Wikipedia as a source here because it is available to everyone, and is curated, so tends to be a pretty neutral source for information. If you read through that history, you understand my point. Democrats in the early 20th Century were very different than Democrats in the 30s, and even more different to Democrats in the 60s. The party has gone through many transformations, but it has remained, since the advent of Teddy Roosevelt's Bull Moose Party, the party of progress. And that goes for all branches of the party.

Joe Manchin and Jon Tester are Democrats, and they are elected Democrats in States that are overwhelmingly conservative. Did you see Tester's speech at the 2016 convention? Tester was on Rachel Maddow the other night for "the Interview". If you watch that, he knows how Democrats can win in rural America, and that message should be listened to. Tester doesn't agree with all of the Democratic platform, but if he insisted on purity, his would be a Republican seat. Same with Manchin. Same with a half-dozen other Democratic Senators. The Democrats would not have the majority in the House without a goodly number of Democrats who just won seats in conservative States. Without the majority, nothing gets done.

That's why many of us, myself included, chafe at your pursuit of purity within the party - it is self-defeating. It's not that we don't hold many of the same beliefs and desires for reform, but, speaking just for myself, I don't believe your approach will keep majorities or win the White House. As I have said before, there is a formula that I think will win, and it happens to be the same three issues that Tester talked about with Rachel Maddow: Healthcare, Education and Infrastructure. That formula works in Rural, Suburban and Urban communities. Push those and I think Democrats will gain seats in both Houses in 2020, especially in rural areas.

I also think that you are ignoring the reality of the makeup of those Houses. The majority of seats are controlled by rural States. It is true in both the House and Senate, although worse in the Senate. In order to reach voters in those jurisdictions, one has to address their needs. They are more conservative than most Democrats, but if they can't be persuaded, they will remain a roadblock to progress.

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#309656 - 12/01/18 09:24 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13419
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle


All the blather about declaring yourself Democrat and help the team win is so much fall in the line with the Third Way consensus.


Again, you're resorting to the old "If you're not with us, you must be against us" nonsense and I object.
I'm not falling in line with Third Way anything at all.

Take that along with the stuff I reiterated earlier and try to grasp the notion that I simply recognize the fact that, in a football game, there's two teams, and there's no such thing as a rank insurgency from the cheerleader faction waltzing onto the field and interrupting the scrimmage and scoring a field goal.

It doesn't work that way and it never has.
Do we need a whole new coaching staff? Absolutely.
Do we need to fire the quarterback and come in with fresh players?
No question about it.

Do we need to sit down with the boys in the front office and prove to them that they're 0-34 in the last ten years and that we have the solution to their losing streak?

Yup.

And it's not going to be easy but it's the only way we're going to move the ball down the field and score some touchdowns.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309657 - 12/02/18 03:58 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Yeesh! Joe Manchin. Well I guess what your advocating. NWP, is something akin to going to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had. But c'mon, rilly? Joe Manchin?
Allright, lets look at him then.

Here's our tall talking Joe giving it straight up to the hillbilly's:

Admittedly 2010 but here's the man's more refined campaign pitch for defending Obamacares from his republican opponent in 2018:


So there you have it folks. You want to make your point to the hill poors just shoot something with a gun. I don't know if he won the state by shooting sh!t or he was helped by his opponent stepping on his own d!ck by announcing he would stop the teacher's strike 'by any means neccessary' if elected. This is west virginia. It may not mean much in some third belt subarb around ST. Louis but it means a hell of a lot in Mingo county. Hiss opponent was clearly an idiot. He also made matters worse by trying to take away the Obama care. That's a strange pitch to a mostly rural and poor community heavily benefiting from Medicaide expansion.

I do admire Manchin's grift though. He's got that native subtlety of ripping of his, mine and most likely your communities with his family grift. YA'LL REMEMBER EPIPENS!!!

You know, the company boosted the price 500%. I don't know how your community fire and ambulance does it but mine is required to be carrying epipens for allergic emergencies. Mylan, the company who makes the Epipen, justified the price hike for advertising and LOBBYING efforts to mandate that schoold have it made available for children. Because, you know, market world. It's notable that Manchin's Daughter, Bresch, is the sitting CEO during the price hike and there was a notable increase of over 600% in her pay raise when the price of the epipen was increased. But hey, this is a blue team member and we can't hold Sen Manchin at fault for the shady activities of his kid. Right? Amiright? We wouldn't do that with Trump now would we? Amiright?
So all in all, we got Joe Manchin who beat his opponent that was 1. Anti-union and 2. Anti-medicaide expansion. because he learned that a great way to talk to rural poors is to shoot some sh!t while his family engages in corporate corruption in executive boardrooms. That's your guy NWP? You liking some of that Kavenaugh?

You do remember Sanders pulling higher than Trump and crushing Hillary in W Virginia. I remember him shooting sh!t too.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/02/18 04:12 PM)

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#309658 - 12/02/18 04:02 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
I'm sorry Jeff but your analogies and metaphors have lost me. I'm not sure what your position is any more except that you seem to have been allright with the grift of the Hillary campaign during the primary as she was a 'real' democrat (could argue the point with you there but...) and you want party loyalty. If I'm wrong then please correct me but it might help me to understand you better without the analogies. I'm slow and it sounds like static to me.

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#309659 - 12/02/18 06:28 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Stubborn ain'cha, Chunks.

Point remains...we aint got the votes or the candidates to move any quicker to the left.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#309660 - 12/02/18 06:41 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
We have the votes out there on issues. Those issues are decidedly left in some cases. We have a political party that has maintained a center right centrist position. Much of that dominance has been by active thwarting of left candidates. No left candidates, no votes.

I'm maintaining the point that, until very recently there has been no left wing political representation and to call most members of the current Democratic party as being 'Left" is nonsense.

However, if you narrow the scope of conversation and issues to confine the meaning of whats 'left' then you can get away that kind of nonsense being 'left'.

I'm calling B.S. is all. Your not 'left' if you think renting your chicken coop to the elderly poors is a progressive left solution. Know your enemy.

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#309661 - 12/02/18 07:58 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16381
I sense a certain inconsistency, too. For someone against Manchin but for Ojeda, there seems to be a logical gap.
Quote:
Ojeda has stated "I don't think Iíve ever voted for a Democrat for president" and supported Donald Trump in 2016. He told Politico that he voted for Trump because he initially believed Trump would do something for West Virginians. By 2018, he expressed regret for voting for Trump, saying that "he hasn't done s***" and he is "taking care of the daggone people he's supposed to be getting rid of".

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#309664 - 12/02/18 08:45 PM Re: What Left? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I sense a certain inconsistency, too. For someone against Manchin but for Ojeda, there seems to be a logical gap.
Quote:
Ojeda has stated "I don't think Iíve ever voted for a Democrat for president" and supported Donald Trump in 2016. He told Politico that he voted for Trump because he initially believed Trump would do something for West Virginians. By 2018, he expressed regret for voting for Trump, saying that "he hasn't done s***" and he is "taking care of the daggone people he's supposed to be getting rid of".


?!
What's inconsistent. Coyness doesn't count if your trying to make a point.

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#309665 - 12/02/18 08:51 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Again - the left consists of them that believe that regulation can be a good thing and the right consists of them that believe that regulation is bad a takes the freedom away from people to make the right decisions. All that other stuff, socialism, religion, libertarian, liberal, conservative, etc gets done on BOTH SIDES! (left and right).

I have always thought it interesting that them, on both sides, will sometimes stray into what the other side considers theirs and nobody else's - just not true. Nixon, for instance, was in favor of equal rights, created the environmental protection agency, national health insurance, increased spending for the arts, etc. All of that yet nobody ever thought to call Nixon a lefty. Its kinda easy to do this with any of our leaders. Basically, there is the left and there is the right and then there are all them pesky distractions.

What is true is that the Democrats have claimed the left and the Republicans have claimed the right. Another interesting point is that, in spite of that, one of the founders of the Republican party was Abraham Lincoln who is, literally, adored by the Democrats.

My reason for this one is the title of this topic; "What Left?" I think that the question itself is not quite right, perhaps, if it was What Political Left it would have a little more validity but not much. I suspect, and do not mean to offend, that Chunkstyle is actually somebody who believes in Social Justice. I don't mean Socialism (which is a system wherein the state OWNS all production) I mean he believes that there are right things and wrong things and he is standing for what he considers the right which, when it all boils down, means that he is standing on the side of regulation/left. The problem with Regulation is, basically, that them that would regulate regularly go waaaaaaay too far (an example of that one was the approximately 20,000 pages of regulations in Obamacare gifted to us by the 'left') The right too has their little problems. One that I like is that Social Security takes the right of folks to make the right decision, for themselves, and set aside something for the 'golden' years. I can list what is wrong with this one but why bother. I do, however, actually have friends who utterly believe that one and I consider them to be part of the 'right'.

Just thought I would bring a bit of personal insight into this one.
Oh, not claiming that I am right in any sense of that word <G> Just saying...........

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