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#308941 - 10/17/18 05:01 PM What Left?
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
One of the galling references I keep hearing from people is how the left wing of the american political duopoly should be responding to this and that in todays super heated news coverage.
I'm calling bull to the notion that there is any traditional left wing in American politics today with the exception of Sanders.
The two major political parties have shape shifted over the years and have swapped loyalties but as far as I can tell there are only center right and extreme right wing parties now for a variety of reasons. Many politicians talk in the language of leftists but rarely has any meaningful action been taken on behalf of the left's historic goal of equality, fraternity and solidarity.
I believe the acceleration of the dismantlement of the new deal began with Clinton's administration and we are now within a stones throw of the ultimate goal of the right. The privatization of S.S. and Medicare.
But perhaps I'm all wrong about it or perhaps others have a different idea of what left wing politics are.
I would suggest Thomas Frank's analysis (among a great many others) to be a fairly accurate description of the democratic parties rightward drift here:
Rightward Ho!

I'm tired of the professional class hectoring voters to elect meaningless candidates that benefit mostly themselves and their class but little else. Give folks true left populists and it's my belief that elections would be very different.

But until then, at the very least, can we stop calling the democratic party left?

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#308945 - 10/17/18 06:13 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I think there is a bit of confusion in that "The Left" and "The Right" are not political parties. They do, however, reflect who believes that regulation can be good and who believes regulations are never good. They also reflect groups that are socially responsible and those that are not.

That being said the Republicans, right now, are starting up on 'dealing' with entitlements due to their vast national debt and 3/4 trillion dollar deficit (which Obama had gotten under control). This tends to make me think that, quite possibly, the republican party is not exactly socially responsible.

One of the problems, with both parties, is that they tend to go too far. This is why each side must talk and find common ground which also tends to deny anybody going too far. I believe this is the nut that must be cracked to get back on track and is the basis of our system.

The Dems, right now, are running on Healthcare and rights (women's, children's, voter, etc). Seems to me that, right now, they seem like a bunch of real lefties.

I think the main problem is that the Dems are being led, in large part, by people more than 70 years old. Last your the VA gave me a day long memory test. I went back to get the results a couple of days later. I was asked how I thought I did and I told him "poorly". He said that, actually, I was better than most others in my age group (80's) If this is true then having a political party being led by a bunch of elderly is, quite possibly, the worst idea around. I am basing this on my own memory problems as well as other, connected ones. The current Dem leaders are the same ones that moved slightly right of center in their need to win and they were wrong. They continue to be wrong but the party, as a whole, seems to be moving left of center with a will. My hope is that the current elderly management of the Dems step down and make room for some a bit younger. If they do that they will still have a voice, if they don't I expect them to get throwed out without any input whatsoever.

Just a thought...................

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#308949 - 10/17/18 09:05 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
When I think of 'Left Wing' I'm thinking of the historical social concepts stemming from the french revolution: equality, fraternity and solidarity.

Those concepts have been most politically supported by the democratic party thru much of the 19th and 20th, no?. Not always or evenly thru out the country but generally speaking. The south gets complicated. A distrust of banks, elites and the professional class and support of working class and labor as a traditional base has been, until Clinton, main characteristics of the party.
I've agreed with Franks history of analysis of the Democratic party, as well as Chomsky, Hedges, Zinn and Vidal. The party got into a crises in the 70's and lurched to the right in the panic of 3 presidential election defeats.
Today we have a political spectrum that is center right democrats always groping for a public/private solution to governing and a deaf ear towards Labor. Deep in the pocket of the FIRE economy and pandering to a preferred college educated professional credentialed republican voters in the vain attempt at peeling some off for narrow margin victories. Always coming up short and alienating more and more of their traditional working class base. A strategy that came up short in 2016.
I'm not sure who the Democratic party represents anymore as they are decidedly NOT interested in egalitarian causes. Adopting instead a 'merit' based system.
Their lack of solidarity with Labor was also on display in 2016 and the decades before. Nafta, card check, ignoring the rank and file while campaigning, etc...
Liberty? Think massive expansion of the prison system and the Clinton crime bill.
Equality? Inability to raise the minimum wage. Clintons repeal of Glass Steagal. Saving the banks while millions lost homes.

To be sure the republican party is now a party of racists and xenophobes. That's all they really have on tap to offer. Owning Libs by throwing revanchism in their face. I agree with Frank that the republicans have stolen the language of populism out from under democrats (And used effectively by Trump where it mattered). Nut why not? Democratic leaders have long forgotten it's meaning and why.

I don't think you can claim regulation as a litmus test for wether or not a political party is left or right, JGW. I'd argue that some decent regulation came out of Busch Sr.'s administration. Most notably after the S&L crises. (remember how they actually jailed white collar criminals then?). They didn't 'foam the runway' for them as Obama did. See the contradiction? The right can regulate and has done so in the past. It's not a valid argument to say that regulation belongs solely to a 'left' political party. Regulations often are done at the behest of monied interest to create barriers of entry to markets and reduce competition, etc..

I still say there is no left political wing in American politics currently though I hope that changes for the good of the country.

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#308951 - 10/17/18 10:14 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Oh, Chunky, you're running yourself ragged trying to decide where the middle is and for some reason you think it's a bad place to be.

The nation has divided itself into two factions.
For the sake of convenience let's call these two factions Right and Left.
Red Team and Blue Team, Conservatives and Liberals....Republicans and Democrats.

You seem pretty sure that there is a third team. There isn't.

Only two.

Yin and Yang.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#308954 - 10/17/18 10:53 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16381
One of the MOST interesting races I'm watching on Nov 6 will be Washington's 9th district. The candidates are Adam Smith and Sandra Smith. Adam is the incumbent, and a centrist Dem. Sandra (no relation) is a Democratic socialist. Smith v. Smith.

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#308956 - 10/18/18 03:24 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41066
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

I just watched the District 8 debate between Dino Rossi (R) and Kim Schrier (D). Kim's opening statement was about being a Pediatrician, taking care of her patients for 20 years, and the concern for the possibility that pre-existing conditions will be a thing again.

Rossi's opening statement was about being a grandson of a coal minor in Washington's Black Diamond mine, grand parents migrating to America, how he put himself through school and bought his first apartment building at the age of 25. Nothing about other people like Kim Schrier, it was "me, me, me, I, I, I" just like that other fake "self-made" idiot in the Oval Office.
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#308958 - 10/18/18 11:35 AM Re: What Left? [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16381
I was listening to NPR last night on the way home from a screening of Mr. Smith goes to Washington, and there was a discussion of the "hidden tribes" report that just came out from More in Common. The research indicated that policies are being driven by small minorities on the left and right - really small (8% on the left, 6% on the right) - that have outsize influence and do not represent the vast "exhausted majority" of the frustrated middle. Eye opening reading.

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#308959 - 10/18/18 01:18 PM Re: What Left? [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: Greger
Oh, Chunky, you're running yourself ragged trying to decide where the middle is and for some reason you think it's a bad place to be.

The nation has divided itself into two factions.
For the sake of convenience let's call these two factions Right and Left.
Red Team and Blue Team, Conservatives and Liberals....Republicans and Democrats.

You seem pretty sure that there is a third team. There isn't.

Only two.

Yin and Yang.





I've never said there was a third team Gregor. In fact, I've started this thread to argue the idea that there is only one party with two factions.
It might have been clumsy but my argument was based on defining the traditional ideals of the left, tracing it's lineage to the French Revolution, and contrasting that with today's Democratic Party that is often associated with 'the left'.
That's a false perception.
The Democratic Party of today is more of a center right party that your Eisenhower republican would be comfortable in than any FDR democrat.
To call it 'left' is a sham narrative meant to illicit votes from an ever shrinking pool of voters.
The center is firmly in the right political spectrum. You may be comfortable with that but I'm not. Many reasons why I'm not. One of them being the imposed austerity and deindustrialization that began under Clinton and has led to our current POTUS.
I understand if your happy with the current Democratic Party alignment. I'm merely asking to stop calling it representative of left wing ideology or policy.
Or argue that it is, if you can. Metaphors don't count.

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#308961 - 10/18/18 03:44 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
For me, the money shot of the Video in my initial post starts at 17:50. Franks unflinching assessment of Clinton and Obama's fealty to wall street is not your daddies democratic party. To some this may be a good thing. To others, not so much. It in no way represents left wing politics as traditionally defined.

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#308962 - 10/18/18 04:53 PM Re: What Left? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I was listening to NPR last night on the way home from a screening of Mr. Smith goes to Washington, and there was a discussion of the "hidden tribes" report that just came out from More in Common. The research indicated that policies are being driven by small minorities on the left and right - really small (8% on the left, 6% on the right) - that have outsize influence and do not represent the vast "exhausted majority" of the frustrated middle. Eye opening reading.




PIE CHARTS INCOMING!!!!!
grin

Pardon my skepticism, NWP, but I'm exhausted reading studies from smart people to help explain to other smart people what time it is.....

I roamed around their web site and found the group to be a basket of professionals with pedigreed resumes.

My biggest complaint is how this does nothing more than prop up a status quo ideology that is crumbling and wants to explain it away by tribal identity. Lots of "we've identified" and "We've determines".

It reminds me of the well heeled micro targeting echo chamber Hillary campaign of 2016....

For a different take:
Phoney tribe theory



Edited by chunkstyle (10/18/18 04:59 PM)

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#308963 - 10/18/18 06:01 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I've never said there was a third team Gregor. In fact, I've started this thread to argue the idea that there is only one party with two factions.


There are two factions. You can label them with the same banana sticker banana sticker if you want, they're all lying sacks of sh*t, but there are two factions. When you walk into the House of Representatives or the Senate and walk down the center aisle on your right will be the Republicans. On your left will be the Democrats.
Coincidence? Maybe.

Quote:
The left–right political spectrum is a system of classifying political positions, ideologies and parties, from equality on the left to social hierarchy on the right. Left-wing politics and right-wing politics are often presented as opposed, although a particular individual or group may take a left-wing stance on one matter and a right-wing stance on another; and some stances may overlap and be considered either left- or right-wing depending on the ideology. In France, where the terms originated, the Left has been called "the party of movement" and the Right "the party of order". The intermediate stance is called centrism and a person with such a position is a moderate or centrist.


I see your point that we have two "Parties of Order", but the Democratic Party is still the "Party of Movement" towards equality. I'm just thinking that the farther left on the spectrum you are then the faster you want to movement to be.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#308966 - 10/18/18 06:22 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
I agree Gregor. There are two factions of the right. One faction serves the professional, credentialed class. The other serves the high net worth income individuals, religious zealots and racists.

I would disagree with your statement that the Democratic party is still the party of movement towards equality, except with sexual orientation issues. Economic inequality, the promotion of meritocracy, and the abandonment of Labor rights are all Hallmarks of the center right political orientation of the democratic party.

There is no left wing political party being seated anywhere in congress with the exception of Sanders chair in the Senate.


Edited by chunkstyle (10/18/18 06:23 PM)

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#308967 - 10/18/18 06:29 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
I'm watching the Ojeeda run in the reddest of the red district in the country with fascination since they tried to take him out with brass knuckles, NWP.

The DSA member running against a progressive is interesting but this scrap going on in Appalacian coal country is worth watching too:
Ojeeda takin a run at it...


Edited by chunkstyle (10/18/18 06:32 PM)

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#308971 - 10/19/18 03:18 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
There is no left wing political party being seated anywhere in congress with the exception of Sanders chair in the Senate.

And there isn't going to be. But the Democrats can be nudged left sometimes.

Those are the parameters we have to work within.

It's never been easy for the left. Just ask Fidel or Che.
That's not how it was supposed to turn out.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309140 - 10/31/18 03:12 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
I had to think awhile before responding to your statement Gregor.
On the surface it sounds simple enough.
It very clearly reflects the attitude of the establishment right wing Democratic Party. Narrowing the scope and range of possibilities for politics to provide real change to the sharing of resources and reducing the suffering of ordinary Americans all the while enriching its donor class. It reminds me of Thatcher's 'there is no alternative' speech for pushing neoliberal doctrination on her citizens. A foreclosure of possibility.
I don't know where the idea comes from but it is shared by a good deal of people. In an odd way it seems to be a congenital blind spot for neoliberalism. It was beaten by it's very opposite political challenge from the ultra right. They have embarked on the decades long political project of pushing neoliberalism forward to its next step: Facism.
That tantilizing idea has been finally realized with the unforeseen insurgent Trump. He managed to capture the darker imagination of what's possible by using a mixture of stolen left ideas, xenophobia and racism.
His polar opposite, Corbyn, ignited the imagination of what's possible and won a tremendous victory.
On either side of this presupposed, narrowed range of imagination are victories of the exact opposite of what your sentiment supposes. A perpetual running game when it's apparent that the field is wide open for a pass.
I understand the right wing grift of Neoliberals that are in the game. It's where the money is and it's thier job to con the left into voting for them.
It's the voters who keep insisting on the running game as the only one that we can and should expect that has baffled me.
Your wrong about a left wing not getting seated. It will be small but it's a start. May be to late but after massacre at the Tree of Life synagogue, [censored] the running game. Start throwing some long bombs down the field.
The right is very much getting what it wants. Neoliberalism is a con.







Edited by chunkstyle (10/31/18 03:21 AM)

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#309142 - 10/31/18 11:08 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
A good example of the co-option of the left by the right wingers going on in California. It's the same con that's worked from Clinton to Obama.
Find some one with some progressive street cred from once upon a time in their early life, show them the money and possibility of generational wealth, once loyalty is confirmed, send them out and run them against a true progressive left candidate.
Everyone's complaining about the fraud and grift of trump. Crickets to the charade being repeated in the right wing Democratic Party.
I'll go on the record that the high salaried young tech YIMBY workers that the right wing candidate in this race is courting will go libertarian, once they've made their nut, and flatter themselves with a phony self determination success story and finally go full blown Nazi in later mid-life. All their horrible ideas and self regard will be represented by a democrat who's task it will be to deliver the bacon to them and theirs while managing lowered expectations for the rest.
I realize though that we may not have a chance to realize that outcome.

Progressive vs right wing conservative


Edited by chunkstyle (10/31/18 11:36 AM)

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#309158 - 11/01/18 09:32 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
So what are you trying to tell me? That the left actually has a chance
because a few will be elected this year? Keep an eye on them and you'll see just how quickly they are forced towards the middle. They'll be collared, leashed, and trained to stay in their place. Maybe they'll team up with Bernie to write bills that will be ignored.

Fidel went full authoritarian, Che was killed for his trouble.

I used to be an adventurer like you, but then I took an arrow in the knee.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309159 - 11/02/18 02:42 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Wether the freshman left sniffs the air and wanders off to where the money is remains to be seen. I'm sure some will. The rest of the Democratic Party has done that so, yeah, it's probable a few will.
The point was, since Bill Clinton, the right wing of the Democratic Party has gone for the money. In return they have used the language of the left but have carried out policies and objectives of the right. That's not hyperbole, simply historical record.
Supporting the very institution that has brought about the conditions of facism is some kind of something. I'm not sure what. Especially when there's an alternative.
My guess is it will have to get much worse and far more dangerous before a real left populist movement can get a shot. Were going to relearn some very hard stuff with nukes and looming environmental catastrophe thrown in for fun.

I guess until then, there is not alternative.

I've beat this to death and will shut up now.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/02/18 02:49 AM)

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#309166 - 11/02/18 08:14 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
My guess is it will have to get much worse and far more dangerous before a real left populist movement can get a shot.


YES! The scales have finally fallen from your eyes! It took The Great Depression to create the circumstances that made FDR's New Deal possible. Until this Trumpian Dystopia unravels all we can hope for is to nudge the Democratic Party to the left.

I don't say this because I'm a Centrist or that I support centrist views. I say it because it's a goddam fact whether you and I like it or not. New job and wage reports are out...More new jobs than predicted, wages have gone up. Trumpism appears to be working.

Like everything else Trumpian it's a lie and it's temporary. But it's not an environment conducive to important leftward change. We continue to give the Republicans all the rope they need to hang themselves(they will) and we continue to nudge the Democrats leftward in tiny increments.

The proles might have the numbers but the bourgeoisie have the power. We can send in spies and agents to work from within but we simply don't have the power or the public motivation to wrest the wheel from the madmen steering us towards disaster. And yes, the madmen are wearing both red and blue caps...but the guys in blue are at least sympathetic to the cause.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309169 - 11/02/18 11:41 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
No stars falling here.
If you recall, I never supported the neoliberal center right candidate for the democratic presidential nomination. If I want progressive left wing policies I vote for them.

As far as Sanders is concerned, for someone so ignored he seems to have raised a lot of issues being campaigned on by progressive candidates in the mid terms.

He does his dance in roll call amendments and thru reconciliation rules.



Edited by chunkstyle (11/02/18 11:43 PM)

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#309172 - 11/03/18 02:39 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Bernie is our superspy who has been imbedded in congress for years. He's the chief engineer in charge of the leftward nudging apparatus.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309174 - 11/03/18 04:10 PM Re: What Left? [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: Greger
Bernie is our superspy who has been imbedded in congress for years. He's the chief engineer in charge of the leftward nudging apparatus.




Ummm...

Is that satire or are we role playing?

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#309177 - 11/03/18 05:14 PM Re: What Left? [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6568
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I think fundamentally every political side has the same broad goals (excluding the possibility Mr Trump is selling out America) of making America great and keeping it great, in whatever way you may think that means. The real difference between parties is implementation of policies to achieve those same goals.

Not all solutions are equal. I prefer pragmatic solutions regardless of who proposes them.

In reference to extremist driven agendas, I think everyone should propose ideas to allow the American electorate to discuss and decide where it wants to go.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#309178 - 11/03/18 06:10 PM Re: What Left? [Re: rporter314]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: rporter314
I think fundamentally every political side has the same broad goals (excluding the possibility Mr Trump is selling out America) of making America great and keeping it great, in whatever way you may think that means. The real difference between parties is implementation of policies to achieve those same goals.



I very much disagree with that Rporter. As the republican party moves further and further to the right the goals are becoming very much different.

As far as the idea of it taking a depression to get FDR's new deal legislation it's important to point out that FDR ran and got elected on an austerity platform.
FDR was moved to adopt left wing ideas on account of the pressure that was mounted on his administration from the left. Specifically the very important socialist and communist groups that existed at the time.
There is no left wing in politics today that can move any emergent FDR type, should one arrive, to the left. So long as we can't differentiate the rhetoric of the neoliberal new democrats from their right wing positioning it will be difficult to see where the pressure will come from to advance progressive policy.
I haven't seen it in my adult life time but I'm happy to be reminded.

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#309181 - 11/03/18 10:43 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
FDR was moved to adopt left wing ideas on account of the pressure that was mounted on his administration from the left. Specifically the very important socialist and communist groups that existed at the time.

Indeed.
Quote:
"After his election in 1932, FDR met with Sidney Hillman and other labor leaders, many of them active Socialists with whom he had worked over the past decade or more. Hillman and his allies arrived with plans they wanted the new President to implement. Roosevelt told them: "I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me do it."


I would love to see a new Leftist Movement arise and gain sufficient power that they could demand change and actually get it. It's going to happen, it's already begun. But as much as I wanted to, I don't think I'll live to see it. You probably will, Chunk, you're younger and healthier than me. I think it's going to take most of a generation, about 30 years, to pull it off.
But it HAS begun. "Medicare For All" has become a thing. It isn't going to just go away. We're a few election cycles away from it being discussed on the floor of the house but I think it's inevitable.
Living wages are also just visible on the horizon and I expect something to be done about higher education soon.

If we accomplish those three things then I think The USA will have a chance at becoming great for the first time in its history.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309197 - 11/04/18 10:30 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
There may not be much of an idealistic Left to drive us that way, but the forces of pragmatism may do much the same thing. There are a lot of people who want stuff that works and makes sense. If Medicare For All offers a much cheaper solution, it could happen. If enough people figure out income disparity wrecks the economy, we could reshape the tax system. If we realize we are falling behind the rest of the world, we could see free higher education for the qualified.

Most progressive goals actually are better than the conservative vision, and eventually the truth will out.

Just look at the current state of cannabis legalization! As more and more old white people discover it helps them, it becomes more and more legal. We've come miles from Anslinger telling Congress: "Marijuana makes Negroes think they are as good as White Men."

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#309200 - 11/05/18 02:19 AM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
We've come miles


But we still desperately need the idealistic left to push the envelope because pragmatists are lazy.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309201 - 11/05/18 02:49 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
If we don't vote for progressives now then when?
If you can't tell progressive politics from neoliberal oligarchy then your a sucker thats been and will be played. Much like Obama played us. Clinton played us. His wife, had she been elected, would have played us.
The Neoliberals aren't pragmatists. They're doing there jobs and delivering the goods to their donors. Pragmatism might help you while you pick the dog turds off the lawn of the Palmolive fortune heir but it's not putting food on the table of average working people, PIA. It doesn't get you invited to some billionaires private island much less pay the debt collection firm that's calling nonstop.
The Great Pretender is just our current POTUS with better table manners. Have you heard about his Chicago property developement? I hear the buildings going to have top noch designers with exquisite taste and attention to detail. What a novel idea of getting around building codes and coopting public space. It appears he's now borrowing a page from Trumps book.
Obama's 'Neoliberal Heights' development


Edited by chunkstyle (11/05/18 02:50 AM)

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#309205 - 11/05/18 05:59 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
The Great Pretender is just our current POTUS with better table manners.


That's like equating National Socialists with Socialists.

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#309206 - 11/05/18 08:19 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
If we don't vote for progressives now then when?


We always vote for progressives!

Any Democrat or Independent should always vote as far left as their ballot allows. Depending on your location and your ballot, that might be not be very far left, but you should vote anyway.

There are a lot of Democrats on that ballot who would love to have gone farther left than they have campaigned. Support them, they're on your side and it's an uphill battle to win as a progressive. In this post-truth era it's difficult to run just on the truth when your opponent is willing to lie, cheat, and extort his way into office.

What about third parties? If it's important to you, then by all means vote for them. And while you're in that booth, vote as far left as you can on all the downticket races too. And vote as far left as you can on all the issues, amendments, and initiatives.

We move the government left by getting out and voting left. There are more of us than them but their votes count more. I dunno about you, but I'd like this to mostly be a bloodless revolution....carried out in the poll booths rather than the streets.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309207 - 11/05/18 08:57 PM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
That's like equating National Socialists with Socialists.

Pretty much. But it's arguable in a lot of directions.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309208 - 11/06/18 12:28 AM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
The Great Pretender is just our current POTUS with better table manners.


That's like equating National Socialists with Socialists.


Trump is pretending for his audience and playing the part.
So did Obama.

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#309209 - 11/06/18 01:32 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
Of course they "played their part", but Obama's part was a Constitutional Law Professor turned Senator and then President. Trumps part is a WWE character, con man, and game show host. The two men eat, breath, and sleep. Aside from those pretty much everything else is different. Just look at the quality of Trump's picks for agency heads. Obama never picked anyone to sabotage an agency because he has ethics. Trump doesn't know the meaning of the word.

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#309210 - 11/06/18 02:08 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Obama ran on hope and change with his experience as a community organizer for street cred. His theme of inequality being the defining challenge of our time was a center peice. There was some urgency of the now and other flourishy but vague language. I don't remember him running on his constitutional scholar bona fides. I'm not saying it wasn't mentioned but I don't think that's what the majority that voted for him were greatly concerned about.
No change, no change. I hear bankers are fond of him still.

Gregor,
I agree and if there are any candidates that are being supported by the major party plus a green or working family's party, please consider voting thru progressive third party as it helps them and forces the right wing management of the Democrats (if that's your preference) to take note.

Finally, perhaps theirs some cracks forming in this cemented over neoliberal monopoly in the Democratic Party. Politico has a peice out and it has two astonishing features:
1. A historical perspective of the Democratic Party when it was worth a damn.
2. It references FDR and Truman without planes dropping horribly from the sky.
Unbelievable!

The leftward lurch



Edited by chunkstyle (11/06/18 02:10 AM)

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#309211 - 11/06/18 03:28 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13419
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

Gregor,
I agree and if there are any candidates that are being supported by the major party plus a green or working family's party, please consider voting thru progressive third party as it helps them and forces the right wing management of the Democrats (if that's your preference) to take note.


I am sorry Chunk, but we saw the results of voting "purity pony" style in 2016, and the stakes are even higher now.
If you're drowning, you don't wait for a boat you like, you grab a life-ring and hang on until that better boat arrives.

We're not in a position to force the White Star Line to make the Titanic better, we're in the freezing water with minutes to live and the Titanic is going down.

Later, when we get back to shore, we can lay into the White Star Line and get justice. For now however, I am here to say that the old trope about how "voting for the lesser of two evils still brings evil" is incorrect.

Voting for the lesser of two evils brings - - LESS EVIL, and it weakens evil. Refusing to do so allows evil to gain an even bigger foothold. It is simple and pure mathematics.

We voted as far Left as we could, pushing out whatever corporate Dems we saw, but we did not and will not vote write-ins or third parties until there are enough of them to create a majority,
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309212 - 11/06/18 04:21 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
If your candidate is being endorsed by more than one party, vote for the candidate on the other ticket rather than the major party ticket. The candidate still receives your vote and it bolsters third parties.
Or stay with the two different style salsas.
That's all I'm sayin.

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#309213 - 11/06/18 04:24 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Your voting lesser of the two right wing parties has laid the foundations for our current crises.
But fine vote for more on the corporate ticket. It's your right at the moment. Though I don't see it as a solution to our current crises.
Third parties can bring the pressure on the two party system.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/06/18 04:30 AM)

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#309214 - 11/06/18 01:52 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
More people defected from Hillaries primary and voted for Romney than Sanders primary voters voting for Trump, Jeff.
That 'purity pony' trope has been used since her incompetent presidential campaign as a way to give her cover and distract from her losing campaign strategy.
Id suggest you drill down into that one to find what the historical numbers of defections to other parties, staying home, or leaving the choice of presidential candidate left blank.

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#309215 - 11/06/18 03:48 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Third parties can bring the pressure on the two party system.

In theory yes but the .05% who vote third party are generally ignored because they don't have the numbers to pressure anyone. Despite your hammering on the subject, I am still of the belief that the Democratic party is salvageable. It has to be because there is no viable third party on the horizon. There is, however, a rash of idealistic left leaning Democratic candidates looking to push out some righties in this election...and pull the Democratic Party left when they do.

The TEA Party was a brilliant example of how third parties work in our system. And the Green Party an example of how they fail.
The TEA Party worked within the Republican Party to change it by running against moderates in the primaries. It worked and we have Trump to show for it.
The Green Party set itself up as an alternative to the Democratic Party. It hasn't worked out. Even Bernie saw the value of working with Democrats rather than against them. He didn't get elected but his campaign in 2016 pretty much wrote the platform for progressive Democrats who will win today. And their victories will pave the way for future progressives to run and win.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309218 - 11/06/18 04:51 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
FFS! What are you proposing to put pressure on the Dems Gregor? Voting for the right wing cuz it's the lessor of two evils?
The corporate wing is not going to reform itself without pressure from it's left flank. That pressure was applied, like your Tea Party comparison, from grass roots organizing on the left thanks, to a large extent, from the Sanders campaign. That's put a lot of candidates onto the ballots that didn't come from the right wing of the party. Hell, they're running candidates in areas where the corporate wing wrote off for years.
Rising third party poll numbers gives the corporate dems something to worry about. They have to take their issues seriously or risk losing their left flank during a republican challenge or (horror of horrors) they have their candidate primaried.
Y'all say you want change. Please explain how voting for the straight party line gives you that. How that brings pressure to bear on the 'ladders of opportunity' set. How does that bring the heat?


Edited by chunkstyle (11/06/18 05:00 PM)

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#309222 - 11/06/18 07:18 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
A country run along Scandanavian-style socialist principles would be great. But a country run by corporate Democrats would still be a lot better than a country run by insane Fascists.

Today is simple: Good versus evil. Once we're back to good, we can work on better. If too many people vote for better, good loses to evil. Simple math.

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#309225 - 11/06/18 08:17 PM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Today is simple: Good versus evil. Once we're back to good, we can work on better. If too many people vote for better, good loses to evil. Simple math.


And that is exactly the way I see it. It's a two party system and there's no way to wedge a third in. Simple answer is to take over one of the parties from within. The corporate overlords are resisting it but it's still the weakest point in their defenses.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309228 - 11/06/18 09:10 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
If you circle in the ballot for Gillum on the Working Families Party line instead of the Democratic line he's still a democrat Gregor. He doesn't change who he is or what he's running on. It merely means that WFP was able to deliver X amount of votes to the democratic candidate. If it's a significant number Gillum will have to keep their interest in mind.
Or you can vote on the straight right wing Goldman Sachs ticket and see how well that works out.
Oh wait we already have.

I'm not interested in Scandanavia or apocalyptic comparisons PIA. I'm merely interested in advancing progressive causes. Applying pressure where ever possible.

Crickets for the question of how straight party line voting advances progressive causes?
Ya can't even get a minimum pay raise passed from that set.

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#309230 - 11/06/18 09:35 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
If you circle in the ballot for Gillum on the Working Families Party line instead of the Democratic line he's still a democrat Gregor.

I didn't see that option on my ballot. Gillum only appeared on one line. Perhaps that was somewhere in the fine print and I missed it.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309231 - 11/06/18 09:44 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Crickets for the question of how straight party line voting advances progressive causes?
Ya can't even get a minimum pay raise passed from that set.


If progressive causes want to advance themselves they better get candidates running as Democrats.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309232 - 11/06/18 09:48 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Fine vote there then. Should a progressive party get on the ballot in the future in Florida you could consider circling in on their line for the same candidate.
Here in New York there are nine parties with the main two right wing parties candidates appearing on multiple lines. (The two right wing parties being the Democratic and Republican parties)
Governor Cuomo is listed on Democratic ticket, WFP and Independant. Those are three choices I have should I want to vote on for that candidate.
Similar situation for the ultra right Republican challenger.
Your vote still gets counted for the candidate even if you vote thru a third party.
Up here, Democratic and WPA are usually identical with some crossover with independant and Green. Likewise with Republican, Conservative and Libertarian parties.
It ain't much but it least it lets em know where their votes are coming from.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/06/18 09:56 PM)

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#309233 - 11/06/18 09:53 PM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all


Today is simple: Good versus evil. Once we're back to good, we can work on better. If too many people vote for better, good loses to evil. Simple math.


A perfect description of the last 30 years of neoliberal centrist rational to the voters. Well said.

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#309242 - 11/07/18 02:07 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
Sorry, I misunderstood you. I've never seen ballots with multiple parties running the same candidate. New York must be a lot more "parliamentary" than California. Sure, if that was the case, then voting for the Democrat via the Greens or whatever would be fine.

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#309265 - 11/07/18 05:15 PM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Welp...I'm going back to the premise of the Original Post...

What left?

They certainly didn't come out of the woodwork to support the left leaning candidates. My conclusion has to be that they simply don't exist either as a revolutionary force or even a dependable voting block.
It is up to corporate centrists to save the day while the avant garde, the modern day Bohemians, sit in the coffee shops and wine bars and commiserate over their unfortunate circumstances on social media.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309267 - 11/07/18 06:04 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Not sure I agree with the conclusion of the election results, Gregor.
It has been a grab bag of centrists, leftists and right wing democrats all winning and losing about the same.
Beto, Gillum, Ojeda etc represented degrees on the right/left spectrum. All lost.
We got DSA candidates in office up and down the ticket. The centrist running in my district got hammered,for good reasons, running a resume campaign much like Clinton.
It took 35 years for the neoliberal project to vanquish the new deal. My guess is that the DNC will become more reflexive and shrill demanding a move move to the center (further right).

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#309273 - 11/07/18 11:25 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
My guess is that the DNC will become more reflexive and shrill demanding a move move to the center


Ouch. But probably.

In truth, the new Bohemians, the avant garde, the LBGTQ faction, people of color, and old Marxists like me all got out and voted their asses off. It just wasn't enough here. We got the House, I probably shouldn't complain, I just really wanted Gillum to win.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309277 - 11/08/18 12:01 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
Gillum victory would have been sweet, but Florida probably isn't there yet. They probably should have run a White guy, or at least a Hispanic. Same deal in Georgia: should have run a White guy, even if the most qualified Democrat was a Black woman.

But Scott Walker is out! And local for me, Daryl Issa's seat goes to a Democrat.

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#309281 - 11/08/18 01:22 AM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Florida had a pretty good centrist candidate who lost the primary to Gillum. I think she'd have lost worse. Daughter of former Governor Bob Graham. Gillum brought out everybody to vote. We fell 1% short.
And we sent Rick Scott to the Senate....

On the bright side Sen. Nelson is out. He was a Democrat but totally worthless as a senator. Scott will likely do the state more good than Nelson ever did. He'll destroy the planet while he does it though.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309285 - 11/08/18 05:41 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
Well, often Senators do nothing for their state and destroy the planet, so you do get something out of it.

I wish primary voters would think about winning the general election a bit more.

Sessions is out. Maybe we get a more rational federal weed response now. DEA has approved a cannabis-based drug, so their Class 1 category for weed makes no sense. I can see Trump legalizing weed to buy off the stoners!

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#309302 - 11/08/18 06:14 PM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Rick Scott attacked Nelson for not doing enough about Florida's water issues from the federal level. He got himself elected so he will be expected to do something about Florida's water issues.
Scott is a Trump acolyte, Trump has valuable holdings in Florida and wants to see them protected.

Same goes for our Governor elect. So perhaps the power of evil can be used for good here. At the expense of destroying the planet of course...
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309308 - 11/08/18 08:29 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
So I know for for many, Sanders has a DelMonte sticker that makes his policy and positions a non starter but I think his take on the elections is worth reading. It's hard to deny he has started something of an awakening of class identity and progressive ideas that had been nearly eliminated from our right wing politics.

Sanders take

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#309319 - 11/09/18 02:42 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Yeah, ole Bernie lit things on fire, bless his heart.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309616 - 11/30/18 06:48 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13419
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
So I know for for many, Sanders has a DelMonte sticker that makes his policy and positions a non starter but I think his take on the elections is worth reading. It's hard to deny he has started something of an awakening of class identity and progressive ideas that had been nearly eliminated from our right wing politics.

Sanders take


NO, not at all, I don't think Bernie is radioactive, I love the guy.
I just don't want to experience a repeat performance of driving with the parking brake on, that's all.

The system works how it works, and if you want to win a POTUS election, it appears that you have to pick one of the two main parties.

Bernie refuses to do so, and the two main parties do what they do, and then we wind up with another Republican in the White House all over again.

I wish to GOD Bernie would accept reality, I wish he'd accepted it years ago. We tried to do the independent thing and it failed.

Life is like that sometimes, but if you don't learn from experience, you are doomed to continue failing.
We cannot afford another heartbreak like Bernie 2016 all over again.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309618 - 11/30/18 08:45 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
The heartbreak was the Democratic Party and the Clinton campaign. At least sanders went back to work pushing for candidates and progressive proposals.
Your loyalty for labels over ideas is amusing Jeff. It's a shame the Democratic Party wasn't loyal to anything beyond its own self interest.
Red team blue team. It doesn't matter. They are both controlled by the same owners.
With democrats like these who needs republicans?


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#309621 - 11/30/18 03:41 PM Re: What Left? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16381
I know it is not de rigeur in some circles, but to understand how to win, nationally, study Obama. He did it twice, and resoundingly. He is not a centrist, yet he pulled together a coalition that included them. He competed everywhere (like Beto in Texas). He is intelligent, charismatic, idealistic and pragmatic. Organization and vision are what won.

Many of the new Democrats follow that same pattern. They are charismatic, intelligent and organized (and diverse). They will make an impact, but they have to be pragmatic about it. That doesn't mean not being idealistic, but it does mean being strategic. Dumping Pelosi now is not strategic. Use her skills and experience, but learn from her. In a year or two, they'll be ready to take over. In the meantime, choose battles wisely. Focus on achievable goals - healthcare and infrastructure first, to make progress and show they can be effective. It means working with Republicans, but that's reality.

The reality is, they need to speak to rural America. Democrats have strongholds in urban centers, and growing influence in suburbs, but they won't gain and keep majorities without gaining influence in rural areas and States. FDR and LBJ managed that by providing principled vision. Obama made inroads. Clinton failed, not because of a lack of principles or intelligence, but because she couldn't sell her vision broadly enough. 3/5ths of the States are still rural. They need to be sold. Healthcare, education and infrastructure are programs they will get behind. Focus on those and Democrats will make inroads.

There are liberal values in rural America, they just don't recognize them as such. (See teachers in Kentucky and Oklahoma.) They need to be taught. 3 pillars that will have universal appeal: healthcare, education funding and infrastructure. Build community around that. It works in rural America and urban America. It's hope and change in different wrappings.

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#309627 - 11/30/18 07:48 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13419
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
The heartbreak was the Democratic Party and the Clinton campaign. At least sanders went back to work pushing for candidates and progressive proposals.
Your loyalty for labels over ideas is amusing Jeff. It's a shame the Democratic Party wasn't loyal to anything beyond its own self interest.
Red team blue team. It doesn't matter. They are both controlled by the same owners.
With democrats like these who needs republicans?



I grant you EVERYTHING, and I already HAVE "granted you everything" on a couple of occasions in the past, as you know.
The only thing I do not grant is your perception that I ascribe loyalty to labels.
No such thing.

If I am attempting to transmit a message over a two way radio, and the frequency I am on is too crowded, but I have access to an RF linear amplifier which will boost my output power to 150 watts instead of the usual five watts, you better believe I am going to connect the red and black wires on that linear amp, install a patch cord between the output of my radio and the input of the amp, turn it on and key the microphone and throw a blanket over the frequency and get through.

You want me to believe that if I stick by principles and quietly announce that I have the right to transmit at the regulation five watts, that the hundreds of other people on the channel will just part ways, clear the channel and let me talk.
It doesn't work that way.

Tell that to the people at Palomar.

_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309628 - 11/30/18 08:11 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
I couldn't disagree with you more NWP.
Obama's first act was to save banking. Buying into the neoliberal market order of saving the banks first in order to save yourselves. One look at the record of action on how he went about the crises should make it understood where he was coming from.

He was intelligent and charismatic much like Clinton and behaves like Clinton. Not an endorsement but and acknowledgement. His organization left much to be desired down ballot and left the democratic party in the a historic wipeout. "'Make america great again' is hope and change curdled."
WHen you say focus on achievable goals what you are saying is work within the narrow confines allowed under the current grift of donor money interest. THis is not anything new in american politics and change has never come from working within the forbidden city. Your talking about supporting institutional change and traditions. Those institutions are incapable of meeting the needs of most americans interests.
I will agree to put the tabasco where it's needed and likely to win. I don't look towards the entrenched institutional power to reform itself. When has it ever NWP?

Regarding Clinton salesmanship, does it ever occur to her supporters that voters just weren't buying what she was selling? Putin didn't invent racism and Bernie didn't exaggerate her in his criticisms. 250K for a half hour speech pal. It don't take a political genius to see where her loyalties were going to be. Skipping Union halls, making people pay for yard signs, the list goes on. It wasn't about her not selling her message effectively to the dirty and unwashed rural yokels. THey weren't buying and were Breaking for Sanders.

"There are liberal values in rural America, they just don't recognize them as such. (See teachers in Kentucky and Oklahoma.) They need to be taught"

Wow! Good luck with that attitude. The teachers of Kentucky and Oklahoma know what's needed. Clinton wasn't it. This might be a good time to remind anyone that the teacher's strike grew out of a traditional radical labor area of the country in West Virginia. They lead there with a populist movement and support from a populist state senator Richard Ojeda. Though he ran for a congressional seat and lost to his republican opponent, Carol Miller, he did make the largest gains in points than any other democratic congressional candidate while campaigning in the deepest red district in the country. Something to keep in mind and raises the question: "what's he selling that others aint?" Something to keep an eye on while centrist democrats run off to prostrate for money and moderate right wingers.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/30/18 08:12 PM)

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#309629 - 11/30/18 08:19 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
"Driving with the parking brake on" is a great analogy. A lot of us love Bernie and his ideas. We just don't think much of his strategy to win. And you DO have to win to implement any changes. You can preach in the forest and the trees might agree with your positions and think very highly of you. Unfortunately, they don't vote so nothing comes of it.

We don't have a parliamentary system, so a Third Party affiliation is very unlikely to win much more than a House or Senate seat. The way to win the presidency, is to join one of the two parties and then rise up through the ranks. If you have stellar qualities, you will rise fast. You can have extreme ideas. Both parties have their extremists. Look at Rand Paul: Extreme libertarian, but he always runs (and wins) as a Republican.

You can't drive the Democratic Party to the left unless you are in the Party. Standing outside and criticizing it does very little.

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#309633 - 12/01/18 01:40 AM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
"Driving with the parking brake on" is a great analogy. A lot of us love Bernie and his ideas. We just don't think much of his strategy to win. And you DO have to win to implement any changes. You can preach in the forest and the trees might agree with your positions and think very highly of you. Unfortunately, they don't vote so nothing comes of it.

We don't have a parliamentary system, so a Third Party affiliation is very unlikely to win much more than a House or Senate seat. The way to win the presidency, is to join one of the two parties and then rise up through the ranks. If you have stellar qualities, you will rise fast. You can have extreme ideas. Both parties have their extremists. Look at Rand Paul: Extreme libertarian, but he always runs (and wins) as a Republican.

You can't drive the Democratic Party to the left unless you are in the Party. Standing outside and criticizing it does very little.


What are you even arguing besides the same knee jerk centrist norms and traditions appeal PIA? Last time I looked the center right was adopting the language of the left, notable in the recent mid-terms. I don't recall any candidate running on 'ladders of opportunity' and other neoliberal BS.
My hope is that the left is just getting started and over time kicks the 'Reagan Democrats' out of the party or at least relegate them to the wilderness of irrelevance.
If the Reagan democrats are in solid blue districts primary em'. Let them go back to their ancestral home of the Republican Party where they belong and let the socialist, unions and DSA begin the repair.
Thirdway centrism has failed the working and middle class by any and all measures.

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#309637 - 12/01/18 03:56 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
Let's be purists and kick all those "Reagan Democrats" out of the Party so their constituents can vote for them as Republicans and we can lose. You seem to think making your Party smaller will help win elections. The problem with that idea is that those more conservative Democrats represent real people who agree with their positions. Send them across the chamber and their supporters mostly go with them. The country is more centrist than you think.

I say don't kick anybody out, and do let the socialists, unions, and DSA in. The Democratic Party needs their input. If they can convince the more conservative members with the quality of their ideas and proposals, then the Party moves left.

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#309638 - 12/01/18 06:02 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13419
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
"Driving with the parking brake on" is a great analogy. A lot of us love Bernie and his ideas. We just don't think much of his strategy to win. And you DO have to win to implement any changes. You can preach in the forest and the trees might agree with your positions and think very highly of you. Unfortunately, they don't vote so nothing comes of it.

We don't have a parliamentary system, so a Third Party affiliation is very unlikely to win much more than a House or Senate seat. The way to win the presidency, is to join one of the two parties and then rise up through the ranks. If you have stellar qualities, you will rise fast. You can have extreme ideas. Both parties have their extremists. Look at Rand Paul: Extreme libertarian, but he always runs (and wins) as a Republican.

You can't drive the Democratic Party to the left unless you are in the Party. Standing outside and criticizing it does very little.


What are you even arguing besides the same knee jerk centrist norms and traditions appeal PIA? Last time I looked the center right was adopting the language of the left, notable in the recent mid-terms. I don't recall any candidate running on 'ladders of opportunity' and other neoliberal BS.
My hope is that the left is just getting started and over time kicks the 'Reagan Democrats' out of the party or at least relegate them to the wilderness of irrelevance.
If the Reagan democrats are in solid blue districts primary em'. Let them go back to their ancestral home of the Republican Party where they belong and let the socialist, unions and DSA begin the repair.
Thirdway centrism has failed the working and middle class by any and all measures.




We are fighting an ARMY.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309639 - 12/01/18 06:11 AM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Let's be purists and kick all those "Reagan Democrats" out of the Party so their constituents can vote for them as Republicans and we can lose. You seem to think making your Party smaller will help win elections. The problem with that idea is that those more conservative Democrats represent real people who agree with their positions. Send them across the chamber and their supporters mostly go with them. The country is more centrist than you think.

I say don't kick anybody out, and do let the socialists, unions, and DSA in. The Democratic Party needs their input. If they can convince the more conservative members with the quality of their ideas and proposals, then the Party moves left.


Why do you think going left makes the party smaller? Time has proven trying to go republican light has already diminished the Democratic Party.
Frankly, the last time the Democratic Party was decades dominant it promoted more leftist positions.
Purity my arse. If there's democrats like that Crowley pig ignoring his district, that's solid blue, primary em'. Their type should have no problem running as republicans. Heck, we got plenty of rebadged republicans that ran as Democrats in this most recent midterm. The switch shouldn't be that difficult for those scabs. Scabs gotta go.
A democrat should understand that, PIA.

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#309640 - 12/01/18 06:20 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
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Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
'Let the unions in'

Nice!....


Edited by chunkstyle (12/01/18 06:21 AM)

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#309645 - 12/01/18 04:46 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16381
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Why do you think going left makes the party smaller?
Not what he said. What he said was, being a purist and purging moderates makes the party smaller. Additionally, you make claims that are ideological, but not supported empirically:

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Time has proven trying to go republican light has already diminished the Democratic Party.
Frankly, the last time the Democratic Party was decades dominant it promoted more leftist positions.
Diminished in size? Not true, the party has grown throughout the last 80 years. I think, my friend, you have a warped perception of the history of the Democratic party. I think that limits the ability to persuade. From an ideological perspective, the Democratic party has been moving left for decades, including during the Clinton terms. I happen to appreciate that shift.

Here's my gripe: if you don't pay attention to history, you can't understand how the Democratic party has matured over time, and how the attitudes of the populace (from which its membership draws) have affected its platform, and its ability to win in different parts of the country. Which makes your final argument not only nonsensical, but proves, explicitly, PIA's point:
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Purity my arse. If there's democrats like that Crowley pig ignoring his district, that's solid blue, primary em'. Their type should have no problem running as republicans. Heck, we got plenty of rebadged republicans that ran as Democrats in this most recent midterm. The switch shouldn't be that difficult for those scabs. Scabs gotta go.
A democrat should understand that, PIA.

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#309648 - 12/01/18 06:12 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Ahhhh now we get into it.
I'm not being a purist. I'm saying, as I always have, that the party needs to mobilize the base and go with bold proposals that have broad popular support. Centrism is opposed to that. It doesn't want to upset it's donor class. It's getting some tasty and lucrative incentives to quash any reasonable progressive agenda's. If there's scabs like Crowley that are standing in the way of leftist, progressive agenda Primary em'. That's not purity, that's self interest.
Corporate boy Crowley's EFF YOU!


The Democratic party floundered in the 70's and has been wandering in the Boomer centrist re-alignment since Reagan's landslide victory and re-election. Clinton, along with a new wave of 'New Democrats' came into power by triangulation. They persued policies promoted by corporate aligned think tanks such as 'Third Way' and turned their backs on traditional bases of support. Slicing off it's left flank of labor and civel rights preferring to go after suburban Reagan democrats.Is this an exaggeration NWP? Should I post up some Wiki? Some powell memorandum? Etc? Mebbe just Third Way then?
I recall going to Washington as a young teenager if the early eighties for an AFL-CIO convention. It was held at a Hilton Hotel convention center and must have had about 2000 shop stewards and union heads. A show of force to the coming showdown with Reagan and his administration. What the unions didn't see coming was the abandonement of the Democratic party by the new Third Way that was about to take over the Party, starting with Bill Clinton. Unions have never recovered their numbers from his time in office until today.
That strategy finally came to a head in 2016 with the corporately aligned Democratic presidential nominee. Ignoring that traditional base of support in the key battle ground states of Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin proved critical. Centrists logic always runs to blaming the other side of the aisle for their lack of success and they have done likewise with this election failure. Blaming Russian interference, Comey, etc rather than admit to an incoherent candidate coupled with a poorly run campaign persiung a mostly professional and gendered and sexual rights crowd.
You want to debate the rightward turn of the democratic leadership NWP? I'm happy to have that debate. You want Empirical evidence, I'm happy to accommodate you. Where would you like to start? Income Levels, suicide rates, opiate addiction, mass incarceration, State violence?

All the blather about declaring yourself Democrat and help the team win is so much fall in the line with the Third Way consensus. 'We'll reward you after you pay your dues'. I think that time should be over. That political velocity doesn't move fast enough nor is effective enough for some of the larger (hell, largest in human history) challenges facing us. Are you happy with Joe Manchin chairing the senate energy committee? Well he's a Democrat so there's that. Never mind the cpending climate hell scape that's a brewin, he's on team blue.


It's true that the country seems to be more progressively aligned. It's also true that more younger voters are declaring themselves independent. Not much love going on there.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/01/18 06:15 PM)

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#309649 - 12/01/18 06:24 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
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Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
By the way NWP, I have paid attention to politics and have pursued history my entire adult life. We may disagree on it's interpretations but that's not ignorance from one side or the other.

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#309651 - 12/01/18 07:32 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
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I'm not saying you're ignorant of this history, chunk, I'm saying you're ignoring it. I don't like the tendency of pols of both parties, particularly Democrats, sucking up to corporate donors, but it is a reality of politics that money wins elections. It is true that the Democrats lost their way in the 70s and 80s, overreacting to Reagan's victory. But, blaming it all on the Democrats, and centrists in particular, is ignoring the realities of the times - and ours as well.

I use Wikipedia as a source here because it is available to everyone, and is curated, so tends to be a pretty neutral source for information. If you read through that history, you understand my point. Democrats in the early 20th Century were very different than Democrats in the 30s, and even more different to Democrats in the 60s. The party has gone through many transformations, but it has remained, since the advent of Teddy Roosevelt's Bull Moose Party, the party of progress. And that goes for all branches of the party.

Joe Manchin and Jon Tester are Democrats, and they are elected Democrats in States that are overwhelmingly conservative. Did you see Tester's speech at the 2016 convention? Tester was on Rachel Maddow the other night for "the Interview". If you watch that, he knows how Democrats can win in rural America, and that message should be listened to. Tester doesn't agree with all of the Democratic platform, but if he insisted on purity, his would be a Republican seat. Same with Manchin. Same with a half-dozen other Democratic Senators. The Democrats would not have the majority in the House without a goodly number of Democrats who just won seats in conservative States. Without the majority, nothing gets done.

That's why many of us, myself included, chafe at your pursuit of purity within the party - it is self-defeating. It's not that we don't hold many of the same beliefs and desires for reform, but, speaking just for myself, I don't believe your approach will keep majorities or win the White House. As I have said before, there is a formula that I think will win, and it happens to be the same three issues that Tester talked about with Rachel Maddow: Healthcare, Education and Infrastructure. That formula works in Rural, Suburban and Urban communities. Push those and I think Democrats will gain seats in both Houses in 2020, especially in rural areas.

I also think that you are ignoring the reality of the makeup of those Houses. The majority of seats are controlled by rural States. It is true in both the House and Senate, although worse in the Senate. In order to reach voters in those jurisdictions, one has to address their needs. They are more conservative than most Democrats, but if they can't be persuaded, they will remain a roadblock to progress.

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#309656 - 12/01/18 09:24 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13419
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle


All the blather about declaring yourself Democrat and help the team win is so much fall in the line with the Third Way consensus.


Again, you're resorting to the old "If you're not with us, you must be against us" nonsense and I object.
I'm not falling in line with Third Way anything at all.

Take that along with the stuff I reiterated earlier and try to grasp the notion that I simply recognize the fact that, in a football game, there's two teams, and there's no such thing as a rank insurgency from the cheerleader faction waltzing onto the field and interrupting the scrimmage and scoring a field goal.

It doesn't work that way and it never has.
Do we need a whole new coaching staff? Absolutely.
Do we need to fire the quarterback and come in with fresh players?
No question about it.

Do we need to sit down with the boys in the front office and prove to them that they're 0-34 in the last ten years and that we have the solution to their losing streak?

Yup.

And it's not going to be easy but it's the only way we're going to move the ball down the field and score some touchdowns.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309657 - 12/02/18 03:58 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
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Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Yeesh! Joe Manchin. Well I guess what your advocating. NWP, is something akin to going to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had. But c'mon, rilly? Joe Manchin?
Allright, lets look at him then.

Here's our tall talking Joe giving it straight up to the hillbilly's:

Admittedly 2010 but here's the man's more refined campaign pitch for defending Obamacares from his republican opponent in 2018:


So there you have it folks. You want to make your point to the hill poors just shoot something with a gun. I don't know if he won the state by shooting sh!t or he was helped by his opponent stepping on his own d!ck by announcing he would stop the teacher's strike 'by any means neccessary' if elected. This is west virginia. It may not mean much in some third belt subarb around ST. Louis but it means a hell of a lot in Mingo county. Hiss opponent was clearly an idiot. He also made matters worse by trying to take away the Obama care. That's a strange pitch to a mostly rural and poor community heavily benefiting from Medicaide expansion.

I do admire Manchin's grift though. He's got that native subtlety of ripping of his, mine and most likely your communities with his family grift. YA'LL REMEMBER EPIPENS!!!

You know, the company boosted the price 500%. I don't know how your community fire and ambulance does it but mine is required to be carrying epipens for allergic emergencies. Mylan, the company who makes the Epipen, justified the price hike for advertising and LOBBYING efforts to mandate that schoold have it made available for children. Because, you know, market world. It's notable that Manchin's Daughter, Bresch, is the sitting CEO during the price hike and there was a notable increase of over 600% in her pay raise when the price of the epipen was increased. But hey, this is a blue team member and we can't hold Sen Manchin at fault for the shady activities of his kid. Right? Amiright? We wouldn't do that with Trump now would we? Amiright?
So all in all, we got Joe Manchin who beat his opponent that was 1. Anti-union and 2. Anti-medicaide expansion. because he learned that a great way to talk to rural poors is to shoot some sh!t while his family engages in corporate corruption in executive boardrooms. That's your guy NWP? You liking some of that Kavenaugh?

You do remember Sanders pulling higher than Trump and crushing Hillary in W Virginia. I remember him shooting sh!t too.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/02/18 04:12 PM)

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#309658 - 12/02/18 04:02 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
I'm sorry Jeff but your analogies and metaphors have lost me. I'm not sure what your position is any more except that you seem to have been allright with the grift of the Hillary campaign during the primary as she was a 'real' democrat (could argue the point with you there but...) and you want party loyalty. If I'm wrong then please correct me but it might help me to understand you better without the analogies. I'm slow and it sounds like static to me.

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#309659 - 12/02/18 06:28 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Stubborn ain'cha, Chunks.

Point remains...we aint got the votes or the candidates to move any quicker to the left.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309660 - 12/02/18 06:41 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
We have the votes out there on issues. Those issues are decidedly left in some cases. We have a political party that has maintained a center right centrist position. Much of that dominance has been by active thwarting of left candidates. No left candidates, no votes.

I'm maintaining the point that, until very recently there has been no left wing political representation and to call most members of the current Democratic party as being 'Left" is nonsense.

However, if you narrow the scope of conversation and issues to confine the meaning of whats 'left' then you can get away that kind of nonsense being 'left'.

I'm calling B.S. is all. Your not 'left' if you think renting your chicken coop to the elderly poors is a progressive left solution. Know your enemy.

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#309661 - 12/02/18 07:58 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16381
I sense a certain inconsistency, too. For someone against Manchin but for Ojeda, there seems to be a logical gap.
Quote:
Ojeda has stated "I don't think I’ve ever voted for a Democrat for president" and supported Donald Trump in 2016. He told Politico that he voted for Trump because he initially believed Trump would do something for West Virginians. By 2018, he expressed regret for voting for Trump, saying that "he hasn't done s***" and he is "taking care of the daggone people he's supposed to be getting rid of".

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#309664 - 12/02/18 08:45 PM Re: What Left? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I sense a certain inconsistency, too. For someone against Manchin but for Ojeda, there seems to be a logical gap.
Quote:
Ojeda has stated "I don't think I’ve ever voted for a Democrat for president" and supported Donald Trump in 2016. He told Politico that he voted for Trump because he initially believed Trump would do something for West Virginians. By 2018, he expressed regret for voting for Trump, saying that "he hasn't done s***" and he is "taking care of the daggone people he's supposed to be getting rid of".


?!
What's inconsistent. Coyness doesn't count if your trying to make a point.

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#309665 - 12/02/18 08:51 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Again - the left consists of them that believe that regulation can be a good thing and the right consists of them that believe that regulation is bad a takes the freedom away from people to make the right decisions. All that other stuff, socialism, religion, libertarian, liberal, conservative, etc gets done on BOTH SIDES! (left and right).

I have always thought it interesting that them, on both sides, will sometimes stray into what the other side considers theirs and nobody else's - just not true. Nixon, for instance, was in favor of equal rights, created the environmental protection agency, national health insurance, increased spending for the arts, etc. All of that yet nobody ever thought to call Nixon a lefty. Its kinda easy to do this with any of our leaders. Basically, there is the left and there is the right and then there are all them pesky distractions.

What is true is that the Democrats have claimed the left and the Republicans have claimed the right. Another interesting point is that, in spite of that, one of the founders of the Republican party was Abraham Lincoln who is, literally, adored by the Democrats.

My reason for this one is the title of this topic; "What Left?" I think that the question itself is not quite right, perhaps, if it was What Political Left it would have a little more validity but not much. I suspect, and do not mean to offend, that Chunkstyle is actually somebody who believes in Social Justice. I don't mean Socialism (which is a system wherein the state OWNS all production) I mean he believes that there are right things and wrong things and he is standing for what he considers the right which, when it all boils down, means that he is standing on the side of regulation/left. The problem with Regulation is, basically, that them that would regulate regularly go waaaaaaay too far (an example of that one was the approximately 20,000 pages of regulations in Obamacare gifted to us by the 'left') The right too has their little problems. One that I like is that Social Security takes the right of folks to make the right decision, for themselves, and set aside something for the 'golden' years. I can list what is wrong with this one but why bother. I do, however, actually have friends who utterly believe that one and I consider them to be part of the 'right'.

Just thought I would bring a bit of personal insight into this one.
Oh, not claiming that I am right in any sense of that word <G> Just saying...........

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#309671 - 12/03/18 05:12 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
But that 20000 pages of regulations in ACA was for the insurance companies, not for us pilgrims. You know, the companies that will hire 500 hundred lawyers to search for loopholes so they don't have to pay your claims? They NEEDED 20000 pages to tell those bastards exactly what they weren't allowed to do to us.

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#309673 - 12/03/18 02:32 PM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
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Registered: 09/09/11
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For 13 years of my career I was immersed in "regulated industries" - things like gambling, liquor control, tow trucks, motor carriers and insurance. It isn't until you do that kind of work that you really get a feel for how utterly necessary most regulations are. Now, there are instances where there are too many regulations, but they are far, far fewer than those that are too little regulation. When someone complains about "too much regulation", I always ask myself,"what are they trying to get away with?". 9 times out of ten, it is about encroaching on profit, not about the reasonableness of the regulation itself.

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#309675 - 12/03/18 03:48 PM Re: What Left? [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: jgw
The problem with Regulation is, basically, that them that would regulate regularly go waaaaaaay too far (an example of that one was the approximately 20,000 pages of regulations in Obamacare gifted to us by the 'left')


Thank you JGW, you illustrated perfectly the point I was trying to make originally on this thread with that observation.

It wasn't the 'left' that gifted us with that million moving parts product called Obamacare. Instead, it was a creation of a always hopeful center right democratic market world orientation searching for moderate republican votes for a very public problem. There was no left involvement in the crafting of that bill once the public option was blocked by the center right democrats.
Yet you think of that legislation coming from the left? Hmmmm.....

That's the problem. It denies a political identity and voice to a true political left when the centrists position themselves as 'the left. They are far from it and you could make the argument that they are more akin to Eisenhower Republicans than traditional democrats. What it does is confuse people as to what 'left' wing politics are by co-opting it's identity. That's not an accident, by the way, but a result of Third way' positioning. It is meant to smother a left wing voice in the political arena.

To reduce left wing politics as simply being in favor of regulation or not is an oversimplification and a mistake. The left is very much in favor of a more democratic organization of capitalism for starters. Less than that would be at least a right to organize to negotiate wth bosses over wages, as an example of a more 'left' positioning politically. The center right Democrats have walked away from that idea and have taking union votes for granted since Bill Clinton. We saw it on display in 2016 and this time it finally cost the centrist party the presidency.
If you want to read what leftist politics are about today JGW, you might look at the Labour manifesto from the Labour party in the U.K. You will find stark differences in political positioning from our neoliberal center right Dem party in the U.S.
It should throw into contrast the differences between the centrists Dems and a true 'left': Labour Manifesto


Edited by chunkstyle (12/03/18 04:00 PM)

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#309676 - 12/03/18 04:16 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Another example of a left wing political voice to our south:
Privatization is theft

A perspective eradicated in U.S. politics with a few notable exceptions recently. A big difference in perspective than the 'ladders of opportunity' ideology dominating the Democratic Party. Obrador did not make a pilgrimage to Goldman Sachs to fund his message.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/03/18 04:50 PM)

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#309717 - 12/05/18 07:53 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
If you read the original obamacare bill you will not places that have a blank underline "______". This is a signal, to the bureaucracy to fill it in. This was not something to do with making pals with the Republicans, it was due to incompetent, lazy, legislation. I should also add that the Republicans were responsible for half of that bill. If you can find the c-span video of the markups you will see what I am talking about. I post this on this site when I watched it.

You are, however, right about Obama trying to be pals with the Republicans. The fact, however, is that the Republicans, right after Obama was elected stated, on tv, that their goal was to fight ANY legislation Obama might try and pass and they were very effective in that regard. This is, incidentally, why Jackass can so easily back out stuff Obama did. This is because he was unable to legislate and had to do it by fiat and Jackass could just undue them under the same system.

I think that you are saying that Unions lost membership due to Republican legislation. The simple fact is that Unions simply went too far. I can remember, for instance, when GM went on strike over the fact that GM was unwilling to pay for magazine subscriptions for the washrooms. I have had my own problems with Unions so I can talk with some experience in that matter. I am not against them, when they make sense. On the other hand the Teamsters, for instance, didn't support their own membership, at the time, so much as demanding high fees for joining so that they could fund mafia casinos in Las Vegas. I actually had one business wherein the employees themselves choose to vote the Teamsters out. I suspect things have changed but, no longer being involved, I have no idea if they have or not.

One of the problems, in the United States, is that there seems to be little or no moderation and greed is rampant. Without moderation, and a willingness to work things out, things will continue to at least seem to be in decline. When we have a situation like what we have now, with the Republicans AND the Democrats screaming at each other instead of talking, having a congress that may work as much as 3 days a week and take off, literally months (congress is like our schools. Christmas vacation, Easter Vacation, Summer Vacation, etc), to raise money to keep their jobs, our politics are always going to stink no matter who is in charge. I blame the voters for this one. They just don't seem to give a damn. (not all, but enough to make a difference).

I am, incidentally, not really interested in starting a battle over this stuff. It is what it is and its unlikely to change real quick.

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#309719 - 12/05/18 08:21 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13419
Loc: Whittier, California
Go to any shopping mall in America today.

Much of the mall is filled with stores that sell mostly useless crap made in China for a cheap price. Not much thought went into the quality of that crap because all Americans care about is the price. And most of the parking spaces are occupied by the most popular vehicle in America today, the Ford F150 4X4 pickup truck.
It's so damn popular, in fact, that Ford has stopped making all cars, except for the Mustang.

The Ford F150 4X4's you see, most if not all of them have never been off the asphalt, despite their large and imposing lift kits and big meaty tires.
And even if they did go off road, most of the drivers are so incompetent and poorly trained that they would get stuck if they did venture into the wild.

The trucks use a lot of gas, but the owners don't care, as long as they appear to be big. strong and capable.

Our leadership, our unions, our work product, our approach to community and our world outlook are all a lot like the typical Ford F150 4X4's that occupy most of the parking spots in a typical shopping mall.

But all of it has the APPEARANCE of being big, strong and capable, until you put it to the test.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309720 - 12/05/18 09:43 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 370
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
We are still big, strong and capable, it just that our civilian leadership are small, weak and incapable most times.

We are not a bad people, through out most of the world the American people are liked, even in places like Iran, it is just our government and governmental decisions and actions that are disliked. My proof, all the immigrants, especially the refugees, trying to come here.
_________________________
Vote 2020.

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#309721 - 12/05/18 11:32 PM Re: What Left? [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: jgw


I think that you are saying that Unions lost membership due to Republican legislation. The simple fact is that Unions simply went too far. I can remember, for instance, when GM went on strike over the fact that GM was unwilling to pay for magazine subscriptions for the washrooms. I have had my own problems with Unions so I can talk with some experience in that matter. I am not against them, when they make sense. On the other hand the Teamsters, for instance, didn't support their own membership, at the time, so much as demanding high fees for joining so that they could fund mafia casinos in Las Vegas. I actually had one business wherein the employees themselves choose to vote the Teamsters out. I suspect things have changed but, no longer being involved, I have no idea if they have or not.



The Unions had their problems to be sure. Many of them were just skimming operations for the union heads while cozying up to management. I've been in them and have nothing good to say about them. They are not all perfect but I would much rather work in a union than not. Workers tend to do better. Much better.

As far as Republican legislation you only have to look at one that spelled a steady decline for union membership: Taft Hartley

Combine that with the steady erosion of right to work laws (anti union organizing), management class demonizing them in the culture and media and a complicit Democratic party and you have what we have today. Stagnating wages over four decades, lowest labor uptake of GDP, lowest union participation, record high housing cost ratio to income, etc.

What's wrong with magazines in the bathrooms by the way? Is that so egregious as my state building a billionaire a new warehouse in NYC? The level of socializing profit to a small population of executives and shareholders these days is astonishing. But asking for education and healthcare? the public is somehow not there yet according to Democratic party leadership.
Hmmmmmm.....

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#309725 - 12/06/18 11:13 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I know, its easier blaming the decline in union membership on gov. I repeat, I had one business where the employees, on their own, decided to stop their participation in the Teamster's You are right about Taft Hartley but its certainly not the only reason. The right to work is also at fault but the title remains correct. Its why, for instance, Boing moved to one of the Carolinas. Basically, right to work states tend to get a lot of the jobs because they are right to work. All that being said, Unions have a LOT of baggage that is not conducive to increasing membership.

I am not sure about the Democratic party leadership (other than they are waaay too old, set in their ways and oversaw massive losses due to not paying attention) on healthcare and education. On the other hand healthcare needn't even be a social issue so much as an economic issue. Take the VA (which Jackass is trying to privatize). They provide healthcare at a significant saving over private care:
https://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/08/va_hospitals_vs.html
https://www.legion.org/legislative/testimony/225841/examining-quality-and-cost-va-health-care

I am against any healthcare by gov unless its completely paid for by taxes and gov takes over the entire industry, lock, stock and barrel. If they did that, and joined up with the rest of the industrialized world the nation would save well over 1 trillion dollars annually. I consider healthcare AND education to be the same as police departments, the army, the navy, fire departments and libraries. They should be treated exactly the same and should be paid for by the entire nation, just as they are in most of the rest of the world. The main difference, especially in education, in other countries, is that to do higher education you must be qualified and work at it. I also think that the debts incurred by those in higher education is, literally, a crime and just plain wrong. We now have an entire generation of indebted due to higher education as well as claimed, and failed higher education. I used to have a heart specialist that had a huge debt after graduation. She paid 100,000 against that debt and it didn't even touch the principle. The interest on such debts, which gov owns, is approximately 2 times what plain banks would have charged! (its REALLY wrong!)

I should also mention that my reps in congress all support healthcare and education as social necessities.

In closing. Our government has not had a study and re-organization since the Hoover Commission (around 1946). I blame that fact on gov having what can only be considered a runaway bureaucracy. We REALLY need another Hoover Commission with teeth. The last one was responsible for at least 7 major government re-organizations. I am sure that Obamacare would never have been buried in unnecessary regulations had that had been done. I also have my suspicions about the length of current legislation over the same stuff 20 years ago (if you go back to the 1950's the increase even three times long)

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#309733 - 12/07/18 04:41 AM Re: What Left? [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
I enjoyed your rant, jgw, but will pick at this minor point because this is the direction I think we're headed on healthcare.
Quote:
I am against any healthcare by gov unless its completely paid for by taxes

Medicare For All is what you're gonna get. You can call your Medicare premiums "taxes" if you want and coverage isn't exactly all inclusive without supplemental plans. Our government isn't very good at designing things from the ground up but it might be able to build on an established and popular program like Medicare.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309734 - 12/07/18 04:47 AM Re: What Left? [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13419
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
I enjoyed your rant, jgw, but will pick at this minor point because this is the direction I think we're headed on healthcare.
Quote:
I am against any healthcare by gov unless its completely paid for by taxes

Medicare For All is what you're gonna get. You can call your Medicare premiums "taxes" if you want and coverage isn't exactly all inclusive without supplemental plans. Our government isn't very good at designing things from the ground up but it might be able to build on an established and popular program like Medicare.


Yup, true. We already HAVE the infrastructure built, so we don't NEED to build an entirely new infrastructure and reinvent the system.
It's there, and the large question is just how we intend to pay for it, and how much.

We missed the chance to build out a government health care infrastructure after WW2 had just ended, which is when the Brits decided to do it. Oh, of course it also helped that much of Britain's larger infrastructure was reduced to rubble at the time.
But anyway, that was the time period where Uncle Sam might have had a convincing argument to build out such a system to replace what we had, much the way Interstate freeways replaced a lot of the old U.S. Highway system.

Now it's here, and it's huge, and it covers most of the nation.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309740 - 12/07/18 07:25 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
We already have tons of hospitals, clinics, doctors, nurses, PAs, labs, etc. Insurance, Medicare, Medicaid, or VA already pay for just about everything. All we would be paying in addition are the idiots who skip insurance and then get in a major accident. Even those idiots end up being covered by Medicaid once their savings and house are gone.

So it can't possibly cost more than we are paying already. It has to cost less because we let insurance companies make 20% overhead, while those very same companies process all the Medicare claims for just 5% overhead. And make a profit doing that!

What they could do so there are no shocks to the system, is to just lower the Medicare age by five years each year. So in 2019, everybody 60 gets Medicare. In 2020, everybody 55. And so on.

One thing I'd really like to see is drug patent reform. Some drugs are making a 20000% profit, and it really makes Medicare expensive. Limit all companies to 1000% profit across all their drugs, or they lose their exclusivity rights. Then limit royalties they can charge the generic manufacturers to that 1000%.

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#309742 - 12/07/18 03:38 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
As someone who lost his job (end of an era), and started my own humble one, I had to purchase insurance as an individual thru COBRA then the Chamber of Commerce, I can assure you that it wasn't ignorance that made me stop buying the Chamber's insurance plan. It was simply unaffordable. When you don't have it you don't have it. That's not ignorance but a growing reality for more Americans. Ask the 15k GM workers about to lose theirs. The Carrier workers that already have. Stop making healthcare an employer benefit.
Medicare for all is the only logical way forward.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/07/18 04:16 PM)

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#309744 - 12/07/18 05:47 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Back to the point, It's been an interesting week for the embryonic left wing of American politics. The two events that featured biggest for me were;
Sanders appearing on Colbert to discuss a decidedly left wing agenda. In that conversation he was asked about the realism of his proposals while having Mitch McConnel and republicans controlling the Senate. Sander's reply was actual politics as I have come to understand it. Draw sharp differences between yourself and your opponent by championing bold proposals that have broad popular support.........
It's as though he's describing an alternative to the knee jerk corporate wing of the democratic party by offering voters politics instead of the centrists fetish for consensus. Bipartisanship. Reaching across the aisle . Market place of ideas and other slobber masquerading as politics but is really nothing more than supporting status quo for the donor class. Imagine! Sanders describes political strategy

Second was the young Turks recently elected and doing a public service of taking their constituents along for the ride and sharing the process of indoctrination into "how things are done". I hope that this will prove just as effective as the POTUS rallies that the presidents has been doing for his loyalist. Keeping them warm for a crucial midterm instead of letting them go to sleep as past administrations have been inclined to do. In particular, Ocasio Cortez's taking us inside the Washington establishment is effectively breaking down the corporate wall of perception, mainly the corporate press, and allowing us to see conservative think tanks and Goldman (who else) sponsoring congressional freshmen orientation night at Harvard (why haven't we burned that Mordor equivalent to the ground!) and the SWEET healthcare package congressmen receive.
Freshmen Orientation

I won't bother mentioning the 'Green New Deal' suffice to say it's been the only rational sane proposal that I've seen from Washington in many years and it's taken a 'Lefty" freshmen to champion it. All in all it was a very interesting week in Washington.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/07/18 05:52 PM)

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#309745 - 12/07/18 08:15 PM Re: What Left? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
The problem with just about any expenditures, new or old, is that there IS NO MONEY! The tax program of the Republicans and Jackass took care of any money that might be available. On top of that we are in the beginning of an economic downturn which, I think, will be kinda devistating.

The Right (I know, no right or left)in collusion with Jackass, the Russians and Saudis and Israelis has, pretty much, wrecked any thoughts of doing just about anything but trying to pay the bills. There have actually been some talking heads suggesting that Jackass has no plans to even pay down the debt (I am not sure how that can be). Anyway - all this talk of healthcare and education for all, etc. is just plain old wishful thinking, no matter what side you are on. The interest on the debt, plus the annual destruction of Medicare and Medicaid (10 billion a year just for Medicare alone) kinda takes care of everything.

The winners, of course, are not so much the corps so much as the 1% who actually are the winners in all of this and are adding billions to their coffers. The only things that the Right hasn't done, so far, is start a new war with Iran but I have faith its on their agenda.

On the bright side the Left (I know <sigh>) get a shot at doing what the house is supposed to do and gets control of the money! Jackass is threatening a shutdown if he doesn't get at least 5 billion for his wall. (my fond hope is that they stop ALL legislation that is not in the interest of the nation) One can only hope that they stick to their guns, don't give him a dime, and submit a new budget that rolls back the gifts to the 1%, stops all the war stuff, and actually starts to run a congressional house based on the constitution and actually displays a bit of backbone, integrity and responsibility for the nation instead of their damned jobs (thought I would stick in a bit of wishful thinking myself).

In other words, the Dems are going to find themselves back in the driver's seat, saving the economy, rebuilding jobs, and fixing the nation. It starts on January and will, I think, extend waaaay past 2020. Hopefully, this time, they will toot the hell out of their collective horns and point out who has caused the mess on a constant basis. If the right can do it with lies then one would think the same strategy, this time with the truth, will have, at least, as good a response over time? This time, hopefully, this will actually educate the nation as to the reality of what, exactly, the Right contributes on their way out.

All this, incidentally, is based on a world class Republican spending spree and debt, rising unemployment (wait for the next report, its gonna be a duzy), interest on the debt, Medicare and Medicaid reductions starting to hit bigtime, a stock market in free fall, and a really pissed off generation of university educated victims starting to act out.

On the other hand (can't resist), the mystical left can also continue their internal, and very public, strife, bickering, whining, lack of leadership, etc. This includes the constant adoration of a very old self proclaimed socialist who proudly proclaims he is not a member of the Democratic party but thinks he should be able to run it.

Hopefully this will not happen and everybody who does not support the agenda of environmental destruction, self aggrandizement, ally insulting, personal greed, racist, and socially irresponsible will understand that there are two sides and they are on the other side and quite willing to talk to each other, work it out, and forage ahead.

Just saying.............

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#309746 - 12/07/18 09:26 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
You could simply use the more accurate term of 'center right' JGW. It's O.K. and would be more accurate in a historic and now, thankfully, current sense. I can understand how someone from a managerial class would find comfort in a 'leftists' political positioning going no further than, say, Chuck Schumer or Nancy Pelosi but they would hardly qualify as 'left' by any edjumacated standard.
Your calling the current majority of the Democratic party left would be akin to calling the Tea Party Republicans 'nostalgic' or 'slightly old fashioned'.

By the By, I would disagree with your notion that the democratic party is the responsible party of the economy. Unless you ignore Dollar Bill Clinton deregulating the banking industry leading to the 2008 banking/ housing crises and of which Obama did everything for the banks to make them whole and very little for actual citizens under water. Just saying.

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#309754 - 12/08/18 06:43 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
All these terms, like "center right" are just parsing the facts. The facts are that the nation is polarized and its all about supporting the right/Republicans/Conservatives/Libertarials or not. The divide is recognized and easily defined. In the current cases I simply don't buy fine distinctions. The simple fact is that 'right' and 'left' are binary choices.

Clinton did that in his last days in office and is not representative of the party as a whole. Here is a little history of what you are referring to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermath_of_the_repeal_of_the_Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act
As far as banking is concerned the Democrats were responsible for a somewhat far reaching bill to get the banks under control. The Right, however, has been chipping away on that one too, thereby adding fuel to the coming economic downturn.

I do wonder, Chunkstyle, how do you refer to yourself? Apparently you are not a Democrat so, when voting time comes do you vote for the Republicans? Voting for anything else is, basically, tossing your vote in the gutter. However, there is always the third choice and that is submit a blank ballot which, at least, will send some kind of message without actually supporting the Right nor the mythic Left. Oh, in case you wonder, this is a rhetorical question and how you have voted, or are going to vote, is YOUR business. That being the case there is no need to actually answer the question <G>

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#309758 - 12/08/18 07:20 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
So, Chunks, why does it bother you so much that our "left" begins at center right? It's just a fact of life.
We work with it and go forward as best we can. Overall, I'm pretty optimistic about the future. We've swung about as far right as I think we can go. We're gonna win big in 2020 and I think we'll see some interesting legislation after that.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309766 - 12/09/18 02:03 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Political views fall on a spectrum JGW and that spectrum has been narrowed to a center right and far right status quo. Your binary choice may simplify your voting choice preference but I don't think it represents everyone. To think the current positions of the parties as being left and right denies the reality of our political history.
The reason why I dislike the center right Democratic Party being called 'left' is that it is a masquerade that neither represents current left political thought nor our countries past left political traditions. As I've stated before'that ain't no accident' and it serves a very important purpose of narrowing political thought and denying a left alternative to the benefit of the ruling status quo.
Thru a remarkable set of circumstances, it's been rekindled again in the U.K. where the previous neoliberal center right Labour Party of Tony Blair has been all but obliterated, having been given a real left alternative.
Macron now seems to have lost legitimacy as well as he tried to impose neoliberal solutions to the growing climate disaster. The outcome of that street fight TBD but it could go hard right. The previous leftist government left with very low approval ratings as it found itself very limited to enacting the changes desired by voters due to the EU rules. That outcome may go hard right as a left option was tried but failed to meet voter expectations and strategy poorly formed.





Edited by chunkstyle (12/09/18 03:21 AM)

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#309781 - 12/09/18 08:12 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I am a bit confused. First there is the political spectrum thing. 'Spectrum' infers a distribution, the distribution can be wide or thin but it represents, I think, a significant number of views rather than 1 or 2. You are determined to define the Democratic party as being represented by what you refer to as the 'center right'. The Democratic party I am familiar with represents a wider 'spectrum' than that. I suspect its between the center right back to socialist in the classic meaning of that term. I also believe that there are a LOT more people in that spectrum than in the spectrum of Jackass True Believers and THAT is how the Dems did what they did in the last election.

Your insistence that the Democratic party is made up only of them on the 'right' is, obviously, just plain wrong. I guess what you are saying is that voting Democratic is akin to voting for Hitler? I just don't get it. I don't think you support the Republican/Right nor do you support the Democratic/Left (because, I guess, it doesn't exist). This being your apparent political stance what and/or who do you support?

You might also belong to that sturdy group of nay sayers determined to have their way or either vote for Jackass or just don't vote because the Dems have no candidates that you approve of.

The only other that is that you carry the black flag of anarchism as that seems to be all that is left.

This is, of course, all just plain old speculation. Just wondering.................

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#309787 - 12/10/18 09:45 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
He could also be a Russian Troll. That fits pretty well with the Russian anti-Democratic Party theme.

"You can vote for Trump, or support Bernie. As long as you don't vote for Hillary because we don't want competent US governance."

Remember, not electing Hillary played right into Putin's scheme for weakening US influence in the world. Considering all the things we have learned in the last few months, it looks like a lot of American's actions helped Putin in his quest to strengthen his Malignant Kleptocracy.

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#309788 - 12/10/18 02:24 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16381
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Stop making healthcare an employer benefit.
Medicare for all is the only logical way forward.
I couldn't agree more. From a macroeconomic standpoint, our current fetish with "employer paid" healthcare is insane. For big bidness, it is a competitive anchor weighing them down, since virtually all their competitors have some form of national healthcare, and for small business it absorbs a lot of entrepreneurial energy. My son works for a mom-and-pop business that is offering health insurance for the first time through the healthcare exchange. The employees and the business will each pay 25% of the cost, and the State will pay the rest. It's a win for everyone, really. They are mostly minimum-wageish workers who can't afford insurance on their own, but it would be even better if neither had to suck up 25% of the cost. Taxes would go up, yes, but overall costs would go down.

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#309795 - 12/10/18 05:14 PM Re: What Left? [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: jgw
I am a bit confused. First there is the political spectrum thing. 'Spectrum' infers a distribution, the distribution can be wide or thin but it represents, I think, a significant number of views rather than 1 or 2. You are determined to define the Democratic party as being represented by what you refer to as the 'center right'. The Democratic party I am familiar with represents a wider 'spectrum' than that. I suspect its between the center right back to socialist in the classic meaning of that term. I also believe that there are a LOT more people in that spectrum than in the spectrum of Jackass True Believers and THAT is how the Dems did what they did in the last election.

Your insistence that the Democratic party is made up only of them on the 'right' is, obviously, just plain wrong. I guess what you are saying is that voting Democratic is akin to voting for Hitler?



The democratic party has shifted to the right since the time of FDR, keynesian economic consensus and the New Deal. You could say that americans have turned more center right but that would not be accurate any more than your insistance that their has been a broad distribution of political thought within the Democratic Party. Until recently, anything other than a Neoliberal Consensus was effectively neutralized.
If you don't believe there is a Neoliberal consensus then I suggest you look at the primary process of candidate selection.
Much like the Republican Party's tactic of voter suppression the DNC, DCCC and DSC have relied on candidate suppression to maintain that neoliberal consensus. There has been some very good reporting on this and, if your paying attention during the primary races in 2018, it was on full display yet again.
Republicans running as re-flagged Democrats, Steny Hoyer's vield threats to a candidate in a bar, etc etc. I've linked this reporting but, whatever. People will believe what they want and a posted link won't change any of it.
I don't mind you being comfortable with a center right alignment. What I do mind is you claiming the Democratic party, as it currently exists, is 'Left'. I'm pushing back on that by drawing distinctions between what is or has historically been considered 'left' and the positions of our current Democratic Party. It's about as annoying as the curent Republican party claiming to be the progressive political party of the past under Lincoln. The comparison, in the same way, is absurd.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/10/18 05:16 PM)

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#309797 - 12/10/18 06:19 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16381
chunk, you need to read more Keynesian literature.

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#309798 - 12/10/18 06:33 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Could you be more specific NWP? What parts of it and why?

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#309800 - 12/10/18 07:36 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Chunk;
I think I am getting it. What you are saying is that there is nobody really on the left, not that there is no left just nobody is home there and now everybody is center right.

Then you went on to say that not only is the Democratic center right but that they attack folks running under the Democratic banner. I doubt the first and get some humor out of the second.

I have seen the DNC go after some candidates and not others. Normally, when that happens, they had somebody else in mind, usually somebody who has put in the time and effort and gets 'appointed'. Same thing happens on the Republican side as well. Then there is the "candidate suppression" thing. If nothing else that's a really great phrase. I have been saying, for a very long time, that one of the problems with the parties is that they tend to, sometimes, offer up candidates that don't really have the capacity to even feed themselves. That stuff comes under the heading of "sh*t happens".

I would point out, you may have missed it, that the Dems, in the last election put 39 or 40 candidates, many of which were new and female into the congressional house and a LOT more than that into state legislatures. Does this mean that all them candidates were choices made by the DNC after first purging the same, or more candidates? I guess I just don't understand it all.

I guess I will just have to go with something like; "The Democrats won the congressional house and a lot of state legislatures and, apparently, all these newly elected Dems oppose Jackass and all that's come with him. To me it sounds as if they are against the Jackass criminal organizations and, seemingly, for removing said criminal activities as soon as possible. This seems a good thing to me.

As far as the terms; 'left', 'right', etc. are concerned I couldn't care less. If you want to believe that the entire nation has decided to support the Jackass is fine with me. I don't believe that but, if you do, I wish you good luck, Merry Christmas, and a belief that I just don't buy that one. As a matter of fact I suspect you are in a kindofa lonely place but it is YOUR choice which puts you a bit ahead of the True Believers. Anyway, If you don't like 'left' how about "Folks against the Republican Righteous Right"?

Just wondering...............

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#309802 - 12/10/18 08:05 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
JGW,
Yes, you are correct. There has been very little representation of left wing politics since the purge in the 1950's of those political forces that brought about the New Deal consensus. To say that he current power that dominates the Democratic party today as being left just doesn't square with the historical record.
You need to look more closely at the dynamics that make up a democratic primary race vs. a republican. Offering a critique or being skeptical does not mean your taking another political parties side. I call it the way I see it and the Neoliberal, market oriented forces have kept a grip on the power, to a large extent, thru campaign financing. This was not always the case but happens to be now. To deny this is to deny the current reality of the party and also the large effort to reform the primary process since the 2016 election debacle.
No, I didn't miss the midterm election and there's a bit of good and the usual bad. There was much of the same primary rigging by the DNC and I had posted up this problem while the races were underway. You have a party apparatus running on an ability to be connected to wealth rather than offering people political solutions to their problem. If you think having half of america unable to handle an $800 dollar emergency is not a problem then you might want to consider yourself part of the problem.
We do have an embryonic left wing forming with this mid term election. A small one that is currently punching above it's weight and generating some bold policy ideas to some very big public problem. Medicare for all instead of that million moving parts monstrosity called Obamacare that remains too expensive, a green new deal, maybe we shouldn't be caging humans more than any other country on earth for a buck. Ideas like corporations paying taxes or capitalism serving society instead of society serving capitalism.
In this age of biblical inequality and rampant corporate criminality which of those options appears to be winning JGW?

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#309804 - 12/10/18 08:21 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
These guys JGW....
These guys are not left wing politics....
These guys will build a billionaire a free enterprise building with tax payer monies that should be going to public good.



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#309806 - 12/10/18 09:04 PM Re: What Left? [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
They are mostly minimum-wageish workers who can't afford insurance on their own

Those numbers don't jibe: Minimum wage for full-time single employees is is $14,500 per year. The Medicaid income limit is $16,643 for single men. Every minimum wage worker should be covered by Medicaid, even in states that have not expanded coverage.

There is a hole in states that have not expanded Medicaid up to the bottom limit for ACA. Those people get no Medicaid and no ACA assistance. I actually had to take some 401K money as income to reach the bottom of the ACA limit when I first retired. Then my wife and I got a total refund of everything we paid into ACA for the year.

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#309807 - 12/10/18 09:14 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I have no idea who the tall guy is but the other is Bloomberg. I think he is the one who switched from Republican to Democrat. If he is going to run as a Democrat then he had the decency, at least, to join the Democrats unlike some who want to run as a Democrat without actually joining the Democrats which I think is crazy.

Anyway, Bloomberg, this is the guy who just gave 1.5 billion to a school so that those who couldn't afford, without massive debt, still get educated in a university. You know, the guy who gives, literally, billions of dollars to good causes. He donated, literally, tens of millions, in the last elections to support Democratic candidates. I think what you are telling me, this time, is that anybody who has the big bucks is bad, bad definition of being rich. I wonder, is it your plan to ship all them rich folk to an island someplace (seems to me there was another fella that also had that thought. You know, it started something like; "there is a spectre hanging over Europe". That one is easy, I kinda like the guy in Mexico who started the American Worker's Party a bit better. No sense not going the whole way.

Now, who is winning. Well, the big bucks are winning and they are winning because of an electorate pathetically ignorant and determined to dump in their own nest. I know, you blame it on the big bucks but I tend to believe that ignorance and lazy certainly have something to do with it. Look at the massive job the Dems did just to get their supporters to actually get off their dead butts and actually vote. This is, if nothing else, an excellent example of what is completely unnecessary. I am for mandatory voting. This business that everybody has a right not to vote is just so much crap. Our electorate has proven that they have to be forced (FORCED!) to act in their own best interest. Austrailia is the last to make voting mandadory, the world didn't end, but their process suddenly got interesting and there were adjustments made when almost everybody voted. Now its our turn.

As far as money is concerned, the solution is pretty simple. I would like to see congress try and legislate two simple things; speech is not money and money is not speech, a corporation is not a single individual. You get rid of those two and money is gone from politics. Its that simple. Let congress legislate it, ALL of congress, and then let the supremes deal with it. It just might be interesting. Given how much Obama and Jackass has been able to do with no legislation I think it might be interesting to see what happens when congress actually does something. If they can do that I would also suggest that congress is open, at least, for 6 hours a day, 5 days a week instead of 3 hours, 3 days a week. I would also suggest a law that would ban gov from paying for the travelling expenses of them in congress. If they want to go home every weekend then they get to pay the freight for that out of their own pockets.

Just saying.............

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#309809 - 12/10/18 09:20 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
Interesting premise that the people's wishes should completely override the wisdom of the Party organization. That's pretty much what happened in the Republican primaries in 2016. If the Party hacks had been a little more aggressive, they would have knocked out Trump as unqualified. Instead the "wisdom of the people" prevailed and they elected that abomination.

Maybe pure democracy is not such a good thing when you have an "uneducated" bunch of voters. (Trump's favorites!)

Ironic too, that a socialist state would NEVER let the people elect a fascist. They might let them decide between some qualified candidates and positions, but a Donald Trump would be precluded by the Party out of hand.

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#309810 - 12/10/18 09:29 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I have said this before. There is simply no way to provide healthcare for everybody unless gov takes over the entire healthcare industry, lock, stock and barrel. Drug companies get seriously controlled, just like in the rest of the world. Healthcare device manufacturers get seriously controlled, just like the rest of the world. I can keep going with this but I think the message is clear. NO more insurance companies! NO more healthcare payed for by employers, etc. ALL healthcare covered by taxes, just like police, firemen, and libraries. This needs to be done so healthcare for profit doesn't bankrupt the country. This is why the United States, right now, as a nation, spends approximately twice as much on healthcare per capita than ANY OTHER NATION ON EARTH! We are spending over 1.5 TRILLION dollars MORE than any other nation that provides healthcare!

medicare for all is a bad dream. They tell you that it only covers 80% and its up to the sick to pay the rest. Two things wrong with that. The first is that it covers less than 80% and the second is the solution is medigap insurance and that is NOT cheap!

I think I posted something about how much it costs the VA to supply healthcare. Its substantially less than our for profit healthcare. If they were able to get more control over drug prices and devices it would cost even less! I am mentioning this because having Veterans Administration healthcare for all makes a LOT more sense (they, for instance, no only dicker with drug companies for better prices but also shop, worldwide for the best stuff for the best price). Jackass, however, is trying to privatize the VA which is causing the VA to have genuine messes not of their own making.

I apologize for this repeat but I think its important to at least talk about this stuff.


Edited by jgw (12/10/18 09:31 PM)

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#309811 - 12/10/18 10:12 PM Re: What Left? [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: jgw
I have no idea who the tall guy is but the other is Bloomberg. I think he is the one who switched from Republican to Democrat. If he is going to run as a Democrat then he had the decency, at least, to join the Democrats unlike some who want to run as a Democrat without actually joining the Democrats which I think is crazy.

Anyway, Bloomberg, this is the guy who just gave 1.5 billion to a school so that those who couldn't afford, without massive debt, still get educated in a university. You know, the guy who gives, literally, billions of dollars to good causes. He donated, literally, tens of millions, in the last elections to support Democratic candidates. I think what you are telling me, this time, is that anybody who has the big bucks is bad, bad definition of being rich. I wonder, is it your plan to ship all them rich folk to an island someplace (seems to me there was another fella that also had that thought. You know, it started something like; "there is a spectre hanging over Europe". That one is easy, I kinda like the guy in Mexico who started the American Worker's Party a bit better. No sense not going the whole way.



Perhaps the oligarchs shouldn't take so much so that we can properly fund public services and public space. The philanthropy scam has come under some good scrutiny lately, JGW, and I would suggest having a read or two on what the whole 'benevolence' giving is all about.
We have a system that is designed to funnel money from the poor to the rich while having the poor and middle class pay for that system. That's bad JGW. Hence the rise of authoritarianism.

There is little else in your post that I would disagree with and actually support.

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#309812 - 12/10/18 10:13 PM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Interesting premise that the people's wishes should completely override the wisdom of the Party organization. That's pretty much what happened in the Republican primaries in 2016. If the Party hacks had been a little more aggressive, they would have knocked out Trump as unqualified. Instead the "wisdom of the people" prevailed and they elected that abomination.

Maybe pure democracy is not such a good thing when you have an "uneducated" bunch of voters. (Trump's favorites!)

Ironic too, that a socialist state would NEVER let the people elect a fascist. They might let them decide between some qualified candidates and positions, but a Donald Trump would be precluded by the Party out of hand.


Neoliberal fascism anyone?

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#309816 - 12/11/18 06:42 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Chunk;
I surrender! I just wished I could have figured out just what you are, other than a cipher that is really great at labels!

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#309818 - 12/11/18 07:23 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
JGW, surrender what?
Your entitled to your political position, I'm just making the point that the current makeup of the democratic party power structure is anything but 'Left' in an historical or contemporary sense.
Cipher? No. I'm left. Not the 'socially liberal, fiscally conservative' centrist claptrap but left. Pro union, pro public, pro democracy, anti imperialist, anti war, anti racist, etc... Unlike the current configuration of the democratic party.
I've never hid my politics JGW. I thought I'd explained my positions clearly and made my argument clear as well. It's more than possible that i haven't but who really does with posting online? 90% of the time it's comparing posting styles.

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#309819 - 12/11/18 07:48 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16381
I think, chunk, what he is saying is that he's giving up on convincing you of anything. You have a position, no information that contradicts that position is of any use in persuading you.

What I find frustrating, and I think is reflected by others, is that from a policy perspective we agree with you. What we find disagreeable is the insistence that your views on political perspectives is the only one. The response, inevitably, is to attach labels. Most of those labels are inaccurate, in my view. From your perspective, correct me if I am wrong, there is no room for compromise, and any hint of centrist thought is deemed "neoliberal" (I'm not sure you are using the term correctly - but then, neither do "neoliberals"), or fascist, or right-wing, etc., etc., etc. I, personally, find it irritating and counterproductive to discussion of substance.


Edited by NW Ponderer (12/11/18 08:05 PM)
Edit Reason: extending remarks

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#309827 - 12/12/18 01:07 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
It's s'all good and I accept that JGW and I may be talking past each other.
It was only an argument to say that there is no left of any significance in the Democratic Party by design. Heretical for some, others not so much.
My view is not the only immaculate view on politics. Just an opinion I'm bothering to argue and defend.

Y'all see that first ever teacher strike at a Charter School this past week?
Errr.... Wat a minute. Are you for Charter Scools or the teachers?

Just kidding!

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#309832 - 12/12/18 10:38 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Two major resolutions coming from the 2017 AFL-CIO Convention:

(1) “whether candidates are elected from the Republican or Democratic Party, the interests of Wall Street have been protected and advanced, while the interests of labor and working people have generally been set back,” and (2) “the time has passed when we can passively settle for the lesser of two evils politics.”

I think the largest labor organization in the United States is done with labels as well. Perhaps the day has finally come for the Democratic Party to be rid of that old idea of unions.

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#309834 - 12/12/18 07:07 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I surrender insofar as even trying to figure out where you are, exactly, insofar as politics is concerned. You do not like the Democratic party, you really don't like the Republicans. You claim to be " Pro union, pro public, pro democracy, anti imperialist, anti war, anti racist, etc.." Then you start up with the labelling. When its all said and done I have absolutely no idea about where you actually stand. I suspect you think that you have explained it all - you have not. What you have done is, basically, leave me with the impression that you don't vote for either side and are expecting some kind of new political party that will save us all.

You have done an absolutely great job of confusion. I, on the other hand, simply give up trying to figure it all out. Seems a bit to confusing to make any sense to me. I am probably just to old to deal with the confusion.

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#309840 - 12/12/18 09:53 PM Re: What Left? [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
you don't vote for either side and are expecting some kind of new political party that will save us all.



Idealistic, no? But I have inside information that Chunkstyle may have voted more than once for third party candidates!

And I have a hunch that starting in 2020 we're gonna see a lot more candidates like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez who will transform the Democratic Party into some kind of new political party that will save us all.

'Cause down deep...you know the Democratic Party we have now is not going to bring about the important and difficult changes our government needs to make.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309841 - 12/12/18 10:00 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
What's confusing JGW?
My political label? What's my opinion of the environment?
Frankly, I started a debate on the concept of their not being a 'left' political presence in the Democratic party. I offered a critique of the parties direction and my own opinion on what 'Left' means in our historic political sense. I've also given examples on how the Democratic power structure actively thwarts any contemporary leftist candidacy by witholding it's support in the primaries. That it's alienated it's historic left leaning base of support, preferring tech and the FIRE economies.
I've also listed it's incredibly harmful policies over the last 35 years that could hardly be described as 'left'.
Finally, I've tried to explain that the Democratic party, as it currently exists, by calling itself the 'left' wing of our two party system, does a disservice to a true left political alternative.

That's the argument. What's the response been like:

Why is it important?
Loyalty to the party apparatus and organization over it's constituents.
An unwillingness to engage in a critique of some of the less savory positions of Democratic party.
Joking I might be a troll, Russian or otherwise.
A label thrower. Whatever that means.
Demanding I 'reveal' what my political position is.

Basically, my style has come under attack but, so far as I can tell, not the substance of my arguments, except that I'm not using 'labels' correctly and I shouldn't anyways cuz - bad.

If you want to ask me a specific question about my political opinion JGW go ahead and I'll answer you as direct as I can. I might not have to resign myself to calling the argument useless due to willful obtuseness.






Edited by chunkstyle (12/13/18 01:19 AM)

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#309843 - 12/13/18 02:22 AM Re: What Left? [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
you don't vote for either side and are expecting some kind of new political party that will save us all.



'Cause down deep...you know the Democratic Party we have now is not going to bring about the important and difficult changes our government needs to make.



There is a movement currently underway for breaking off a large chunk of the Democratic base, independents and new voter turnout as well as the traditional progressive third parties and create a new working class progressive party that would take up the causes that the Democratic Party won't.
One major differences from earlier attempts at this sort of thing is the national mood towards the two dominant political parties and labor unions finally admitting they no longer have a home in the existing Democratic Party.
Time will tell how successful it will be but theirs no denying that, after 2016, anythings possible.
The flaw of triangulation could be that there could emerge another place to go.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/13/18 02:27 AM)

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#309846 - 12/13/18 06:38 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
Now if we just had a parliamentary form of government, that would be swell! As it is, it just means more Republicans running everything.

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#309849 - 12/13/18 01:08 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Maybe PIA, but it has been moving that way anyhow since the first conservative revolution. As it stands, it's been money over everything for some time now.
The Democratic Party can't reform itself and has proven insufficient to deal with problems we face.
It won't make changes that could help it perform better. It will reflexively pull back more and more from its constituencies and curb political space to only true believers and donors as all corrupt organizations do. Or, as Hedges puts it, it's retreating to the forbidden city where, behind walls and armed protection, it will deliver new edicts and proclaimations of grand successes as all decaying institutions eventually do. It will come to see the problems stemming from democracy itself and will move to limit its access to only those that will perpetuate it's legitimacy.
This is where we are. There's some tremendous efforts going on to change the trajectory but as the party offers nothing to more and more people, decade after decade, a new party may be a final Hail Mary pass. It's a slim chance but isn't that the point of a Hail Mary?
The Democratic Party got rid of the counter forces, as imperfect as they were, long ago with the exile of it's left. It got rid of any force for equality, fraternity and solidarity. That was keeping our facist tendencies in check for awhile but not any longer. We now have a party committed to heirarchy, loyalty and fealty. Good for some, not so good for most. I'm afraid that were heading to the logical political conclusion. It's not going back to what it was and, in the end, the Democratic Party will side with fascism as well.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/13/18 01:21 PM)

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#309850 - 12/13/18 01:22 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8914
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Here’s the roster of The Left that’s emerging to run for president in 2020.

Top Ten Dems Today
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#309851 - 12/13/18 05:22 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
Quote:
it's been money over everything for some time now.

It's always been money over everything. That's not going to change.
But smart money makes smart decisions. That's why you don't see a lot of steam locomotives or gaslights on the streets anymore.

Quote:
The Democratic Party can't reform itself and has proven insufficient to deal with problems we face.

It's not the party's job to reform itself. That's our job as voters.

The Republican Party has already embraced nationalism, racism, corporatism, authoritarianism and a wide swath of isms directly associated with fascism. I really don't think we're seeing the same tendencies in the Democratic Party.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309852 - 12/13/18 07:24 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
3rd parties have been tried, again, and again, and again. They have all failed. The simple fact is that we have a binary political system in this country. Its always been that way and only the names have changed. Republicans used to be Tories and then an argument over slavery happened and Republicans that didn't support slavery started the Republicans and the Tories didn't have enough members left to support their party.

That can happen to the Democrats too. If the democratic socialist feel they have enough folks on their side they can try to recreate the Democratic party. If not then they better stick with the Democrats as it is, right now, the current party of resistance. A Binary system means there are two sides and folks gotta decide what side they are on. If, for instance, the Democratic Socialists determine that they are strong enough to do it on their own, and they are wrong, they will have given the election to the other side. Same holds true with the Republicans.

The trick, for both sides is to fully explain what each side believes and supports. What now happens is the both sides try to demonize the other side. The real problem is twofold. The first problem are people who support one side over the other and have the big bucks to make their points. The second problem are the lies told, by either side, to make their point. Oh, there is a third problem - that group of voters who believe in not only their side but all the lies about the other side. All this, in turn, boils down to big bucks and lies, and closed minds and lies. The unfortunate truth is that when the supremes allowed big bucks into politics everything became skewed. Suddenly the Republicans, favored by the upper 1% could simply out spend the other side which also meant their lies could be made more believable, their promises better sounding, etc. This, in turn, forced the Democrats to spend much of their time trying to get money so that they could fight back. Over time, I think, the Dems became more obsessed with money than politics and they suddenly lost most of the states as well as congress and the presidency.

I am not sure there is any way to deal with the lies. This becomes especially true give the number of folks, on either side, that refuse to hear anything bad about 'their' side and buy ALL the baloney of 'their' side. The money, however, can be fixed. The first thing is for Congress including the senate, passes a bill that states that, for political purposes, Money is not speech and speech is not money. The other part is to pass legislation that also states, for political or tax purposes - corporations are not the same as a single human being. I think this is within the purview of congress and is probably doable. Then the only thing left to do is to educate the electorate (I wish us all luck with that one).

Insfar as voting is concerned every ballot needs a "none of the above" option. The other thing is to make voting mandatory. Incidentally, mandatory voting does not mean that people must vote on something but they do have to submit a ballot, even if blank.

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#309855 - 12/14/18 02:26 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13419
Loc: Whittier, California
The Republican Party is the Oligarch Party.
The only reason oligarchs need numerical presence is that starving peasants will kill anyone who threatens their gleaner's patch.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309860 - 12/14/18 04:49 PM Re: What Left? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
The Republican Party is fully owned by Our Corporate Overlords.

But don't ever think that the Democrats are completely autonomous.
Donald Trump was not in the Oligarch's playbook, they expected(like everyone else) that Hillary Clinton would be delivering the goods behind the scenes right now rather than Trump's hamfisted economic policy. Clinton would have been far better for all concerned, rich and poor alike.

But as is almost always the case...the rich would get richer and the poor poorer.

We seriously need an adjustment where the rich gain a little less and the poor finally get a break. Even for just a little while.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309861 - 12/14/18 05:03 PM Re: What Left? [Re: Greger]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14420
Loc: Florida
And let me chime in with the rest of the Centrists that third parties don't work. Theodore Roosevelt proved it, George Wallace proved it, Ross Perot proved it, Ralph Nader proved it..."this time" wont be different.

I think our best bet is to look at the dubious success of the Tea Party. Split the party from within and replace the moderates with the likes of Ocasio-Cortez. This is possible, doable, and currently underway.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309863 - 12/14/18 06:08 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Again - I vote for Democratic candidates, I do that, basically, because I simply don't agree with them Running under the Republican banner. For me its that simple. There was a time, years ago, when I would sometimes vote for a Republican I liked but those have dried up and blown away. As I have said, again and again, we currently have a binary election system where you are on one side or the other - there is no middle ground and quibble insofar as being picky about candidates. We all know what the other side is so picking is pretty simple for me. This is even true of local elections. Even there the choice is stark.

Democratic Social Democrats are simply a group trying to distinguish themselves from plain old Democrats. I have nothing against that. There are LOTS of groups within the Democratic umbrella. There used to be the same thing for Republicans but, no more, they kiss the Jackass ring or they are not Republican and that also seems pretty simple to me. Ranking on, for instance, the Democratic party is, basically, not only a waste of time but actually threatens. On the other hand there will be some who think that the current election thing is not binary and just cannot vote Democratic, cannot vote Republican, cannot vote at all. These folks are just as responsible for Jackass politics as those who actually voted for them, as far as I am concerned.

I keep thinking that one should list reasons for not voting Republican. I have, however, come the conclusion that if folks haven't figured it out yet that is unlikely to happen. Instead we now have Jackass actually threatening revolt, by his base, should he get deposed for any reason. Interesting times?

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#309874 - 12/15/18 01:44 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
I had a little epiphany today. I realized that the most important political idea is that you shouldn't let people who hate government and want it to fail, run the government. Right there is the basic problem. Republicans want government to fail, so they do everything in their power to see that it does.

Now I understand that some (most?) of us want something or several things the government does to fail. But then again, the vast majority of us are not anarchists enough to want everything to fail. That's extremism (right or left), and only a tiny fraction of us are that extreme. Most of those people just leave and go to some other country more to their liking. The few that remain do stuff like blow up day care centers in Oklahoma City or run for Congress as a Republican.

There is a certain attraction to the Republican Party for outlaws of all sorts, because that is the Party of Less Government. Specifically because those people (like Trump) feel like the Government should not interfere with their actions, even if their actions hurt other people. This is why so many Republican office holders get into legal trouble. It's in their very nature.

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#309885 - 12/15/18 07:24 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13419
Loc: Whittier, California
When Republicans talk about government being a failure, they aren't complaining, they're boasting. It's not a bug, it's a feature!
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309892 - 12/15/18 11:16 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8081
Loc: North San Diego County
True, but they should be right up front with it when they campaign. Like "Here's a list of government functions I plan to destroy."

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#309899 - 12/16/18 07:17 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I think the current administration has been pretty clear. It has, virtually without exception, put incompetent criminals in charge of all agencies. They are all, right now, being investigated and the Dems are sure to go after them as well. The latest was the guy in charge of the Department of the Interior (Zinke) quit as soon as his investigation was announced. Sticking to their plan, get rid of any and all regulations this is just the latest.

Remember, good conservatives, hate ALL regulation. If it regulates, its bad, and should be shutdown or, preferably, looted for private and industrial gain first. Apparently Zinke has stuck to that plan like glue.

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