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#309164 - 11/02/18 07:31 PM Re: the economy [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17047
Loc: Florida
Quote:
But it didn't have to be.


Yes it did. It has played out many times and always with the same result.

Karl Marx predicted all of this. From industrialization to automation to globalization to revolution. Marx saw religion as a tool of the Bourgeoisie to give false hope to the Proletariat. Yet he also saw it as a drug to ease the pain of the workers caught in squalid conditions and unable to rise above them.

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people"Karl Marx


Quote:
Marx showed that recurrent crises were not an accidental side effect of capitalism, but a necessary and inherent feature, explains Nick Nesbitt, Princeton University professor of French and Italian and editor of The Concept in Crisis: Reading Capital Today. “&#8203;He shows that the source of value in capitalism is living labor. He also shows that capitalism nonetheless tends to eliminate living labor as a necessary dimension of its development,” Nesbitt says. That contradiction means capitalism is never stable, but forever shifting in and out of crises: The system depends on human labor while simultaneously eradicating it.
Capitalism is unfolding exactly as Marx predicted
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#309170 - 11/03/18 12:01 AM Re: the economy [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California


Well I suppose if all we ever do is sit back and "let it unfold" instead of actively engage in a deliberate effort to shape and harness it, then yes I imagine it will revert to a tool that speaks to the baser instincts of the failure of the human condition.

Fire can be used to heat our homes, cook our food, even light the way, or it can just be set capriciously to any fuel and thrown about with the intent of burning down the village.

It all depends on how we harness fire.
It is up to us, not Karl Marx, to decide how capitalism is allowed to function, and under what regulations.
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#309171 - 11/03/18 02:04 AM Re: the economy [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17047
Loc: Florida
Quote:
It is up to us, not Karl Marx, to decide how capitalism is allowed to function,


Capitalism is unsustainable. Take a look around you. We're wallowing in our own filth. The oceans are dying, the atmosphere is changing as we release more and more carbon into it. We are killing the very planet that sustains us. We decided long ago how capitalism would be allowed to function.
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#309179 - 11/03/18 06:46 PM Re: the economy [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
It is up to us, not Karl Marx, to decide how capitalism is allowed to function,


Capitalism is unsustainable. Take a look around you. We're wallowing in our own filth. The oceans are dying, the atmosphere is changing as we release more and more carbon into it. We are killing the very planet that sustains us. We decided long ago how capitalism would be allowed to function.


The real issue that will make capitalism unsustainable is the twin dragons of AI and advanced robotics. Technological unemployment will take capitalism down, or at least render it unrecognizable under the fig leaf.
_________________________
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#309180 - 11/03/18 09:39 PM Re: the economy [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17047
Loc: Florida
Did you know that Marx even predicted AI and advanced robots?

“Once adopted into the production process of capital, the means of labour passes through different metamorphoses, whose culmination is the… automatic system of machinery… set in motion by an automaton, a moving power that moves itself; this automaton consisting of numerous mechanical and intellectual organs, so that the workers themselves are cast merely as its conscious linkages.” More
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#309184 - 11/04/18 04:24 AM Re: the economy [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Did you know that Marx even predicted AI and advanced robots?

“Once adopted into the production process of capital, the means of labour passes through different metamorphoses, whose culmination is the… automatic system of machinery… set in motion by an automaton, a moving power that moves itself; this automaton consisting of numerous mechanical and intellectual organs, so that the workers themselves are cast merely as its conscious linkages.” More


Oh I'm sure a gazillion people have been steadily predicting it forever, but when it's Marx, people jump up and point at him.
Walt Disney predicted it, Jules Verne predicted it, Elon Musk has been predicting it since his fourteenth birthday.

It's just that, in the last two or three years, we're now starting to see the actual nuts and bolts that make it tick.





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#309188 - 11/04/18 06:00 PM Re: the economy [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17047
Loc: Florida
Personally, if I were you, I'd worry a lot more about whether or not we have enough of a future on this planet to be replaced by machines.

I don't think even Marx was able to foresee the damage to the environment caused by end stage capitalism. And I'm not sure the philosophers and economists you cite are quite his equals. Any tech billionaire can predict flying cars, but can he predict exactly the way world politics and economies will unfold a century and a half from now?
Marx did. And it would be best if we took note of where we are headed and the consequences of runaway capitalism.
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#309196 - 11/04/18 10:29 PM Re: the economy [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Personally, if I were you, I'd worry a lot more about whether or not we have enough of a future on this planet to be replaced by machines.

I don't think even Marx was able to foresee the damage to the environment caused by end stage capitalism. And I'm not sure the philosophers and economists you cite are quite his equals. Any tech billionaire can predict flying cars, but can he predict exactly the way world politics and economies will unfold a century and a half from now?
Marx did. And it would be best if we took note of where we are headed and the consequences of runaway capitalism.


Not disagreeing with you, it's not mutually exclusive.
Chances are pretty good we will still be kicking around on the big blue marble in about five years when these smart and agile contraptions actually start replacing a lot of labor, and a good many bolted down lesser cousins are already doing just that today.
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#309199 - 11/05/18 02:05 AM Re: the economy [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17047
Loc: Florida
Machines can make widgets much faster than people. But machines don't ever buy any widgets. If people don't buy widgets there's no reason for machines to make them. Thus the widget industry collapses because no one can afford widgets anymore.

The capitalists answer is to make widgets even cheaper yet...

This business of replacing people with machines has been going on since the industrial revolution started. Did you know that in South Africa they call traffic lights "robots". Citation
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#309202 - 11/05/18 03:09 AM Re: the economy [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Machines can make widgets much faster than people. But machines don't ever buy any widgets. If people don't buy widgets there's no reason for machines to make them. Thus the widget industry collapses because no one can afford widgets anymore.

The capitalists answer is to make widgets even cheaper yet...

This business of replacing people with machines has been going on since the industrial revolution started. Did you know that in South Africa they call traffic lights "robots". Citation


I'll have to ask some SA buddies, never heard that before.
But then again, I didn't know Die Antwoord hated Lady Gaga so much either.

Maybe I don't know nuthin! ROTFMOL

Eventually no one can afford widgets, and the capitalists at the top will have to figure out a way for everyone to have an income of some kind.
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